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I can't help but feel astonished how salient the classic Carl Sagan quote is here: "I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time

I can't help but feel astonished how salient the classic Carl Sagan quote is here: "I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness... The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"

Daishiman 3y ago
It's as fun as always to subscribe to these narratives but I don't buy it. In the span of time that astrology has taken hold we have seen a dramatic loss in adepts to Christianity as well as its irrational beliefs like creationism. It's clear that a portion of society has a need for this type of beliefs, and they have merely supplanted Christianity with astrology and woo.
- pierat 3y ago
  Christians believe in cannibalizing a human/god chimera, for the sole fact of trying to get rid of sin that you got when you were born.... And astrologers are weird? The basis of astrology is the teachings of Hermes Trismegistus, and "as above, so below". And the teaching was that everything is connected, even if appearing distant or not connected. Earlier astrology was more concerned with timings and when the esoteric energies were either maximized or minimized. Which is saner than "imma go eat a god-wafer to try to get rid of sin that I somehow got cause 2 people fucked"...
  - westmeal 3y ago
    No idea why people are downvoting you but the God wafers are not actually anywhere in the bible. Catholics just made it up like most things in doctrine. Not even a christian but just wanted to point out Christianity is a huge tree of branching religions and cults.
TSiege 3y ago
I deeply dislike the argument that logic and reason should be the only part of how a person relates to the world. That we should all be logical and be free of spiritual beliefs. I don't think being an astrologist and an astronomer are antithetical. I don't know many people who are into astrology as means of predicting the future, but rather as a means of describing types of people and how they might interact and their place in the world. It gives them a shared vocabulary of ideas and concepts that help them make sense of our human world. Astrology is asking very different questions than an equation about astral bodies could answer. Science and reason is indisputably important for understanding the natural world and making decisions from them, but it won't tell my friends why their relationship may be not working I don't believe in astrology, and I'm not much of an astrologist. But just let people have their beliefs and do what they enjoy without implying they're irrational reactionaries who can't see the "truth." If anything it's narratives that hold people back, not facts
- heisenzombie 3y ago
  I agree. As a physicist, I am very comfortable with the idea that all models of reality are wrong^1, but some models are useful for some things. For example: If you want to get a rocket into space, Newton’s laws are useful (despite being “wrong” in a very real way). But Newton’s laws are not useful if you’re designing GPS (you need relativity for that) and likewise they’re not useful if you are deciding whether to ask Susie on a date. My observation is that many traditional belief systems do encode useful beliefs and behaviours. Practicing yoga is healthful, despite Qi being “wrong”. I do hope your surgeon isn’t using the Qi model to do open heart surgery of course — though many of the surgeon’s beliefs about the human body are “wrong”, he’ll get better outcomes with them than with Qi. I therefore, like you, see no contradiction between learning astrology and using it to bond and communicate with friends about social situations, and going off to work in the morning as a particle physicist or something. As far as I’m concerned, the /real/ problem is this creeping “scientism” which asserts that the only acceptable knowledge is that which comes dressed in the robes and language of Science. Scientism is corrosive to the pursuit of actual science, and to society’s relationship with science. I am therefore much more concerned with someone saying “Scienty science words and therefore politics” or even ”scienty science words and therefore Everything You Know About Relationships Is Wrong“ — than I am about people practicing traditional astrology. ^1 “Wrong” being a loosely defined word for a slippery concept here. Perhaps replace with “not big-T True”
RichardCA 3y ago
Carl Sagan had quite a bit to say about Astrology. A lot of it was about Kepler, how he was strongly influenced by Astrology and how his mind was like a bridge between the two realities. It's still worth watching: https://vimeo.com/287179518 https://vimeo.com/287179518

Daishiman 3y ago

It's as fun as always to subscribe to these narratives but I don't buy it. In the span of time that astrology has taken hold we have seen a dramatic loss in adepts to Christianity as well as its irrational beliefs like creationism. It's clear that a portion of society has a need for this type of beliefs, and they have merely supplanted Christianity with astrology and woo.

pierat 3y ago
Christians believe in cannibalizing a human/god chimera, for the sole fact of trying to get rid of sin that you got when you were born.... And astrologers are weird? The basis of astrology is the teachings of Hermes Trismegistus, and "as above, so below". And the teaching was that everything is connected, even if appearing distant or not connected. Earlier astrology was more concerned with timings and when the esoteric energies were either maximized or minimized. Which is saner than "imma go eat a god-wafer to try to get rid of sin that I somehow got cause 2 people fucked"...
- westmeal 3y ago
  No idea why people are downvoting you but the God wafers are not actually anywhere in the bible. Catholics just made it up like most things in doctrine. Not even a christian but just wanted to point out Christianity is a huge tree of branching religions and cults.

TSiege 3y ago

I deeply dislike the argument that logic and reason should be the only part of how a person relates to the world. That we should all be logical and be free of spiritual beliefs. I don't think being an astrologist and an astronomer are antithetical. I don't know many people who are into astrology as means of predicting the future, but rather as a means of describing types of people and how they might interact and their place in the world. It gives them a shared vocabulary of ideas and concepts that help them make sense of our human world. Astrology is asking very different questions than an equation about astral bodies could answer. Science and reason is indisputably important for understanding the natural world and making decisions from them, but it won't tell my friends why their relationship may be not working I don't believe in astrology, and I'm not much of an astrologist. But just let people have their beliefs and do what they enjoy without implying they're irrational reactionaries who can't see the "truth." If anything it's narratives that hold people back, not facts

heisenzombie 3y ago
I agree. As a physicist, I am very comfortable with the idea that all models of reality are wrong^1, but some models are useful for some things. For example: If you want to get a rocket into space, Newton’s laws are useful (despite being “wrong” in a very real way). But Newton’s laws are not useful if you’re designing GPS (you need relativity for that) and likewise they’re not useful if you are deciding whether to ask Susie on a date. My observation is that many traditional belief systems do encode useful beliefs and behaviours. Practicing yoga is healthful, despite Qi being “wrong”. I do hope your surgeon isn’t using the Qi model to do open heart surgery of course — though many of the surgeon’s beliefs about the human body are “wrong”, he’ll get better outcomes with them than with Qi. I therefore, like you, see no contradiction between learning astrology and using it to bond and communicate with friends about social situations, and going off to work in the morning as a particle physicist or something. As far as I’m concerned, the /real/ problem is this creeping “scientism” which asserts that the only acceptable knowledge is that which comes dressed in the robes and language of Science. Scientism is corrosive to the pursuit of actual science, and to society’s relationship with science. I am therefore much more concerned with someone saying “Scienty science words and therefore politics” or even ”scienty science words and therefore Everything You Know About Relationships Is Wrong“ — than I am about people practicing traditional astrology. ^1 “Wrong” being a loosely defined word for a slippery concept here. Perhaps replace with “not big-T True”

RichardCA 3y ago

Carl Sagan had quite a bit to say about Astrology. A lot of it was about Kepler, how he was strongly influenced by Astrology and how his mind was like a bridge between the two realities. It's still worth watching: https://vimeo.com/287179518 https://vimeo.com/287179518