12 ms·

Bitsummit 2023: Steam Decks everywhere, no VR, and impressive indie games

164 points by ekianjo 3y ago

staz 3y ago
Seems like site got /. copy at https://archive.is/IiBZo https://archive.is/IiBZo one of their linked youtube video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw
- detuur 3y ago
  That is missing virtually all of the pictures (which were all full-resolution jpegs, blowing the page size up). For me the site just went offline, it shows a 500. I'm betting it's hosted on a smal colo. They should consider cloudflare or another cdn/accelerator.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  For those who can't see the site right now, here are some videos from the article on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9W_cFUWYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9W_cFUWYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw
wkat4242 3y ago
VR is absolutely amazing. I don't really understand why it's not taking off in the mainstream. Especially with the low prices of quest or pico headsets. Not that I really care, there's enough usecases where it adds value (eg simming) to support a cottage industry. And I'm not a trend follower anyway, I like to make my own choices. Most of the things I'm really into are very niche. But it would be nice to see a bit more content for it.
- toyg 3y ago
  When someone mentions VR I cannot help but think "...AND JEEEESUS WEPT!" Damn you, Dan Harmon, damn you.
  - DANmode 3y ago
    Jim Rash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4FGzE4endQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4FGzE4endQ
- astrange 3y ago
  I haven't used recent technology, but I mostly associate VR games with motion sickness. This is actually a reason 2D games can exclude women; they get motion sick more easily and nobody tunes the games for them!
  - 255 3y ago
    Is there evidence for this?
    - astrange 3y ago
      As I made an existence statement, you can look up any female streamer/vtuber and hear them say they can't play an FPS today because they ran out of dramamine. (I know like three.)
  - VanTodi 3y ago
    Most Games have comfort settings Like Teleportation, Fading etc. My wife gets motion sick pretty fast with VR, but reading a book while driving is no issue. It's rather strange to me
  - winternewt 3y ago
    I find it really confusing that people call games 2D just because they're displayed in monoscopic instead of stereoscopic 3D.
- seanthemon 3y ago
  Still quite niche, not a lot of good marketing around them other than you look goofy when you use them, they make you sici/nauseous, you need a lot of space, you need a powerful pc, relatively unknown which apps/games run in VR etc Every point shrinks the target market Now we have apple with their exclusive vr headset and this will alienate more people until the market stabilizes - maybe like what happened with touch screen phones in the 10s
- haunter 3y ago
  $$$ PCs are expensive. You spent ~$1500 on a good uptodate setup. Now a Valve Index will cost another $1000. Not worth it for the niche.
  - ponyous 3y ago
    You can buy a quest and don't need a PC for $300.
    - croes 3y ago
      You only get mobile game graphics quality on a Quest headset
    - willis936 3y ago
      That's a poor substitute. And also comes with Meta baggage. I can't speak for anyone else, but I will never invite a meta product into my home.
      - mellosouls 3y ago
        So you don't know it's a poor substitute then?
        willis936 3y ago
        What makes you say that? Whether or not I buy one has no bearing over how much computational power a device has: which is what makes it a poor substitute.
        mellosouls 3y ago
        It's not just about the computational power though, is it? It's a different type of platform and regardless, the second half of your comment ruled out the value of the first.
        3y ago
- pmx 3y ago
  I love my quest but I don't have the space in my house to safely play the more energetic games and it can't be used outside. I would love to see a headset that can cope with being used in the sun.
  - elcritch 3y ago
    The lack of outside usage is annoying. Though I just picked up a Kat C2, a VR treadmill. It’s been fun!
  - falcolas 3y ago
    > I would love to see a headset that can cope with being used in the sun. The biggest problem is the lenses work perfectly in reverse, transforming the parallel rays of light from the sun into a single spot on the LCD screen, literally burning it. Until we get a different display technology, outside usage is probably going to remain extremely limited.
- VanTodi 3y ago
  IMHO the entry to VR is for most people to cumbersome. - you should try it first to check how bad your motion sickness gets when playing. If you have it bad, all your bought VR equipment is unusable. - you need specific hardware for it which (mostly) only works for gaming (and maybe porn). Putting 400+ bucks into the hardware for that sole purpose is to much for most people. - you need a dedicated place for it. You can play it sitting down, but that's not even half the fun of VR. I have a VR headset myself and really like it, but even for me it's a hustle to free up the space and set everything up for a session. I rather pick up my steamdeck and play wherever I might be.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  I think it's all about convenience. I've only had a tiny exposure to VR and it was all very nice, but disorientating and I had to be stood up whilst playing. I guess the disorientation is something you get used to, but if I want to relax and play a game, I want to be sat down which would also help with not having the usual balance cues due to the headset blocking sight. Convenience is where the Steam Deck wins - the ability to hit the power button to put it to sleep almost instantly in the middle of a game and to then just pick it up later and carry on is really nice. I had stopped playing computer games as I found it difficult to allocate time to go and play on a PC, but am now getting back into playing games as I can just pick up the Deck, and be continuing a game within seconds. I guess it's a similar phenomenon as casual phone games, but applied to Steam games. For VR to truly take off, I reckon it'll need the headset to shrink to being like a pair of glasses and the immersion will likely suffer, but the convenience factor is what'll win. In some ways I see it as being akin to 3D films - people would rather just watch a 2D film without needing special glasses as it's more convenient, though to be fair, 3D adds very little to the film watching experience in my opinion (story and acting performances are what makes a great film, not 3D CGI effects).
  - tormeh 3y ago
    I liked the Quest Pro idea of having a solid gap between the screen and your face that you can see through, so you get to have some connection to reality. I bet it helps with motion sickness and cooling, as well as making it less disorienting to put on. Generally I think HMDs are great, but VR is only going to work for very specific game genres.
  - highspeedbus 3y ago
    It's kind of how playing guitar is nice and all, but majority of players get lazy to stand up and prefer to do it sitting in front of computer.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  >I don't really understand why it's not taking off in the mainstream. Two things: Price, and VR in reality isn't as cool and sexy as portrayed in science fiction. Apple's at least trying to improve or at least shake up the latter, albeit at the cost of worsening the former.
- bluescrn 3y ago
  It's amazing for about 15 minutes, then you start to feel the motion sickness, or the sweat starts to build up around the warm headset. It's just not comfortable enough for prolonged use. As well as those issues, there's the discomfort of being so isolated from the world, especially if in a home/office with other people around. And other (more solveable) issues, such as text legibility.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    The motion sickness really depends on the refresh rate (so currently on the price). Very much like with phones, the faster the display gets the fewer people will experience issues.
    - bullen 3y ago
      Not only, it's a tradeoff: visual fidelity vs. power. Not a single game is custom made for VR except HL:A... It's too expensive to develop for, if Roblox on Quest 2 sucks VR is over.
      - viraptor 3y ago
        I get where you're coming from but "not a single game" is far from true. There's lots of games made strictly for VR, including great hits like BeatSaber.
        bullen 3y ago
        BeatSaber is Unity, Unity has GC (garbage collection = stutters) and even if they worked around it for such a simple game it doesn't matter. On the other hand if you want a action MMO (something we never succeeded in doing yet, Planetside 2 was a latency fest) you need to go vanilla C/C++. Engines make games economical (in zero interest rate times) but the value of the games is lower because nothing is invented, they are just copying the wheel. I never buy Unity/Unreal games or non-multiplayer games.
        3y ago
- V1ndaar 3y ago
  As someone who spends a good amount of time on iracing, what annoys me most about VR not taking off more is the lack of improvements in VR headsets. We just get more high-end stuff like the Varjo Aero, Bigscreen Beyond or Pimax Crystal, but since the release of the HP Reverb G2 there haven't been any sensibly priced options anymore. And things like the Quest or Pico are just pretty rubbish for PCVR (compression, dealing with flimsy USB C connectors, Oculus software etc.).
- w4rh4wk5 3y ago
  I have a Valve Index, a big enough room, and everything set up ready to go. Still, I hardly ever use it. My problem is simply that most VR games are too janky to control. Half Life: Alyx and Boneworks stood out as they were acceptable -- but beyond that, it's very hard for me to enjoy VR games.
  - dspillett 3y ago
    > a big enough room This is the key problem for a lot of gamers. The cost issue puts more casual users off, but avid gamers are used to dropping $$$ for their hobby every upgrade cycle so as the hardware prices continue to slip downwards that is less and less their main concern. Having a private bit of space big enough and clear enough is not as those singing the virtues of VR seem to think. > most VR games are too janky Of course, the amount of good content that truly takes advantage of the kit is a concern when spending the $$$ even with the kit being much cheaper now than a few years ago. There might be other things that a given person can invest that resource on which will increase their enjoyment much more overall (better screens, a really comfy chair, actual games, …).
- iopq 3y ago
  I tried it once, it was some kind of skiing game. When I had a big jump I immediately felt nauseous because I expected to feel like my body is in free fall, but I didn't, so it felt weird
- elcapitan 3y ago
  > I don't really understand why it's not taking off in the mainstream. "Non-VR games, books, movies, music already get people deeply immersed without putting their head into a bucket" (Jonathan Blow in a recent stream). To me that pretty much sums it up. Your mileage may vary, but I don't think most people are actually waiting for that type of experience.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jimmySixDOF 3y ago
    This point of view kind of assumes that all immersion is the same and so why bother adding this bizarre contraption to your face. But then why bother buying a TV and build your living room seating around it if you could just sit and read a book ? As more 3D 6DOF experiences are made possible and built there will be more usefulness in the extra immersion levels you get from putting your head into that bucket. Besides it should be more important what is going on inside your head than what is on it.
    - kmos17 3y ago
      With a TV you can still grab the pop-corn bowl or talk to people around you. I think the immersion will make sense for people living on their own but even then it's too much immersion imo, so remains to be seen if Apple's version by allowing you to still interact with your environment will at least make the pop-corn bowl conundrum moot for these people. I can't see wearing this at all in a family/group environment (even the apple TV one).
- seer 3y ago
  VR games are immersive and exhausting, you kinda have to be “in the mood” for one, and it kinda works mostly if you’re living alone, as its just very socially awkward to do your vr thing while someone else is in the room. I think that’s mostly because you are doing something physical (interesting) but nobody else is allowed to participate. Which can feel kinda rude. Compare that to normal games which you can “relax to” at the end of your work day. I love playing beat saber myself, one of the more “casual” games, but its always been weird with people around. Its not a coincidence that the apple vision pitch was mostly “this is the best HD screen that you’ve seen you just put it on your head” with a lot less movement emphasis, and I think it has a bigger chance of “taking off” than the current gen of vr, hopefully.
  - andybak 3y ago
    I generally don't play games with someone else in the room because it feels a bit rude. I don't tend to hang out with people that want to watch someone else play a game. Is that an age thing? I might use VR when someone else is in the house however. That's different.
    - yreg 3y ago
      Depends on why someone is in the room, right? Having friends over, ignoring them and playing a game sounds rude, unless they are into it. But even then, it would be more polite to let the guests play and the host watch. Sharing a flat with a roommate and playing a game while they do their own thing in the same room is certainly not rude.
  - yreg 3y ago
    During parties at my place my guests used to often play BeatSaber on HTC Vive. The video is mirrored to a TV screen at the table, audio is on. Colored smart lights connected to the tv provide mood lighting and react to what's happening in the game. We talk, drink, etc. and watch the person play in the background. Of course players swap and compete against each other (there is an arcade mode for that).
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > I think that’s mostly because you are doing something physical (interesting) but nobody else is allowed to participate. Which can feel kinda rude. That's a good point but it's just a limitation with current-gen tech. There's already headsets that can 'see' other players and incorporate them into the experience. Like the HTC Vive Focus 3. This is why those are used a lot for interactive experiences at trade shows etc. They are much more suitable than an Oculus Quest. Sharing on an external screen (on a quest you can easily stream the output to any chromecast) is something I also do when I'm giving demonstrations.
- winternewt 3y ago
  It's just too messy with the cable twisting around, all the room space you need etc. I have a 1st generation Vive where one of the cables keeps falling out of its socket. It's all just such a bother and I keep getting motion sick. Not getting another headset until it's cable free, and I don't want an Oculus b/c of FB affiliation.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  I had a rented Oculus Quest 2 headset, and it completely put me off ever buying one. It was actually quite fun for a party where everyone was trying out, but: - it got very uncomfortable very fast - everyone who tried it was drenched in face sweat after ~10 minutes, not a pleasant sensation - the games are very un-interactive compared to traditional games. Even moving about is usually very limited, it felt like playing Myst or Zork again - when a game did offer smooth movement, the movement without moving was extremely disorienting, and would have easily caused motion sickness if I hadn't stopped immediately Overall, the fun of looking around a VR space is completely overshadowed by the extreme limitations in control and motion and comfort. I'm much more immersed playing a PC RPG than than a VR game, and I see nothing about any upcoming headset (including Apple's) that seems to have a change to fix this. I'm not even sure it is in principle fixable, given the optical (need something to block out light to show true blacks) and geometric (need room to actually move) limitations. Probably only some kid of direct brain-computer interface could bridge these gaps.
- dgellow 3y ago
  Current devices look too inconvenient to use IMHO. I expect to be sweating due to the headset, and to be exhausted after use. I just checked, the pico 4 seems to be around 450€ in Germany. For something that doesn’t seem to be convenient or comfortable, that’s way to much. I already have a nice setup to play games or consume content I enjoy, and don’t really see how a VR would fit into this. I expect to use it a few times and have some fun, then forget about it.
- entropi 3y ago
  Personally, I just don't see the appeal. A good game is quite immersive without needing any cumbersome goggles. I can't imagine a bad one being immersive with any sort of goggles. To be fair, I think the same thing about fancy graphics as well; but people seem to love fancy graphics with 4k resolution and ray tracing or whatever the newest gimmick is. In my opinion, the only significant effect of any graphics fancier than ps3 era is just increased costs, less finished/polished games, and the necessity to appeal to a wider audience. I think about the same thing about the whole VR thing. If it becomes mainstream, I think there would be hardly any games that take advantage of it; and most of the games would just focus on the spectacle, which gets old extremely quickly.
- dncornholio 3y ago
  VR is very popular in sim-racing and other cockpit games but outside of that it's just a gimmick IMO. Games like Beatsaber is where it shines but it's a lot of money for such casual games.
- dathinab 3y ago
  In no specific order: - Motion sickness, or the fear of it. Not from looking around but from "walking" around. And the number of games which are "mainstream appalling", benefit a lot from VR and don't contain walking around are limited. Just to put it into context people getting motion sickness when stopping "walking on a treadmill while watching TV" is non negligible while at the same time people which don't have that issue often never even heard of it/considered it a thing. (Simply because in our mostly non VR world it's a non-topic.) Through at the same time it's not uncommon for people which do have motion sickness while gaming issues to still be able to use VR. - Too little occasions to properly relaxed, and longer term (more then just 5min) try it out for yourself without buying it. For many people it looks like VR is very little value added for them (because many people don't do supper immersive gaming, but instead just want to relax a bit after work or similar) - (potentially wrong) believe that "cheaper" VR headsets are crap - space, it's easy to underestimate how many people live in small apartments where getting a big enough free space to not hit anything isn't easy, or if it's often in a shared space where people might find it's usage for VR annoying - price 1, e.g. the pico 4 still cost 400€ where i live for many people this is not an amount of many they would spend just to try something out (and for many it's also not much at all) - price 2, 400€ for something people often see as an additional investment just/exclusive for gaming, while e.g. a laptop/tablet is also seen as usable for office, and while traveling and for watching movies (with others) etc. And while some of this are misconceptions, they still are there. And if you buy something "just for gaming" and can decide between a pico 4 and a switch or playstation bundle with a grate game in it it's clear what many people will choose - no killer use case, like VR exclusive games everyone wants to play or similar. It's a bit of an hen/egg problem. Without wide usage there is too much commercial risk for creating such a thing but without it it's harder to get wide usage. There are some thing which get close to such a thing tho, like beat saber . - glasses/bad eyes, some people simply can't wear contact lenses and while they did add some features to some headsets to "compensate bad eyes" they have sever limitations (bad eyesight isn't as simple as you focus point being a bit off, you also can e.g. have rotations, twists or folds, and getting that just slightly wrong can be a very exhausting or even headache inducing experience for the users) Anyway I think the main problem is "perception" in many different ways as well as eco system wrt. non game use cases. Which is also why I think Apple did what it did, at some point you need to start if you want to succeed in a emergend field even if you loose money. The problem is you don't know when the VR field will explode and entering it too early can be too costly. My guess is for VR to take off we need an reasonable priced headset+equipment set which you practically can use by itself as a laptop replacement for non gaming tasks and "simple/short" games. Means: - portable/compact enough - usable in public (but doesn't need as fancy features as what apple did) - ~4+h battery live for office tasks, 8h would be better - comfortable usable when having a power supply (like similar to one from a laptop) connected - with not too long brakes usable for 8-10h - usable by most people, at least for office task and some simple games - full laptop functionality, e.g. browsing or playing non VR games like idk. minesweeper - reasonable affordable base models (as full laptop replacement that would be ~800€) and nice still reasonable priced "good" (not highest end) models (~<1500€) - support for external displays to make it usable for presentations - fast text input, somehow without hurting portability Most of this is sound like something which could be archived in coming years depending on technical advancement. Some main issues which aren't can't be solved by innovations in other sectors (e.g better batteries): - as it's not conveniently flat and square like a laptop convenient daily travel portability is harder to archive, including the fast text input without carrying a nearly laptop sized keyboard with you - hair + headset, people care about their hair not getting messed up - usability for everyone, even if your head is large or small or you have some neck issues, or eye issues, or motion sickness etc. personalized devices help, but drive the price up and prevent sharing
- fassssst 3y ago
  I liked my Quest 2 a lot for about two weeks until the novelty totally wore off. I just don’t want immersive gaming experiences. My Switch satisfies my occasional gaming itch, and is easy to just pick up and play for 15 minutes without taking myself out of the world.
- jrm4 3y ago
  Purely in theory. Seriously. I have a Quest 2, sidequest and all, and the selection of actually good stuff is incredibly minimal. I have a big picture theory about all of this; the experience of "computer entertainment" is FAR MORE STRONGLY rooted in "other humans" than many geeks would believe, and VR (oddly) hasn't really done much significant at all in that space. For me and the family and people I know, first the Wii, and later the Steam Deck (esp with Jackbox games, that brings MY parents into the fold, and I'm in my 40s) has been SIGNIFICANTLY more impactful than an individual putting on a headset.
  - ianbutler 3y ago
    I like VR a lot, but pretty much all my gaming time these days is to connect with friends. Most don't have VR and of the few who do we've tried to game together and the networking was so clunky that it was more frustrating than fun. The solo experiences can be really neat but I already live alone so if my choices are the more isolating activity or the activity I'll do with friends, I'm choosing the second every time. In practice this means good old PC fps games.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Oh yeah good point, I exclusively play single player games because I don't like multiplayer at all. I used to do some call of duty but the screaming kids annoyed me too much.
  - ixaxaar 3y ago
    The "no thanks, I have friends" argument?
    - jrm4 3y ago
      Literally, yes? Or I like to go online and make them?
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Oh yeah I do have a PC so my catalogue is a lot larger. I do play a lot of sims also (I used to pilot real planes also). But the solitude of the current generation is just because most headsets can only support one player in the experience. Vive Focus 3 can do this pretty well already, I've done interactive experiences with many other people in the same space.
- stuckinhell 3y ago
  It causes nausea for a lot of people. Plus alot of people don't want to move around after work. I think a vr headset that puts people in the world but still lets them play with controller like settings would increase adoption a bit, however the nausea part is a big deal.
- Loughla 3y ago
  So I'm trying to get into VR, but I'm not even sure where to start. Any forum posts regarding what direction to go for headsets and what-not always boil down to fanboy posts shilling for their favorite thing. So I'll try here - I have an extremely high end gaming PC and am looking for VR options to tag along with it. What suggestions for systems/games do you have?
  - asynchronous 3y ago
    What is your budget and desired ecosystem? The Valve Index is (imo) the highest quality VR headset right now in terms of fidelity and comfort and tracking, but is also one of the most expensive and hardest to set up. The Quest 2 on the other hand is exceedingly affordable, is portable, and can be run standalone, all of which are very very cool. But then you take the Meta plunge.
    - Loughla 3y ago
      Budget is anywhere from $0-$700 (or so), and I would like to avoid anything with facebook.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        These two requirements are basically incompatible. Buy a used vive on ebay and start there maybe.
        asynchronous 3y ago
        Yeah that’s a really weird price range. I’d say go up and buy an Index if possible, or go down and buy a Quest with a fake facebook account. The pimax is an option but it’s above that range.
        Loughla 3y ago
        I picked an arbitrary number. Let's say up to $1500. How about that?
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  A screen strapped to your face in a clumsy world is less immersive than even a third person television game with tight controls. Consider RED STEEL 2 for the Wii. Motion control gun and sword play. FPS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO91n5phQQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO91n5phQQY To me this looks way more immersive than any VR shooter game. You can really move around and do things that you can't do irl. Even if your controls allow that in VR, it's going to feel wrong. It's going to make you think about the screen on your face. Yeah yeah you have the cool VR moments where you duck in and out of cover. Those are cool and immersive because you genuinely don't need to do anything you can't do irl. But they get boring eventually.
  - two_handfuls 3y ago
    My experience is the complete opposite. Flight simulators outside of VR feel like just a pale echo of what a VR flight sim can do.
    - spywaregorilla 3y ago
      Sure. Chair simulators. They're genuinely good. They're not what people really want out of VR though.
- royaltheartist 3y ago
  I've personally been hesitant about VR for a few reasons. As someone with glasses, I'm not comfortable with purchasing something that won't easily accommodate without requiring that I continue to pay a premium for prescription insets. It's a deal breaker, honestly. But then there's the price to value ratio. There doesn't seem to be anything that is a must-play killer app, and while the catalog seems to have some gems it still leaves me with the impression I might drop a few hundred dollars for a couple hours of entertainment. VR seems like a radical change in design philosophy from the last 30-40 years of game development, and devs are still working out the specific language and techniques that are pertinent to it as a medium While the Quest 2 is the cheapest on on the market, I'll be damned if I'm giving money to Meta and from there headsets start to ramp up drastically in price, and still have inconveniences like needing to be tethered to a PC Really it isn't any one thing that's an issue so much as a bunch of smaller issues that make it seem like it's just not worth at the moment unless you got to drop on an item that's still at the niche phase. This will all probably improve over time though, and more people might start adopting
  - two_handfuls 3y ago
    As someone with glasses: I have tried both insets and larger headsets that can fit glasses. The insets are absolutely the way to go. Just think of them as part of the headset's price. You're right that VR is currently relatively expensive in terms of "entertainment per dollar" compared to other activities. If you still find enjoyment in non-VR video games for example, there's nothing wrong with continuing to doing what you like.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  I want to be invested in a game, not immersed. Gloom Spawn are terrifying enough without feeling like I'm actually being hunted. And I don't think I would virtually shit bricks if I did, so I'd have to take off a headset to attend to that fun little mess.
olvy0 3y ago
Hijacking this, kind of off-topic: I might have a chance to visit the Tokyo Game Show in September, and I'm wondering if it's worth my time, or will it just be a purely commercial venue with no hands-on experience. If it's even remotely like the Bitsummit described in the OP then that would be awesome. Some background: I'm not a gamer, I simply don't have the time to be one, but I'm very interested in gaming news, game engines, and well, games. I also don't know Japanese, unfortunately, I'm just visiting Tokyo for a short time. Anyone been to a previous Game Show (or a similar big event) and can say if it's worth it?
- ekianjo 3y ago
  Been then many times. Depends a lot of you go on business days or public days. Public days will mean long queues and not much time on anything during the day. Business days you can do a lot more and there is a large indie section where you can meet with indies just like at the Bitsummit.
  - olvy0 3y ago
    Thanks! since I'll be going on a public day, I'll think if it's worth my time. Maybe I'll go anyway just for the general vibe.
- dgellow 3y ago
  Reading your comment makes me want to visit a “game engine show” :) Not sure what that would look like, but that sounds fun and way more interesting than a gaming show!
  - pphysch 3y ago
    GDC is basically a "game engine show"
- sp3n 3y ago
  i will be exhibiting my indie game at the Tokyo Game Show in September, even though there will be huge elaborate booths for the massive/AAA studios, i can confirm that there will be a large area dedicated to indie games!
pjmlp 3y ago
Most likely all compiled for Windows using DirectX, running via Proton.
- detuur 3y ago
  Yup, they're just using the decks as convenient exhibition devices (which they are!). I doubt many of them ever went into desktop mode.
  - Doxin 3y ago
    As a linux user: I don't mind this? Sure ideally games would be properly supporting linux, but as-is all this stuff means linux is even running most of these games at all. In an ideal dream world this keeps going until most of gaming is on linux, at which point supporting linux proper might get to be more attractive again.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      "OS/2, runs Windows better than Windows"
    - rkangel 3y ago
      I'm actually not sure this isn't better. Targetting Linux directly can have some challenges to work across the given distros. Instead we've adopted this standardised portability layer that just needs to be made to work once on each target. The popularity of Steam Decks means that more and more people will purposefully test against Proton and reduce the number of hacks and workarounds needed, and Linux gaming will be in a happy place. One recent positive development was Battlebit. The main limitation on Linux gaming is anti-cheat. Battlebit were going to bring in FACEIT anti-cheat, which in its current form prevents Linux (and on Windows requires you to disable VM processor extensions in the BIOS). They have announced that in fact they're implementing a different version of it that's Steam Deck friendly. Whether they changed their minds in response to pressure or it was always the plan and was poorly communicated isn't clear, but it's a nice development anyway.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
Loic 3y ago
Question about VR, has someone used a good VR headset to kind of cure/reduce mountain vertigo? I reduced my own with training but one of our son has it pretty hard and if VR sessions (or whatever the name is) could help reduce it, I would be ready to invest.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  Well it's extremely easy to recreate vertigo in VR (one of the Vive demos back in the day was walking on a plank hanging off a building that felt 99% real), so it should be very doable.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    Vertigo is not technically a fear of heights though?
    - moffkalast 3y ago
      Wait it's not? > It's the sensation that you, or the environment around you, is moving or spinning. Hmm I guess in that case then VR in general is the vertigo simulator regardless of what content is being played. Inner ear accelerometer disparity with the game world is guaranteed and something that makes some people hurl a lot.
    - Loic 3y ago
      This is the vertigo I want to "cure". But interestingly, you can trigger it with from a limited height, like just 5m. This limited height "trigger" is what I used to improve my own. I did a lot of indoor climbing and outdoor tree climbing "adventure" parks. But if a VR headset could accelerate these improvements by tricking my brain, I would be interested. I will ask friends having such headsets to test them. Thank you.
      - quickthrower2 3y ago
        I know someone with vertigo, it has nothing at all to do with height, as far as I am aware and also what I have seen online. If it does have to do with heights I suspect it is a change in air pressure aggravating it? But maybe there is more than one "vertigo". I might be wrong. Not a doctor!
skylabmelody 3y ago
Thank you for the Bitsummit coverage, glad to see that the spirit of Sanqua magazine still lives on.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  What a nice comment. Thanks for following us for such a long time :-)
TulliusCicero 3y ago
I think this article would've really been improved by a screenshot for each game mentioned, where available. But, the descriptions are quite nice already, so thanks for that. Edit: looks like there might already be said images, just not loading for me
- ekianjo 3y ago
  There are such pics just visit back later when its out of the front of HN :-)
taeric 3y ago
If you like gaming, this is a very well done article about a lot of indie games. The headline of the Decks being everywhere is a later section of the overall article, which is mostly about the games. Sounds like a very fun convention, and I'm definitely going to try and check out some of the games. Exciting time for small studio development. What I would love to see, is a very focused "how to make your own games on Steam Deck" book/video/whatever. I know my kids are interested in making some games, but have no idea where to start. Having a very basic primer to get it up on the Deck would be amazing.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > What I would love to see, is a very focused "how to make your own games on Steam Deck" book/video/whatever. I know my kids are interested in making some games, but have no idea where to start. Having a very basic primer to get it up on the Deck would be amazing. Short summary: The Deck is a Linux computer. Get SSH running on it, compile your game for Linux, copy over the files and run it. Out of the various console SDKs, Deck is probably the easiest for indies to get started on, as it's just another computer.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Right. I meant a specific very prescriptive guide for the kids.
    - doctorpangloss 3y ago
      Scratch is "games for kids." They are very prescriptive and have guides - you know, lesson plans - for everything they can teach. Either it supports Steam Deck or it doesn't. If they're 14+ Unity is realistic and is the same thing the pros use. I haven't tried Unreal Engine for Fortnite but if they play it, it is probably the best option. Minecraft, Bloons and Terraria modding is also pretty good. You can give them a GPT4 sub and it seems to do a good job answering basic computing questions if this is going to be their first time e.g. installing a professional tool.
Decabytes 3y ago
Beatsaber released into early access in 2018. Half Life Alyx released in 2020. What other good VR games have come out in the last few years?
- mellosouls 3y ago
  Thrill of the Fight Pistol Whip Audio Trip Les Mills Body Combat In Death Unchained Racket NX Ragnarok Walkabout Mini Golf : A few off the top of my head...
  - smellyshaft1 3y ago
    Racket NX is great. They definitely need a sequel.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  Probably a few more but nowhere near as high profile as those two.
- kipchak 3y ago
  I've heard good things about Vertigo 2 and VTOL VR. Gorilla Tag was popular for a bit also, and Contractors has some fun basically total conversion mods recently, like a TF2 and Battlefront 2 gamemode. Into the Radius is nearing it's end of development as well. A couple others I've had fun with are are Dragon Fist, Until you Fall, Ragnarock and the Pixel Ripped games.
- jabroni_salad 3y ago
  I really enjoyed "I expect you to die", a series of escape challenges themed after spy movie sequences. In terms of gameplay I don't think it's that much different than other tech demo-ey VR games, it's just that the theme and writing are extremely good.
  - SlackingOff123 3y ago
    I really enjoyed that game too. There's a sequel for it and it's just as good. I also liked A fisherman's tale a lot. It's a really well made vr game.
spiritplumber 3y ago
Beatsaber got me to exercise and that itself was worth the money spent.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  try pistol whip next! it got me covered in sweat before I even realized it
  - spiritplumber 3y ago
    thank you!
karim79 3y ago
I picked up a PSVR2 at launch. A couple of friends popped over to check it out with me. We decided to give Resident Evil Village a go. The graphics, comfort, ease-of-setup, all astounding. What really blew us away though, was the haptic feedback on the controllers. There's this one bit at the beginning where an on-screen indicators beckons you to grab and slide out a drawer. The feedback in the (move controllers?) I think they are called manage to simulate actual resistance/friction. Everyone took turns opening and closing the very same drawer, in awe. We then put it away and watched some YouTube. I might try openy closy again on the weekend.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  What did you think of the actual game?
  - karim79 3y ago
    Great - I keep meaning to come back to it. The shooting range and weapon mechanics, the crazy graphics. Completely worth the purchase. The game is extremely stressful and draining when the going gets tough, though in a good way. I just haven't managed to give it enough time yet. I've tried a few other titles, so far I think this is the most technically impressive one I've played thus far.
satokema 3y ago
VRChat is still the gold standard of VR experiences. VR is still a bit niche and only VRC actually offers an easy road to creating experiences - it's way easier to get novelty junkies on VRC to checkout a world than to try to sell or market a standalone experience. Probably easiest to just run a patreon at these levels than actually sell games, too.
- kilroy123 3y ago
  I tried it on the Oculus and found it to be a horrible experience with tons of young children. I guess the Oculus version is limited?
  - haburka 3y ago
    Yes it is - the majority of the content is not accessible with quest and also it only allows you in quest worlds, which are full of children. You need to plug in your quest to a computer in order to experience the decent part
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    It is somewhat of a common thing in VRC communities that simply blocking Quest users cuts out the vast majority of annoying kids running around.
- GuB-42 3y ago
  To be honest, I'd say Beat Saber is the gold standard. Not the immersive metaworld thing that is so popular in fiction, but a real fun game that is not just about being VR. VRChat has, I think, a more limited demographic than Beat Saber, and it is probably not where the future of VR is. I mean, it is cool, and I think it is here to stay (or if it doesn't, it will be replaced by something similar), but like Second Life today, I don't think it has much room for growth.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
    VRChat probably has similar problems to Chatroulette / Omegle have in terms of widespread adoption
slim 3y ago
VR is just too scary. It obliterates your vision and gives full control on your attention to the company owning it. It's literally total mind control
- accrual 3y ago
  It's not a bad thing if the service provided offers you something you want and otherwise wouldn't have. I hate Meta as much as the next person and wouldn't give them an ounce of my attention, but I spent hundreds of hours in VRChat and I wouldn't trade that for anything. I use an Index headset with Vive components, so no Meta or PII involved.

164 points by ekianjo 3y ago

staz 3y ago

Seems like site got /. copy at https://archive.is/IiBZo https://archive.is/IiBZo one of their linked youtube video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw

detuur 3y ago
That is missing virtually all of the pictures (which were all full-resolution jpegs, blowing the page size up). For me the site just went offline, it shows a 500. I'm betting it's hosted on a smal colo. They should consider cloudflare or another cdn/accelerator.
ekianjo 3y ago
For those who can't see the site right now, here are some videos from the article on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9W_cFUWYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9W_cFUWYw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnt37hu1bRw

wkat4242 3y ago

VR is absolutely amazing. I don't really understand why it's not taking off in the mainstream. Especially with the low prices of quest or pico headsets. Not that I really care, there's enough usecases where it adds value (eg simming) to support a cottage industry. And I'm not a trend follower anyway, I like to make my own choices. Most of the things I'm really into are very niche. But it would be nice to see a bit more content for it.

toyg 3y ago
When someone mentions VR I cannot help but think "...AND JEEEESUS WEPT!" Damn you, Dan Harmon, damn you.
- DANmode 3y ago
  Jim Rash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4FGzE4endQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4FGzE4endQ
astrange 3y ago
I haven't used recent technology, but I mostly associate VR games with motion sickness. This is actually a reason 2D games can exclude women; they get motion sick more easily and nobody tunes the games for them!
- 255 3y ago
  Is there evidence for this?
  - astrange 3y ago
    As I made an existence statement, you can look up any female streamer/vtuber and hear them say they can't play an FPS today because they ran out of dramamine. (I know like three.)
- VanTodi 3y ago
  Most Games have comfort settings Like Teleportation, Fading etc. My wife gets motion sick pretty fast with VR, but reading a book while driving is no issue. It's rather strange to me
- winternewt 3y ago
  I find it really confusing that people call games 2D just because they're displayed in monoscopic instead of stereoscopic 3D.
seanthemon 3y ago
Still quite niche, not a lot of good marketing around them other than you look goofy when you use them, they make you sici/nauseous, you need a lot of space, you need a powerful pc, relatively unknown which apps/games run in VR etc Every point shrinks the target market Now we have apple with their exclusive vr headset and this will alienate more people until the market stabilizes - maybe like what happened with touch screen phones in the 10s
haunter 3y ago
$$$ PCs are expensive. You spent ~$1500 on a good uptodate setup. Now a Valve Index will cost another $1000. Not worth it for the niche.
- ponyous 3y ago
  You can buy a quest and don't need a PC for $300.
  - croes 3y ago
    You only get mobile game graphics quality on a Quest headset
  - willis936 3y ago
    That's a poor substitute. And also comes with Meta baggage. I can't speak for anyone else, but I will never invite a meta product into my home.
    - mellosouls 3y ago
      So you don't know it's a poor substitute then?
      - willis936 3y ago
        What makes you say that? Whether or not I buy one has no bearing over how much computational power a device has: which is what makes it a poor substitute.
        mellosouls 3y ago
        It's not just about the computational power though, is it? It's a different type of platform and regardless, the second half of your comment ruled out the value of the first.
        3y ago
pmx 3y ago
I love my quest but I don't have the space in my house to safely play the more energetic games and it can't be used outside. I would love to see a headset that can cope with being used in the sun.
- elcritch 3y ago
  The lack of outside usage is annoying. Though I just picked up a Kat C2, a VR treadmill. It’s been fun!
- falcolas 3y ago
  > I would love to see a headset that can cope with being used in the sun. The biggest problem is the lenses work perfectly in reverse, transforming the parallel rays of light from the sun into a single spot on the LCD screen, literally burning it. Until we get a different display technology, outside usage is probably going to remain extremely limited.
VanTodi 3y ago
IMHO the entry to VR is for most people to cumbersome. - you should try it first to check how bad your motion sickness gets when playing. If you have it bad, all your bought VR equipment is unusable. - you need specific hardware for it which (mostly) only works for gaming (and maybe porn). Putting 400+ bucks into the hardware for that sole purpose is to much for most people. - you need a dedicated place for it. You can play it sitting down, but that's not even half the fun of VR. I have a VR headset myself and really like it, but even for me it's a hustle to free up the space and set everything up for a session. I rather pick up my steamdeck and play wherever I might be.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
I think it's all about convenience. I've only had a tiny exposure to VR and it was all very nice, but disorientating and I had to be stood up whilst playing. I guess the disorientation is something you get used to, but if I want to relax and play a game, I want to be sat down which would also help with not having the usual balance cues due to the headset blocking sight. Convenience is where the Steam Deck wins - the ability to hit the power button to put it to sleep almost instantly in the middle of a game and to then just pick it up later and carry on is really nice. I had stopped playing computer games as I found it difficult to allocate time to go and play on a PC, but am now getting back into playing games as I can just pick up the Deck, and be continuing a game within seconds. I guess it's a similar phenomenon as casual phone games, but applied to Steam games. For VR to truly take off, I reckon it'll need the headset to shrink to being like a pair of glasses and the immersion will likely suffer, but the convenience factor is what'll win. In some ways I see it as being akin to 3D films - people would rather just watch a 2D film without needing special glasses as it's more convenient, though to be fair, 3D adds very little to the film watching experience in my opinion (story and acting performances are what makes a great film, not 3D CGI effects).
- tormeh 3y ago
  I liked the Quest Pro idea of having a solid gap between the screen and your face that you can see through, so you get to have some connection to reality. I bet it helps with motion sickness and cooling, as well as making it less disorienting to put on. Generally I think HMDs are great, but VR is only going to work for very specific game genres.
- highspeedbus 3y ago
  It's kind of how playing guitar is nice and all, but majority of players get lazy to stand up and prefer to do it sitting in front of computer.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>I don't really understand why it's not taking off in the mainstream. Two things: Price, and VR in reality isn't as cool and sexy as portrayed in science fiction. Apple's at least trying to improve or at least shake up the latter, albeit at the cost of worsening the former.
bluescrn 3y ago
It's amazing for about 15 minutes, then you start to feel the motion sickness, or the sweat starts to build up around the warm headset. It's just not comfortable enough for prolonged use. As well as those issues, there's the discomfort of being so isolated from the world, especially if in a home/office with other people around. And other (more solveable) issues, such as text legibility.
- viraptor 3y ago
  The motion sickness really depends on the refresh rate (so currently on the price). Very much like with phones, the faster the display gets the fewer people will experience issues.
  - bullen 3y ago
    Not only, it's a tradeoff: visual fidelity vs. power. Not a single game is custom made for VR except HL:A... It's too expensive to develop for, if Roblox on Quest 2 sucks VR is over.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      I get where you're coming from but "not a single game" is far from true. There's lots of games made strictly for VR, including great hits like BeatSaber.
      - bullen 3y ago
        BeatSaber is Unity, Unity has GC (garbage collection = stutters) and even if they worked around it for such a simple game it doesn't matter. On the other hand if you want a action MMO (something we never succeeded in doing yet, Planetside 2 was a latency fest) you need to go vanilla C/C++. Engines make games economical (in zero interest rate times) but the value of the games is lower because nothing is invented, they are just copying the wheel. I never buy Unity/Unreal games or non-multiplayer games.
        3y ago
V1ndaar 3y ago
As someone who spends a good amount of time on iracing, what annoys me most about VR not taking off more is the lack of improvements in VR headsets. We just get more high-end stuff like the Varjo Aero, Bigscreen Beyond or Pimax Crystal, but since the release of the HP Reverb G2 there haven't been any sensibly priced options anymore. And things like the Quest or Pico are just pretty rubbish for PCVR (compression, dealing with flimsy USB C connectors, Oculus software etc.).
w4rh4wk5 3y ago
I have a Valve Index, a big enough room, and everything set up ready to go. Still, I hardly ever use it. My problem is simply that most VR games are too janky to control. Half Life: Alyx and Boneworks stood out as they were acceptable -- but beyond that, it's very hard for me to enjoy VR games.
- dspillett 3y ago
  > a big enough room This is the key problem for a lot of gamers. The cost issue puts more casual users off, but avid gamers are used to dropping $$$ for their hobby every upgrade cycle so as the hardware prices continue to slip downwards that is less and less their main concern. Having a private bit of space big enough and clear enough is not as those singing the virtues of VR seem to think. > most VR games are too janky Of course, the amount of good content that truly takes advantage of the kit is a concern when spending the $$$ even with the kit being much cheaper now than a few years ago. There might be other things that a given person can invest that resource on which will increase their enjoyment much more overall (better screens, a really comfy chair, actual games, …).
iopq 3y ago
I tried it once, it was some kind of skiing game. When I had a big jump I immediately felt nauseous because I expected to feel like my body is in free fall, but I didn't, so it felt weird
elcapitan 3y ago
> I don't really understand why it's not taking off in the mainstream. "Non-VR games, books, movies, music already get people deeply immersed without putting their head into a bucket" (Jonathan Blow in a recent stream). To me that pretty much sums it up. Your mileage may vary, but I don't think most people are actually waiting for that type of experience.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jimmySixDOF 3y ago
  This point of view kind of assumes that all immersion is the same and so why bother adding this bizarre contraption to your face. But then why bother buying a TV and build your living room seating around it if you could just sit and read a book ? As more 3D 6DOF experiences are made possible and built there will be more usefulness in the extra immersion levels you get from putting your head into that bucket. Besides it should be more important what is going on inside your head than what is on it.
  - kmos17 3y ago
    With a TV you can still grab the pop-corn bowl or talk to people around you. I think the immersion will make sense for people living on their own but even then it's too much immersion imo, so remains to be seen if Apple's version by allowing you to still interact with your environment will at least make the pop-corn bowl conundrum moot for these people. I can't see wearing this at all in a family/group environment (even the apple TV one).
seer 3y ago
VR games are immersive and exhausting, you kinda have to be “in the mood” for one, and it kinda works mostly if you’re living alone, as its just very socially awkward to do your vr thing while someone else is in the room. I think that’s mostly because you are doing something physical (interesting) but nobody else is allowed to participate. Which can feel kinda rude. Compare that to normal games which you can “relax to” at the end of your work day. I love playing beat saber myself, one of the more “casual” games, but its always been weird with people around. Its not a coincidence that the apple vision pitch was mostly “this is the best HD screen that you’ve seen you just put it on your head” with a lot less movement emphasis, and I think it has a bigger chance of “taking off” than the current gen of vr, hopefully.
- andybak 3y ago
  I generally don't play games with someone else in the room because it feels a bit rude. I don't tend to hang out with people that want to watch someone else play a game. Is that an age thing? I might use VR when someone else is in the house however. That's different.
  - yreg 3y ago
    Depends on why someone is in the room, right? Having friends over, ignoring them and playing a game sounds rude, unless they are into it. But even then, it would be more polite to let the guests play and the host watch. Sharing a flat with a roommate and playing a game while they do their own thing in the same room is certainly not rude.
- yreg 3y ago
  During parties at my place my guests used to often play BeatSaber on HTC Vive. The video is mirrored to a TV screen at the table, audio is on. Colored smart lights connected to the tv provide mood lighting and react to what's happening in the game. We talk, drink, etc. and watch the person play in the background. Of course players swap and compete against each other (there is an arcade mode for that).
- wkat4242 3y ago
  > I think that’s mostly because you are doing something physical (interesting) but nobody else is allowed to participate. Which can feel kinda rude. That's a good point but it's just a limitation with current-gen tech. There's already headsets that can 'see' other players and incorporate them into the experience. Like the HTC Vive Focus 3. This is why those are used a lot for interactive experiences at trade shows etc. They are much more suitable than an Oculus Quest. Sharing on an external screen (on a quest you can easily stream the output to any chromecast) is something I also do when I'm giving demonstrations.
winternewt 3y ago
It's just too messy with the cable twisting around, all the room space you need etc. I have a 1st generation Vive where one of the cables keeps falling out of its socket. It's all just such a bother and I keep getting motion sick. Not getting another headset until it's cable free, and I don't want an Oculus b/c of FB affiliation.
tsimionescu 3y ago
I had a rented Oculus Quest 2 headset, and it completely put me off ever buying one. It was actually quite fun for a party where everyone was trying out, but: - it got very uncomfortable very fast - everyone who tried it was drenched in face sweat after ~10 minutes, not a pleasant sensation - the games are very un-interactive compared to traditional games. Even moving about is usually very limited, it felt like playing Myst or Zork again - when a game did offer smooth movement, the movement without moving was extremely disorienting, and would have easily caused motion sickness if I hadn't stopped immediately Overall, the fun of looking around a VR space is completely overshadowed by the extreme limitations in control and motion and comfort. I'm much more immersed playing a PC RPG than than a VR game, and I see nothing about any upcoming headset (including Apple's) that seems to have a change to fix this. I'm not even sure it is in principle fixable, given the optical (need something to block out light to show true blacks) and geometric (need room to actually move) limitations. Probably only some kid of direct brain-computer interface could bridge these gaps.
dgellow 3y ago
Current devices look too inconvenient to use IMHO. I expect to be sweating due to the headset, and to be exhausted after use. I just checked, the pico 4 seems to be around 450€ in Germany. For something that doesn’t seem to be convenient or comfortable, that’s way to much. I already have a nice setup to play games or consume content I enjoy, and don’t really see how a VR would fit into this. I expect to use it a few times and have some fun, then forget about it.
entropi 3y ago
Personally, I just don't see the appeal. A good game is quite immersive without needing any cumbersome goggles. I can't imagine a bad one being immersive with any sort of goggles. To be fair, I think the same thing about fancy graphics as well; but people seem to love fancy graphics with 4k resolution and ray tracing or whatever the newest gimmick is. In my opinion, the only significant effect of any graphics fancier than ps3 era is just increased costs, less finished/polished games, and the necessity to appeal to a wider audience. I think about the same thing about the whole VR thing. If it becomes mainstream, I think there would be hardly any games that take advantage of it; and most of the games would just focus on the spectacle, which gets old extremely quickly.
dncornholio 3y ago
VR is very popular in sim-racing and other cockpit games but outside of that it's just a gimmick IMO. Games like Beatsaber is where it shines but it's a lot of money for such casual games.
dathinab 3y ago
In no specific order: - Motion sickness, or the fear of it. Not from looking around but from "walking" around. And the number of games which are "mainstream appalling", benefit a lot from VR and don't contain walking around are limited. Just to put it into context people getting motion sickness when stopping "walking on a treadmill while watching TV" is non negligible while at the same time people which don't have that issue often never even heard of it/considered it a thing. (Simply because in our mostly non VR world it's a non-topic.) Through at the same time it's not uncommon for people which do have motion sickness while gaming issues to still be able to use VR. - Too little occasions to properly relaxed, and longer term (more then just 5min) try it out for yourself without buying it. For many people it looks like VR is very little value added for them (because many people don't do supper immersive gaming, but instead just want to relax a bit after work or similar) - (potentially wrong) believe that "cheaper" VR headsets are crap - space, it's easy to underestimate how many people live in small apartments where getting a big enough free space to not hit anything isn't easy, or if it's often in a shared space where people might find it's usage for VR annoying - price 1, e.g. the pico 4 still cost 400€ where i live for many people this is not an amount of many they would spend just to try something out (and for many it's also not much at all) - price 2, 400€ for something people often see as an additional investment just/exclusive for gaming, while e.g. a laptop/tablet is also seen as usable for office, and while traveling and for watching movies (with others) etc. And while some of this are misconceptions, they still are there. And if you buy something "just for gaming" and can decide between a pico 4 and a switch or playstation bundle with a grate game in it it's clear what many people will choose - no killer use case, like VR exclusive games everyone wants to play or similar. It's a bit of an hen/egg problem. Without wide usage there is too much commercial risk for creating such a thing but without it it's harder to get wide usage. There are some thing which get close to such a thing tho, like beat saber . - glasses/bad eyes, some people simply can't wear contact lenses and while they did add some features to some headsets to "compensate bad eyes" they have sever limitations (bad eyesight isn't as simple as you focus point being a bit off, you also can e.g. have rotations, twists or folds, and getting that just slightly wrong can be a very exhausting or even headache inducing experience for the users) Anyway I think the main problem is "perception" in many different ways as well as eco system wrt. non game use cases. Which is also why I think Apple did what it did, at some point you need to start if you want to succeed in a emergend field even if you loose money. The problem is you don't know when the VR field will explode and entering it too early can be too costly. My guess is for VR to take off we need an reasonable priced headset+equipment set which you practically can use by itself as a laptop replacement for non gaming tasks and "simple/short" games. Means: - portable/compact enough - usable in public (but doesn't need as fancy features as what apple did) - ~4+h battery live for office tasks, 8h would be better - comfortable usable when having a power supply (like similar to one from a laptop) connected - with not too long brakes usable for 8-10h - usable by most people, at least for office task and some simple games - full laptop functionality, e.g. browsing or playing non VR games like idk. minesweeper - reasonable affordable base models (as full laptop replacement that would be ~800€) and nice still reasonable priced "good" (not highest end) models (~<1500€) - support for external displays to make it usable for presentations - fast text input, somehow without hurting portability Most of this is sound like something which could be archived in coming years depending on technical advancement. Some main issues which aren't can't be solved by innovations in other sectors (e.g better batteries): - as it's not conveniently flat and square like a laptop convenient daily travel portability is harder to archive, including the fast text input without carrying a nearly laptop sized keyboard with you - hair + headset, people care about their hair not getting messed up - usability for everyone, even if your head is large or small or you have some neck issues, or eye issues, or motion sickness etc. personalized devices help, but drive the price up and prevent sharing
fassssst 3y ago
I liked my Quest 2 a lot for about two weeks until the novelty totally wore off. I just don’t want immersive gaming experiences. My Switch satisfies my occasional gaming itch, and is easy to just pick up and play for 15 minutes without taking myself out of the world.
jrm4 3y ago
Purely in theory. Seriously. I have a Quest 2, sidequest and all, and the selection of actually good stuff is incredibly minimal. I have a big picture theory about all of this; the experience of "computer entertainment" is FAR MORE STRONGLY rooted in "other humans" than many geeks would believe, and VR (oddly) hasn't really done much significant at all in that space. For me and the family and people I know, first the Wii, and later the Steam Deck (esp with Jackbox games, that brings MY parents into the fold, and I'm in my 40s) has been SIGNIFICANTLY more impactful than an individual putting on a headset.
- ianbutler 3y ago
  I like VR a lot, but pretty much all my gaming time these days is to connect with friends. Most don't have VR and of the few who do we've tried to game together and the networking was so clunky that it was more frustrating than fun. The solo experiences can be really neat but I already live alone so if my choices are the more isolating activity or the activity I'll do with friends, I'm choosing the second every time. In practice this means good old PC fps games.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Oh yeah good point, I exclusively play single player games because I don't like multiplayer at all. I used to do some call of duty but the screaming kids annoyed me too much.
- ixaxaar 3y ago
  The "no thanks, I have friends" argument?
  - jrm4 3y ago
    Literally, yes? Or I like to go online and make them?
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Oh yeah I do have a PC so my catalogue is a lot larger. I do play a lot of sims also (I used to pilot real planes also). But the solitude of the current generation is just because most headsets can only support one player in the experience. Vive Focus 3 can do this pretty well already, I've done interactive experiences with many other people in the same space.
stuckinhell 3y ago
It causes nausea for a lot of people. Plus alot of people don't want to move around after work. I think a vr headset that puts people in the world but still lets them play with controller like settings would increase adoption a bit, however the nausea part is a big deal.
Loughla 3y ago
So I'm trying to get into VR, but I'm not even sure where to start. Any forum posts regarding what direction to go for headsets and what-not always boil down to fanboy posts shilling for their favorite thing. So I'll try here - I have an extremely high end gaming PC and am looking for VR options to tag along with it. What suggestions for systems/games do you have?
- asynchronous 3y ago
  What is your budget and desired ecosystem? The Valve Index is (imo) the highest quality VR headset right now in terms of fidelity and comfort and tracking, but is also one of the most expensive and hardest to set up. The Quest 2 on the other hand is exceedingly affordable, is portable, and can be run standalone, all of which are very very cool. But then you take the Meta plunge.
  - Loughla 3y ago
    Budget is anywhere from $0-$700 (or so), and I would like to avoid anything with facebook.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      These two requirements are basically incompatible. Buy a used vive on ebay and start there maybe.
      - asynchronous 3y ago
        Yeah that’s a really weird price range. I’d say go up and buy an Index if possible, or go down and buy a Quest with a fake facebook account. The pimax is an option but it’s above that range.
      - Loughla 3y ago
        I picked an arbitrary number. Let's say up to $1500. How about that?
spywaregorilla 3y ago
A screen strapped to your face in a clumsy world is less immersive than even a third person television game with tight controls. Consider RED STEEL 2 for the Wii. Motion control gun and sword play. FPS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO91n5phQQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO91n5phQQY To me this looks way more immersive than any VR shooter game. You can really move around and do things that you can't do irl. Even if your controls allow that in VR, it's going to feel wrong. It's going to make you think about the screen on your face. Yeah yeah you have the cool VR moments where you duck in and out of cover. Those are cool and immersive because you genuinely don't need to do anything you can't do irl. But they get boring eventually.
- two_handfuls 3y ago
  My experience is the complete opposite. Flight simulators outside of VR feel like just a pale echo of what a VR flight sim can do.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    Sure. Chair simulators. They're genuinely good. They're not what people really want out of VR though.
royaltheartist 3y ago
I've personally been hesitant about VR for a few reasons. As someone with glasses, I'm not comfortable with purchasing something that won't easily accommodate without requiring that I continue to pay a premium for prescription insets. It's a deal breaker, honestly. But then there's the price to value ratio. There doesn't seem to be anything that is a must-play killer app, and while the catalog seems to have some gems it still leaves me with the impression I might drop a few hundred dollars for a couple hours of entertainment. VR seems like a radical change in design philosophy from the last 30-40 years of game development, and devs are still working out the specific language and techniques that are pertinent to it as a medium While the Quest 2 is the cheapest on on the market, I'll be damned if I'm giving money to Meta and from there headsets start to ramp up drastically in price, and still have inconveniences like needing to be tethered to a PC Really it isn't any one thing that's an issue so much as a bunch of smaller issues that make it seem like it's just not worth at the moment unless you got to drop on an item that's still at the niche phase. This will all probably improve over time though, and more people might start adopting
- two_handfuls 3y ago
  As someone with glasses: I have tried both insets and larger headsets that can fit glasses. The insets are absolutely the way to go. Just think of them as part of the headset's price. You're right that VR is currently relatively expensive in terms of "entertainment per dollar" compared to other activities. If you still find enjoyment in non-VR video games for example, there's nothing wrong with continuing to doing what you like.
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
I want to be invested in a game, not immersed. Gloom Spawn are terrifying enough without feeling like I'm actually being hunted. And I don't think I would virtually shit bricks if I did, so I'd have to take off a headset to attend to that fun little mess.

olvy0 3y ago

Hijacking this, kind of off-topic: I might have a chance to visit the Tokyo Game Show in September, and I'm wondering if it's worth my time, or will it just be a purely commercial venue with no hands-on experience. If it's even remotely like the Bitsummit described in the OP then that would be awesome. Some background: I'm not a gamer, I simply don't have the time to be one, but I'm very interested in gaming news, game engines, and well, games. I also don't know Japanese, unfortunately, I'm just visiting Tokyo for a short time. Anyone been to a previous Game Show (or a similar big event) and can say if it's worth it?

ekianjo 3y ago
Been then many times. Depends a lot of you go on business days or public days. Public days will mean long queues and not much time on anything during the day. Business days you can do a lot more and there is a large indie section where you can meet with indies just like at the Bitsummit.
- olvy0 3y ago
  Thanks! since I'll be going on a public day, I'll think if it's worth my time. Maybe I'll go anyway just for the general vibe.
dgellow 3y ago
Reading your comment makes me want to visit a “game engine show” :) Not sure what that would look like, but that sounds fun and way more interesting than a gaming show!
- pphysch 3y ago
  GDC is basically a "game engine show"
sp3n 3y ago
i will be exhibiting my indie game at the Tokyo Game Show in September, even though there will be huge elaborate booths for the massive/AAA studios, i can confirm that there will be a large area dedicated to indie games!

pjmlp 3y ago

Most likely all compiled for Windows using DirectX, running via Proton.

detuur 3y ago
Yup, they're just using the decks as convenient exhibition devices (which they are!). I doubt many of them ever went into desktop mode.
- Doxin 3y ago
  As a linux user: I don't mind this? Sure ideally games would be properly supporting linux, but as-is all this stuff means linux is even running most of these games at all. In an ideal dream world this keeps going until most of gaming is on linux, at which point supporting linux proper might get to be more attractive again.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    "OS/2, runs Windows better than Windows"
  - rkangel 3y ago
    I'm actually not sure this isn't better. Targetting Linux directly can have some challenges to work across the given distros. Instead we've adopted this standardised portability layer that just needs to be made to work once on each target. The popularity of Steam Decks means that more and more people will purposefully test against Proton and reduce the number of hacks and workarounds needed, and Linux gaming will be in a happy place. One recent positive development was Battlebit. The main limitation on Linux gaming is anti-cheat. Battlebit were going to bring in FACEIT anti-cheat, which in its current form prevents Linux (and on Windows requires you to disable VM processor extensions in the BIOS). They have announced that in fact they're implementing a different version of it that's Steam Deck friendly. Whether they changed their minds in response to pressure or it was always the plan and was poorly communicated isn't clear, but it's a nice development anyway.
- ekianjo 3y ago

Loic 3y ago

Question about VR, has someone used a good VR headset to kind of cure/reduce mountain vertigo? I reduced my own with training but one of our son has it pretty hard and if VR sessions (or whatever the name is) could help reduce it, I would be ready to invest.

moffkalast 3y ago
Well it's extremely easy to recreate vertigo in VR (one of the Vive demos back in the day was walking on a plank hanging off a building that felt 99% real), so it should be very doable.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Vertigo is not technically a fear of heights though?
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Wait it's not? > It's the sensation that you, or the environment around you, is moving or spinning. Hmm I guess in that case then VR in general is the vertigo simulator regardless of what content is being played. Inner ear accelerometer disparity with the game world is guaranteed and something that makes some people hurl a lot.
  - Loic 3y ago
    This is the vertigo I want to "cure". But interestingly, you can trigger it with from a limited height, like just 5m. This limited height "trigger" is what I used to improve my own. I did a lot of indoor climbing and outdoor tree climbing "adventure" parks. But if a VR headset could accelerate these improvements by tricking my brain, I would be interested. I will ask friends having such headsets to test them. Thank you.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      I know someone with vertigo, it has nothing at all to do with height, as far as I am aware and also what I have seen online. If it does have to do with heights I suspect it is a change in air pressure aggravating it? But maybe there is more than one "vertigo". I might be wrong. Not a doctor!

skylabmelody 3y ago

Thank you for the Bitsummit coverage, glad to see that the spirit of Sanqua magazine still lives on.

ekianjo 3y ago
What a nice comment. Thanks for following us for such a long time :-)

TulliusCicero 3y ago

I think this article would've really been improved by a screenshot for each game mentioned, where available. But, the descriptions are quite nice already, so thanks for that. Edit: looks like there might already be said images, just not loading for me

ekianjo 3y ago
There are such pics just visit back later when its out of the front of HN :-)

taeric 3y ago

If you like gaming, this is a very well done article about a lot of indie games. The headline of the Decks being everywhere is a later section of the overall article, which is mostly about the games. Sounds like a very fun convention, and I'm definitely going to try and check out some of the games. Exciting time for small studio development. What I would love to see, is a very focused "how to make your own games on Steam Deck" book/video/whatever. I know my kids are interested in making some games, but have no idea where to start. Having a very basic primer to get it up on the Deck would be amazing.

capableweb 3y ago
> What I would love to see, is a very focused "how to make your own games on Steam Deck" book/video/whatever. I know my kids are interested in making some games, but have no idea where to start. Having a very basic primer to get it up on the Deck would be amazing. Short summary: The Deck is a Linux computer. Get SSH running on it, compile your game for Linux, copy over the files and run it. Out of the various console SDKs, Deck is probably the easiest for indies to get started on, as it's just another computer.
- taeric 3y ago
  Right. I meant a specific very prescriptive guide for the kids.
  - doctorpangloss 3y ago
    Scratch is "games for kids." They are very prescriptive and have guides - you know, lesson plans - for everything they can teach. Either it supports Steam Deck or it doesn't. If they're 14+ Unity is realistic and is the same thing the pros use. I haven't tried Unreal Engine for Fortnite but if they play it, it is probably the best option. Minecraft, Bloons and Terraria modding is also pretty good. You can give them a GPT4 sub and it seems to do a good job answering basic computing questions if this is going to be their first time e.g. installing a professional tool.

Decabytes 3y ago

Beatsaber released into early access in 2018. Half Life Alyx released in 2020. What other good VR games have come out in the last few years?

mellosouls 3y ago
Thrill of the Fight Pistol Whip Audio Trip Les Mills Body Combat In Death Unchained Racket NX Ragnarok Walkabout Mini Golf : A few off the top of my head...
- smellyshaft1 3y ago
  Racket NX is great. They definitely need a sequel.
ekianjo 3y ago
Probably a few more but nowhere near as high profile as those two.
kipchak 3y ago
I've heard good things about Vertigo 2 and VTOL VR. Gorilla Tag was popular for a bit also, and Contractors has some fun basically total conversion mods recently, like a TF2 and Battlefront 2 gamemode. Into the Radius is nearing it's end of development as well. A couple others I've had fun with are are Dragon Fist, Until you Fall, Ragnarock and the Pixel Ripped games.
jabroni_salad 3y ago
I really enjoyed "I expect you to die", a series of escape challenges themed after spy movie sequences. In terms of gameplay I don't think it's that much different than other tech demo-ey VR games, it's just that the theme and writing are extremely good.
- SlackingOff123 3y ago
  I really enjoyed that game too. There's a sequel for it and it's just as good. I also liked A fisherman's tale a lot. It's a really well made vr game.

spiritplumber 3y ago

Beatsaber got me to exercise and that itself was worth the money spent.

cultofmetatron 3y ago
try pistol whip next! it got me covered in sweat before I even realized it
- spiritplumber 3y ago
  thank you!

karim79 3y ago

I picked up a PSVR2 at launch. A couple of friends popped over to check it out with me. We decided to give Resident Evil Village a go. The graphics, comfort, ease-of-setup, all astounding. What really blew us away though, was the haptic feedback on the controllers. There's this one bit at the beginning where an on-screen indicators beckons you to grab and slide out a drawer. The feedback in the (move controllers?) I think they are called manage to simulate actual resistance/friction. Everyone took turns opening and closing the very same drawer, in awe. We then put it away and watched some YouTube. I might try openy closy again on the weekend.

spywaregorilla 3y ago
What did you think of the actual game?
- karim79 3y ago
  Great - I keep meaning to come back to it. The shooting range and weapon mechanics, the crazy graphics. Completely worth the purchase. The game is extremely stressful and draining when the going gets tough, though in a good way. I just haven't managed to give it enough time yet. I've tried a few other titles, so far I think this is the most technically impressive one I've played thus far.

satokema 3y ago

VRChat is still the gold standard of VR experiences. VR is still a bit niche and only VRC actually offers an easy road to creating experiences - it's way easier to get novelty junkies on VRC to checkout a world than to try to sell or market a standalone experience. Probably easiest to just run a patreon at these levels than actually sell games, too.

kilroy123 3y ago
I tried it on the Oculus and found it to be a horrible experience with tons of young children. I guess the Oculus version is limited?
- haburka 3y ago
  Yes it is - the majority of the content is not accessible with quest and also it only allows you in quest worlds, which are full of children. You need to plug in your quest to a computer in order to experience the decent part
- dotnet00 3y ago
  It is somewhat of a common thing in VRC communities that simply blocking Quest users cuts out the vast majority of annoying kids running around.
GuB-42 3y ago
To be honest, I'd say Beat Saber is the gold standard. Not the immersive metaworld thing that is so popular in fiction, but a real fun game that is not just about being VR. VRChat has, I think, a more limited demographic than Beat Saber, and it is probably not where the future of VR is. I mean, it is cool, and I think it is here to stay (or if it doesn't, it will be replaced by something similar), but like Second Life today, I don't think it has much room for growth.
- HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
  VRChat probably has similar problems to Chatroulette / Omegle have in terms of widespread adoption

slim 3y ago

VR is just too scary. It obliterates your vision and gives full control on your attention to the company owning it. It's literally total mind control

accrual 3y ago
It's not a bad thing if the service provided offers you something you want and otherwise wouldn't have. I hate Meta as much as the next person and wouldn't give them an ounce of my attention, but I spent hundreds of hours in VRChat and I wouldn't trade that for anything. I use an Index headset with Vive components, so no Meta or PII involved.