5 ms·

Israeli here so this is my interpretation which is radically different to whatever you will read anywhere else. Bear with me. Israel occupied territories as pa

Israeli here so this is my interpretation which is radically different to whatever you will read anywhere else. Bear with me. Israel occupied territories as part of a war in 67 from Jordan. It wanted parts of that land which made sense as it was a very thin border so the liberal party started settling there. However, Israel never annexed those areas and kept them occupied. Why? Because then the millions of Palestinians living there would get Israeli citizenship and voting rights. This is good and bad. It's good because "supposedly" Israel will give them independence one day. It's bad because it's really a dirty trick. Israel used Jewish settlements where the settlers did have citizenship to slowly grab lands while keeping the Palestinians under marshal law. Yes, there are nuances but that's the gist, 3 million people under marshal law yet Israel still calls itself a democracy. How come? The supreme court which is supposedly independent and a very strong human rights law. But both were used as a mask to whitewash the fact that it's been decades with no progress... The right wing wants to annex these areas. This would be legal. But it doesn't want to give the Palestinians Israeli citizenship, that would be VERY illegal and is considered insane. Even the problematic supreme court that we have wouldn't let that happen. That's why they need to destroy it. In the meantime, our prime minister (AKA crime minister) is pretty corrupt. Not an unusual sight around here. He's on trial but refuses to abdicate, his solution is to burn the courts to the ground so he doesn't go to jail. They are doing this one piece at a time so people don't see what they're doing, but effectively they're removing the power of the courts and they plan to install their own judges. Effectively eliminating any oversight since we have only one house of parliament.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
But what dynamics/motivations make many Israelis support Netanyahu and this judicial overhaul? With Trump, I noticed the perspective of international observers was very different than mine on the ground in Florida/Texas. The legitimate grievances that blossomed into the craziness, and decades of partisan priming, weren't really acknowledged. Now I feel like I'm on the other end. This judicial thing seems like a crazy change for Israelis to support, but maybe it makes some sense from the inside.
- invalidname 3y ago
  A rallying cry for them is: I vote right and keep getting left wing. They feel the claims against Netanyahu are all made up (similar to the Trump camp claims). There's also a dislike of liberal values and a lot of religion involved... The right has been in power almost continuously since 1977 (with a few short terms in between). Yet policies are far from what they promise. The right blames the liberals similarly to the "deep state" claims you see in the states. The judiciary is a major part of that. Ironically the judiciary today is very right wing and protects them from external criticisms.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    I thought a multiparty system would resist this kind of polarization... But the distrust I can understand. In the U.S. some legitimate systemic problems (especially in rural areas) and surpressed issues/controversies built up institutional skepticism among conservatives. Bad actors (on the extreme left and right) amplified it and turned it to obsession. The pressure was always there, ready to explode for years, but Trump just tapped it particularly well.
    - invalidname 3y ago
      It's supposed to but blocks form naturally. Also Netanyahu is a VERY divisive figure that spews poison. He essentially poisoned the well of discourse and made it an "us vs. them" situation. He isn't 100% wrong. As a person who lives in Tel Aviv I'm a liberal and an atheist. I have almost nothing in common with a settler in the west bank. But there was a status quo and he smashed it with a jackhammer.
  - fortzi 3y ago
    It's worth noting that many of what Likud voters today deem as "left wing" was actually done by the Likud in the past (like the human rights base law [1]). Essentially, when you actually gain power and have to take responsible action, you see that the right wing biblical fantasies can't end well for the county in reality. The problem today is that many of those right wingers who are also religious fundamentalists are now in power, and they care not about this world but about the next [2], so they're willing to make the sacrifice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_L... [2] https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%96%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%92%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%94 https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%96%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%9... (It's only in Hebrew, but Google Translate is your friend)
yehosef 3y ago
>The supreme court which is supposedly independent and a very strong human rights law This is the problem - the supreme court is very leftist and has the "authoritarian power" to reject any bill they deem "unreasonable". This is what they are fighting about. Ultimately the fight is about what happens to the state when the majority is religious, which is a demographic inevitability given current trends.
- invalidname 3y ago
  The supreme court "pretends" to be leftist. That's all part of the trick. Remember that the Human rights law was passed by a Licud government. They approved laws prohibiting Jews from working on the sabath, destroying houses of terrorist families (collective punishment isn't legal in a democracy) etc. But they're perceived as Liberal by the right since they need to blame someone for the pragmatism of their own MPs. > Ultimately the fight is about what happens to the state when the majority is religious, which is a demographic inevitability given current trends. Yes. Although they don't need a majority. All they need is enough non-religious useful idiots who think this is about right vs. left...
poisonarena 3y ago
> Israeli here "Left wing" israeli here..
- invalidname 3y ago
  Sure. Assumed it was clear from the context.
- orwin 3y ago
  He seems to be truly left-wing and not a neolib parading as 'center-left' that's oddly close to neocon on all subject but feminism and lgbtq rights, so I don't understand the quotes here.
raincom 3y ago
For someone who doesn't follow the Israeli politics, your reply lays out a broader picture of what's happening.

brucethemoose2 3y ago

But what dynamics/motivations make many Israelis support Netanyahu and this judicial overhaul? With Trump, I noticed the perspective of international observers was very different than mine on the ground in Florida/Texas. The legitimate grievances that blossomed into the craziness, and decades of partisan priming, weren't really acknowledged. Now I feel like I'm on the other end. This judicial thing seems like a crazy change for Israelis to support, but maybe it makes some sense from the inside.

invalidname 3y ago
A rallying cry for them is: I vote right and keep getting left wing. They feel the claims against Netanyahu are all made up (similar to the Trump camp claims). There's also a dislike of liberal values and a lot of religion involved... The right has been in power almost continuously since 1977 (with a few short terms in between). Yet policies are far from what they promise. The right blames the liberals similarly to the "deep state" claims you see in the states. The judiciary is a major part of that. Ironically the judiciary today is very right wing and protects them from external criticisms.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  I thought a multiparty system would resist this kind of polarization... But the distrust I can understand. In the U.S. some legitimate systemic problems (especially in rural areas) and surpressed issues/controversies built up institutional skepticism among conservatives. Bad actors (on the extreme left and right) amplified it and turned it to obsession. The pressure was always there, ready to explode for years, but Trump just tapped it particularly well.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    It's supposed to but blocks form naturally. Also Netanyahu is a VERY divisive figure that spews poison. He essentially poisoned the well of discourse and made it an "us vs. them" situation. He isn't 100% wrong. As a person who lives in Tel Aviv I'm a liberal and an atheist. I have almost nothing in common with a settler in the west bank. But there was a status quo and he smashed it with a jackhammer.
- fortzi 3y ago
  It's worth noting that many of what Likud voters today deem as "left wing" was actually done by the Likud in the past (like the human rights base law [1]). Essentially, when you actually gain power and have to take responsible action, you see that the right wing biblical fantasies can't end well for the county in reality. The problem today is that many of those right wingers who are also religious fundamentalists are now in power, and they care not about this world but about the next [2], so they're willing to make the sacrifice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Human_Dignity_and_L... [2] https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%96%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%92%D7%90%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%94 https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%96%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%9... (It's only in Hebrew, but Google Translate is your friend)

yehosef 3y ago

>The supreme court which is supposedly independent and a very strong human rights law This is the problem - the supreme court is very leftist and has the "authoritarian power" to reject any bill they deem "unreasonable". This is what they are fighting about. Ultimately the fight is about what happens to the state when the majority is religious, which is a demographic inevitability given current trends.

invalidname 3y ago
The supreme court "pretends" to be leftist. That's all part of the trick. Remember that the Human rights law was passed by a Licud government. They approved laws prohibiting Jews from working on the sabath, destroying houses of terrorist families (collective punishment isn't legal in a democracy) etc. But they're perceived as Liberal by the right since they need to blame someone for the pragmatism of their own MPs. > Ultimately the fight is about what happens to the state when the majority is religious, which is a demographic inevitability given current trends. Yes. Although they don't need a majority. All they need is enough non-religious useful idiots who think this is about right vs. left...

poisonarena 3y ago

> Israeli here "Left wing" israeli here..

invalidname 3y ago
Sure. Assumed it was clear from the context.
orwin 3y ago
He seems to be truly left-wing and not a neolib parading as 'center-left' that's oddly close to neocon on all subject but feminism and lgbtq rights, so I don't understand the quotes here.

raincom 3y ago

For someone who doesn't follow the Israeli politics, your reply lays out a broader picture of what's happening.