5 ms·

At the end of the day, and this will be controversial it does not matter. Prisons should be a place to house people that have been deemed unable to function in

At the end of the day, and this will be controversial it does not matter. Prisons should be a place to house people that have been deemed unable to function in society until such time they can (sometimes that is never). This is not necessarily only violence but violent offenders should be the majority, but people that simply refuse to follow the rules of a society also degrade and are a danger to the society over all. We see this today in the way of rampant shoplifting, and car thefts/breakins taking place in some communities. These are deemed "non-violent" so the offenders are just let go, however once these "non-violent" crimes reach an extreme level businesses close, people stop shopping in the area, insurance companies stop offering insurance, etc etc etc. That is all with out getting into the real psychological effects of having your property stolen and violated in that way. At the end of the day I am not concerned about their upbringing/situation, I am concerned about their criminality

bugglebeetle 3y ago
Okay, but this logic is explicitly filtered through class in the US context. Some of the most antisocial members of our society are CEOs, politicians, and similar leaders. The damage they inflict on society often far exceeds that by individual acts of violence, fraud, thievery etc. Think about what has been wrought by Sacklers, the people running 3M, or those who led the country into war premised on lies. Indeed, your example of how urban cores have been affected by wealth inequality and real estate speculation is a great example of this. San Francisco was a lovely city until landlords and real estate speculators turned it into a casino for gambling on housing and office space.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >>>San Francisco was a lovely city until landlords and real estate speculators turned it into a casino for gambling on housing and office space. before I even begin to address your others points, many I probably agree with we need to stop with this gas lighting narrative. landlords and real estate speculators are not the villains of the San Francisco of the story. The city government (and the larger state government) is. From the endless zoning regulations, environmental regulations, and building regulations that make it impossible to build affordable housing, and a decades long process to build any housing at all to the activist prosecutors refusing to prosecute crime in the city, to the "de-fund the police" movement that has put the local police dept at a huge understaffed situation.... Those are the root causes of the problems. not landlords and real estate speculators You want to have an honest conversation about corporatism I am game, but you are starting out with disinformation and lies so....
  - jncfhnb 3y ago
    The city government is controlled by the land owning elite.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      Is the city government elected? How do you square support for democracy, and stating the city government is controlled by "the land owning elite" I am told questioning elections is a conspiracy.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Well let me also tell you that proactively playing the victim and daring people to challenge you is cringey and gross. I don’t really like our democratic republic setup personally. I would prefer a popular vote based democracy for presidential elections with federal holiday voting and no ID requirements. Same for city elections although the problems on that scale are different.
        phpisthebest 3y ago
        Well good news, The local elections in San Fran I believe are already your dream.. How is that working out? I really like our electoral college system, believe we need stronger ID requirements to vote, and believe we need to repeal the 17th amendment returning more power to the states, removing it from the federal government. I will agree with one of your reforms, that of a voting holiday, though i would prefer instead to just have Voting week, starting on Sunday, ending on Sat, with no state allowed to release results until the next Monday eliminating the 24 hour news cycle on "election day" and eliminating problems like "voting day bugs" or "rain outs" etc. and the constant battle for "news" organizations to "call" an election 2 seconds into the voting
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        Would you like the electoral college if something silly happened like Texas splitting into a Dallas dominated half and a non Dallas dominated half?
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > San Francisco was a lovely city until landlords and real estate speculators turned it into a casino for gambling on housing and office space. People were complaining about land speculators in SF in Mark Twain’s time. That was literally when the city started growing. So I’m trying to figure out when you thought SF was a lovely city? Maybe during the property bust of the 1990s?
superchroma 3y ago
We've tried it your way for decades - where prisons are permanent storage for badly made humans - and it doesn't work. They fill up, cost the taxpayer and become yet another thing to exploit. Society looks the other way whilst they get mistreated. Obscenities like rape are constant grim realities of such facilities, and organizations like gangs thrive in them too. Recidivism rates are alarming to boot. The point of prisons, which Americans consistently fail to grasp, given their penchant for cruelty and selfishness, is reform. That's what "our responsibility" means. We need to take these broken people and try to rebuild them, because they, their parents and society failed them the first time. Not all of them can be helped, but not to try produces what we have now, which is an abomination.
- refurb 3y ago
  Take a look at California if you want to see a failed attempt at reform - namely NOT incarcerating criminals. The results is worsening crime rates and multiple examples of serial recidivism where the public pays the cost through lower quality of life. I’m not saying there isn’t room for reform, but some people need to be in prison not for their own good, but for the public’s good.
  - superchroma 3y ago
    You're making non-points. California has not effectively deployed various progressive policies. There exists certain people who are intractably violent or cruel and who cannot be healed or changed with the cutting edge of therapy or medicine. So what? This knowledge is not a sufficient excuse to give up on the problem. The status quo is unacceptable. That's the key fact.
    - refurb 3y ago
      California has not effectively deployed various progressive policies Oh yes it has. Mass release of violent criminals during Covid. Repeat offenders being released even for violent crimes. They are finally figuring out that these are the exact people who cause so many crimes. Shocking!

bugglebeetle 3y ago

Okay, but this logic is explicitly filtered through class in the US context. Some of the most antisocial members of our society are CEOs, politicians, and similar leaders. The damage they inflict on society often far exceeds that by individual acts of violence, fraud, thievery etc. Think about what has been wrought by Sacklers, the people running 3M, or those who led the country into war premised on lies. Indeed, your example of how urban cores have been affected by wealth inequality and real estate speculation is a great example of this. San Francisco was a lovely city until landlords and real estate speculators turned it into a casino for gambling on housing and office space.

phpisthebest 3y ago
>>>San Francisco was a lovely city until landlords and real estate speculators turned it into a casino for gambling on housing and office space. before I even begin to address your others points, many I probably agree with we need to stop with this gas lighting narrative. landlords and real estate speculators are not the villains of the San Francisco of the story. The city government (and the larger state government) is. From the endless zoning regulations, environmental regulations, and building regulations that make it impossible to build affordable housing, and a decades long process to build any housing at all to the activist prosecutors refusing to prosecute crime in the city, to the "de-fund the police" movement that has put the local police dept at a huge understaffed situation.... Those are the root causes of the problems. not landlords and real estate speculators You want to have an honest conversation about corporatism I am game, but you are starting out with disinformation and lies so....
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  The city government is controlled by the land owning elite.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    Is the city government elected? How do you square support for democracy, and stating the city government is controlled by "the land owning elite" I am told questioning elections is a conspiracy.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Well let me also tell you that proactively playing the victim and daring people to challenge you is cringey and gross. I don’t really like our democratic republic setup personally. I would prefer a popular vote based democracy for presidential elections with federal holiday voting and no ID requirements. Same for city elections although the problems on that scale are different.
      - phpisthebest 3y ago
        Well good news, The local elections in San Fran I believe are already your dream.. How is that working out? I really like our electoral college system, believe we need stronger ID requirements to vote, and believe we need to repeal the 17th amendment returning more power to the states, removing it from the federal government. I will agree with one of your reforms, that of a voting holiday, though i would prefer instead to just have Voting week, starting on Sunday, ending on Sat, with no state allowed to release results until the next Monday eliminating the 24 hour news cycle on "election day" and eliminating problems like "voting day bugs" or "rain outs" etc. and the constant battle for "news" organizations to "call" an election 2 seconds into the voting
        jncfhnb 3y ago
        Would you like the electoral college if something silly happened like Texas splitting into a Dallas dominated half and a non Dallas dominated half?
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> San Francisco was a lovely city until landlords and real estate speculators turned it into a casino for gambling on housing and office space. People were complaining about land speculators in SF in Mark Twain’s time. That was literally when the city started growing. So I’m trying to figure out when you thought SF was a lovely city? Maybe during the property bust of the 1990s?

superchroma 3y ago

We've tried it your way for decades - where prisons are permanent storage for badly made humans - and it doesn't work. They fill up, cost the taxpayer and become yet another thing to exploit. Society looks the other way whilst they get mistreated. Obscenities like rape are constant grim realities of such facilities, and organizations like gangs thrive in them too. Recidivism rates are alarming to boot. The point of prisons, which Americans consistently fail to grasp, given their penchant for cruelty and selfishness, is reform. That's what "our responsibility" means. We need to take these broken people and try to rebuild them, because they, their parents and society failed them the first time. Not all of them can be helped, but not to try produces what we have now, which is an abomination.

refurb 3y ago
Take a look at California if you want to see a failed attempt at reform - namely NOT incarcerating criminals. The results is worsening crime rates and multiple examples of serial recidivism where the public pays the cost through lower quality of life. I’m not saying there isn’t room for reform, but some people need to be in prison not for their own good, but for the public’s good.
- superchroma 3y ago
  You're making non-points. California has not effectively deployed various progressive policies. There exists certain people who are intractably violent or cruel and who cannot be healed or changed with the cutting edge of therapy or medicine. So what? This knowledge is not a sufficient excuse to give up on the problem. The status quo is unacceptable. That's the key fact.
  - refurb 3y ago
    California has not effectively deployed various progressive policies Oh yes it has. Mass release of violent criminals during Covid. Repeat offenders being released even for violent crimes. They are finally figuring out that these are the exact people who cause so many crimes. Shocking!