7 ms·

While I agree that astrology is complete nonsense, you're not likely to win many people over when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racis

by whakim 3y ago

While I agree that astrology is complete nonsense, you're not likely to win many people over when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racism as equivalent.

gedy 3y ago
> when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racism as equivalent. But that's literally what people now call stereotyping: "that's racist"
- Thorrez 3y ago
  Some stereotyping is racist, but not all.
ycombinete 3y ago
Your parent said "akin to racism". You're not likely to win many people over, when you treat "akin" and "equivalent" as equivalent.
- not_a_shill 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nprateem 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - switch007 3y ago
      Hold up, you’re ok with treating her differently because you found her ugly?
      - benterix 3y ago
        It's more and more difficult to detect sarcasm these days but in case you are serious yes, we all treat people differently based on their looks, and it happens especially in sexual relationships and is not limited to humans.
        sillysaurusx 3y ago
        All female software devs reading this just got extremely uncomfortable, and this comment chain no doubt brings up childhood body image issues — issues that men can’t know what it’s like. I point this out from the sidelines in case any thoughtful devs reading this might want to reflect on their behavior. It wasn’t till I married one that I started to reevaluate mine.
        Dalewyn 3y ago
        >childhood body image issues — issues that men can’t know what it’s like. Excuse me? Men have their own flavor of stereotypical body images foisted upon them: Macho, six-packs, muscular arms, upside-down triangular back, etc. For what it's worth though, men seem to care significantly less about body image than women do. Food for thought.
        sillysaurusx 3y ago
        While it’s true that men have body image issues, when’s the last time you’ve seen them objectified the way a woman was in this thread? That might happen too, but not with the same frequency or casualness. Worse, men tend to refuse to believe it’s a problem, and file it in the nonsense bucket. One of the primary roadblocks for women getting into tech is that they’re not encouraged to the same way men are. And once they do, they constantly worry if they’re being treated specially just because they’re a woman — and if they don’t, they wonder if they would’ve gotten in if they looked just a little bit prettier. I’m relaying this from a woman who refuses to participate on HN (for so many reasons). Men seem to like this dynamic we’ve cultivated here. I liked it myself. But those of you who care about equality should take a hard look at our behavior and how we express ourselves.
- whakim 3y ago
  Sure, "akin" isn't an exact synonym for "equivalent." Feel free to replace "equivalent" with "analogous to" if that bothers you; it doesn't really change my point.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
I don’t think astrology is stereotyping, it’s completely made up, not just an oversimplification or over generalization.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- copperx 3y ago
  Maybe we're getting into the unproductive game of definitions, but perhaps stereotyping is still stereotyping when the categories are completely made up. After all, stereotyping implies incorrect categories. Otherwise it would be called classification.
  - Swenrekcah 3y ago
    Getting deeper into semantics, I have always understood stereotypes to be an essentially correct general average. Then of course people are so different that the average for a group fits no person in the group more than perhaps 30% so it always ends up being wrong when applied without thought. But the general stereotype is not “completely made up” so to speak, it’s an observed average. Then of course some total crap is always thrown in the mix but still.
    - skissane 3y ago
      From the viewpoint of the victims of a stereotype, I doubt that the degree of factual foundation which the stereotype possesses makes much of a difference.
    - Izkata 3y ago
      Or based on a misunderstanding, but still coming from a real observation. For example in the US, apparently there used to be a stereotype that polish people are stupid, which came from language differences - polish immigrants had a lot more trouble with English than everyone else, or even were less likely to know any English.
  - benterix 3y ago
yxhuvud 3y ago
They are different in grade, not kind.
wilg 3y ago
He's describing prejudice, and often people mean "racial prejudice" when they talk about "racism" (sometimes they mean "structural racial disadvantage" instead). IMO, this is a fair comparison. Comparing things does not create an equivalence, that's a silly straw man.
- whakim 3y ago
  But stereotype and prejudice don't mean the same thing, even though they're related. Without getting too far into the weeds, stereotypes are (positive or negative) beliefs about characteristics of groups of people, whereas prejudices are internalized negative feelings towards groups of people, often formed on the basis of (usually negative) stereotypes. "what I must like etc [on the basis of star sign]" (quote from OP) is a generalized belief about a characteristic of a group rather than a negative feeling towards a group - a stereotype, not a prejudice. To be clear, I completely agree with the OP in that stereotypes (even positive ones) are harmful in that they don't treat people as individuals. Even if you don't accept this difference between stereotypes and prejudice, however, there's still a big jump to get to racism. I won't attempt (nor do I think I could do justice to) a formal definition of racism, but I think most people would agree that it at least also involves (1) discrimination (individual, structural and/or systemic actions that are based on prejudice); (2) racialization (the social construction of racial groups); and (3) history (racism involves a lot of historical baggage that probably isn't applicable to, say, astrology). So sure, stereotypes aren't totally unrelated to racism - but saying they're "akin" to racism really misses the bigger picture.
  - wilg 3y ago
    A more complex definition of "racism" is unhelpful here. I'm not arguing there aren't additional aspects worthy of discussion. But "racial prejudice" is a perfectly acceptable way to use it, and it is also the dictionary definition. This isn't a teachable moment to explore the nuances of racism, it's simply a metaphor. I think stereotypes are a kind of prejudice, again, using plain definitions. A stereotype is an oversimplified image of a class of people. That's a mechanism by which you might "pre-judge" someone.

by whakim 3y ago

While I agree that astrology is complete nonsense, you're not likely to win many people over when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racism as equivalent.

gedy 3y ago

> when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racism as equivalent. But that's literally what people now call stereotyping: "that's racist"

Thorrez 3y ago
Some stereotyping is racist, but not all.

ycombinete 3y ago

Your parent said "akin to racism". You're not likely to win many people over, when you treat "akin" and "equivalent" as equivalent.

not_a_shill 3y ago
[flagged]
- nprateem 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - switch007 3y ago
    Hold up, you’re ok with treating her differently because you found her ugly?
    - benterix 3y ago
      It's more and more difficult to detect sarcasm these days but in case you are serious yes, we all treat people differently based on their looks, and it happens especially in sexual relationships and is not limited to humans.
      - sillysaurusx 3y ago
        All female software devs reading this just got extremely uncomfortable, and this comment chain no doubt brings up childhood body image issues — issues that men can’t know what it’s like. I point this out from the sidelines in case any thoughtful devs reading this might want to reflect on their behavior. It wasn’t till I married one that I started to reevaluate mine.
        Dalewyn 3y ago
        >childhood body image issues — issues that men can’t know what it’s like. Excuse me? Men have their own flavor of stereotypical body images foisted upon them: Macho, six-packs, muscular arms, upside-down triangular back, etc. For what it's worth though, men seem to care significantly less about body image than women do. Food for thought.
        sillysaurusx 3y ago
        While it’s true that men have body image issues, when’s the last time you’ve seen them objectified the way a woman was in this thread? That might happen too, but not with the same frequency or casualness. Worse, men tend to refuse to believe it’s a problem, and file it in the nonsense bucket. One of the primary roadblocks for women getting into tech is that they’re not encouraged to the same way men are. And once they do, they constantly worry if they’re being treated specially just because they’re a woman — and if they don’t, they wonder if they would’ve gotten in if they looked just a little bit prettier. I’m relaying this from a woman who refuses to participate on HN (for so many reasons). Men seem to like this dynamic we’ve cultivated here. I liked it myself. But those of you who care about equality should take a hard look at our behavior and how we express ourselves.
whakim 3y ago
Sure, "akin" isn't an exact synonym for "equivalent." Feel free to replace "equivalent" with "analogous to" if that bothers you; it doesn't really change my point.

pfannkuchen 3y ago

I don’t think astrology is stereotyping, it’s completely made up, not just an oversimplification or over generalization.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
copperx 3y ago
Maybe we're getting into the unproductive game of definitions, but perhaps stereotyping is still stereotyping when the categories are completely made up. After all, stereotyping implies incorrect categories. Otherwise it would be called classification.
- Swenrekcah 3y ago
  Getting deeper into semantics, I have always understood stereotypes to be an essentially correct general average. Then of course people are so different that the average for a group fits no person in the group more than perhaps 30% so it always ends up being wrong when applied without thought. But the general stereotype is not “completely made up” so to speak, it’s an observed average. Then of course some total crap is always thrown in the mix but still.
  - skissane 3y ago
    From the viewpoint of the victims of a stereotype, I doubt that the degree of factual foundation which the stereotype possesses makes much of a difference.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    Or based on a misunderstanding, but still coming from a real observation. For example in the US, apparently there used to be a stereotype that polish people are stupid, which came from language differences - polish immigrants had a lot more trouble with English than everyone else, or even were less likely to know any English.
- benterix 3y ago

yxhuvud 3y ago

They are different in grade, not kind.

wilg 3y ago

He's describing prejudice, and often people mean "racial prejudice" when they talk about "racism" (sometimes they mean "structural racial disadvantage" instead). IMO, this is a fair comparison. Comparing things does not create an equivalence, that's a silly straw man.

whakim 3y ago
But stereotype and prejudice don't mean the same thing, even though they're related. Without getting too far into the weeds, stereotypes are (positive or negative) beliefs about characteristics of groups of people, whereas prejudices are internalized negative feelings towards groups of people, often formed on the basis of (usually negative) stereotypes. "what I must like etc [on the basis of star sign]" (quote from OP) is a generalized belief about a characteristic of a group rather than a negative feeling towards a group - a stereotype, not a prejudice. To be clear, I completely agree with the OP in that stereotypes (even positive ones) are harmful in that they don't treat people as individuals. Even if you don't accept this difference between stereotypes and prejudice, however, there's still a big jump to get to racism. I won't attempt (nor do I think I could do justice to) a formal definition of racism, but I think most people would agree that it at least also involves (1) discrimination (individual, structural and/or systemic actions that are based on prejudice); (2) racialization (the social construction of racial groups); and (3) history (racism involves a lot of historical baggage that probably isn't applicable to, say, astrology). So sure, stereotypes aren't totally unrelated to racism - but saying they're "akin" to racism really misses the bigger picture.
- wilg 3y ago
  A more complex definition of "racism" is unhelpful here. I'm not arguing there aren't additional aspects worthy of discussion. But "racial prejudice" is a perfectly acceptable way to use it, and it is also the dictionary definition. This isn't a teachable moment to explore the nuances of racism, it's simply a metaphor. I think stereotypes are a kind of prejudice, again, using plain definitions. A stereotype is an oversimplified image of a class of people. That's a mechanism by which you might "pre-judge" someone.