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Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos
- mhh__ 3y agoRemember (contrarian right twitter) France has fallen but South Africa (Vis a Vis BRICS) is a-ok
- throwawaysleep 3y agoBut per them, a short while ago whites were being exterminated and South Africa was facing famine as a result.
- chmod600 3y ago"held out the promise of an efficient state-led economy that would uplift the downtrodden Black majority. And for a while, it did." There it is, the perpetually-available deal offered by all politicians: give us power and we will fix problem X (or maybe all problems). Maybe intentions are good and the power is used to alleviate problem X. But soon those interested in solving X are replaced by those interested in the power. And then the people are left with at least as many problems as before, but they've already given up the power and won't get it back.
- slavboj 3y agoSounds like a pretty good argument that South Africa's previous regime should not have given up power.
- benj111 3y agoIs it? Are you suggesting apartheid should have continued?
- dotancohen 3y agoSounds to me that he is arguing that sometimes, in fact, exchanging power for solving a problem is a worthy trade-off.
- chmod600 3y agoThe people could have a new government without buying into promises about "an efficient state-led economy".
- nine_k 3y agoThe previous South African regime was somewhat economically liberal, and that was good, But it was very politically oppressing based on race, and that was bad. Now it has reversed: the current regime is not racially oppressing, which is good, but it's not economically liberal, and the results are sad. Not nearly as bad as in Zimbabwe, but still could be much better. So far, a properly run free market has been showing the best results of all approaches tried by humanity. Any attempts at controlling economy against its laws ended up in really poor results. The market works best under self-governing regimes, like republics and constitutional monarchies, where the law is equal for everyone, and is enforced. It still performs reasonably well in visibly authoritarian conditions, like (prewar) Russia, Turkey, or Xi's China, where some amount of rule of law remains, and corruption does not run rampant. But the less efficiently run is the state (and efficiency correlates heavily with democratic regimes), the more the market deteriorates, and with it, does all economic prosperity. This only makes governmental inefficiency felt more heavily, the more prominent the corruption becomes, and the vicious circle continues. AFAICT this is what is happening in South Africa for last few years.
- ur-whale 3y agohttps://archive.is/6IeKj https://archive.is/6IeKj
- woodpanel 3y ago[flagged]
- no1groyp 3y ago[dead]
- TMWNN 3y agoI recently read a book review that discussed South Africa today. One of the many points it made about the dire state of things is that the air force planes that flew overhead during Mandela's inauguration were, a decade later, completely inoperable.
- landoftheice 3y ago[dead]
- bigfryo 3y agoSo just like the rest of sub saharan africa?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- chmod600 3y agoThe racism of apartheid is a moral abomination while a failed state is not. Kind of strange to think about. Not saying that's wrong; just observing. A failed state is treated more like bad weather something that just happens.
- mieses 3y agoAnd unlike weather forecasting, communism ending in failure is a 100% certainty. Yet communists somehow are able to take the moral high ground. We have advanced well beyond the middle ages where it was reasonable to hold intellectual and political elites to moral standards.
- ashwagary 3y agoChina kicked out invaders and redistributed their ill gotten lands. Fast forward and they are doing well. The only reason westerners dont like this model is their monopolies and many corrupt entities get destroyed in the process.
- rejectfinite 3y ago[flagged]
- tifik 3y agoI dont know if you are being racist or trying to sarcastically point out racism against white people, but the first sentence in the article says "Corruption, government incompetence and policy paralysis", and Im guessing SAR doesnt have a white only govt.
- jimbob45 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36838661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36838661 He’s responding to the original title of the article.
- NoRelToEmber 3y agoThis is Bloomberg, not NYTimes/Atlantic/The Guardian/VOX/NBC/Washington Post/CBC/..
- toomuchtodo 3y agohttps://archive.is/Ucu4S https://archive.is/Ucu4S
- oatmeal1 3y agoWhen people vote for politicians based on moral appeals instead of practical qualifications, corruption is much more likely; politicians don't have to do a good job, they just have to appear to be on the "good" side.
- alephnerd 3y agoPeople vote for the ANC in SA because there isn't an alternative party at the national level. Once you vote for the party, the party then decides who will lead. Even the article notes that the first 15 years of ANC rule saw significant development, as does HDI data [0]. The issue was that Jacob Zuma essentially destroyed RSA thanks to his corruption. And the only reason he became President was because he headed the ANC's intelligence department from the 70s to the 90s, and as such had dirt on everyone. [0] - https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/south-africa https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/south-africa
- cpleppert 3y agoThe significant development after the end of apartheid was more due to a very favorable international economic environment and the elimination of sanctions that restricted south africa's ability to export resources. Additionally, the end of apartheid was in itself a massive economic boon as it created new sources of labor. The performance of the ANC has always been poor in South Africa. The party engaged in widespread AIDS denialism and dramatically cut investment as it attempted to help poor black africans through a variety of mostly poorly run schemes. Corruption was always present and connections with the ANC became essential in south africa. Today's troubles are the result of decisions made years ago.
- alephnerd 3y agoSouth Africa's HDI skyrocketed from 2007-2013, which can be attributed to a mix of FDI as well was investments in human development in the 90s and early 2000s. Before then, South Africa largely plataued developmentally. Economic growth =/= Development btw
- opyate 3y ago
- Thoeu388 3y agoYet another example how collectivism and socialism works. In decade or so, they will start killing farmers for "hiding" and "price gauging" food.
- rejectfinite 3y agoThis is corruption, not socialism.
- AnotherGoodName 3y agoMeh I'm from a nation way more socialist than the USA and we have 3x the median wealth per capita (Australia). We have a much lower mean wealth though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... If you're one of the top 1% in America life is great. But the 99% should not be going around saying socialism sucks. That to me indicates you're gullibility and mindless support of the 1% who have waaaay too large a share of the wealth. The 99% have a lot of room to increase their wealth in America at the expense of the average by leaning a little more into socialism honestly.
- LegitShady 3y ago>Meh I'm from a nation way more socialist than the USA Australia is not socialist, period. Its a market economy.
- marsven_422 3y ago[dead]
- houseatrielah 3y agoSerpentza, a YouTuber from South Africa, did a video on this recently. The money that should have been spent on infrastructure was squandered and the possibility of the electric grid collapsing is real. He posted a screenshot from an app that his parents deal with; it was 12 hours of blackouts, 12 hours of power. Plus the currency is worthless and 50% unemployment leads to very high crime levels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHxh_sQHH0E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHxh_sQHH0E
- ashwagary 3y agoAfter viewing dozens of his videos, I get the impression Serpentza is a paid propagandist. Take his claims with a heap of skepticism.
- tomjen3 3y agoIf you are going to post comments like that you need to post evidence, otherwise its just a cheap attempt to poison the waters.
- rejectfinite 3y agopaid by whom?
- check98 3y ago[flagged]
- spacebanana7 3y agoIt’s tragic that Nelson Mandela‘s legacy is so strong that the ANC can‘t lose an election; even if they underperform in almost every task of government.
- prmph 3y agoMeh, SA has supposedly been on the "brink of chaos" ever since Apartheid ended, and yet it never happens. I'm getting tired of this narrative. I've visited once. Yes, many things seem to have gone south, but those are growing pains every country goes through to achieve a proper political and economic system. Of course it is easy to avoid "chaos" when the majority of the people are brutally suppressed. Actually crafting a proper political and economic system is not as easy as it seems. Europe for instance had to go through horrible wars for centuries before its nations learned to live in relative peace.
- mistrial9 3y agoapparently SA is on the brink of not doing what the USA tells them to do, resulting in USA media panic on unrelated and long-standing topics
- rejectfinite 3y agoIs USA the reason they have 12h long "load shedding"/power cut sessions?
- alephnerd 3y agoIdk. Using HDI [0] you can see that ZA was middle of the pack developmentally in the 90s, but platueaed until 2007, when the commodity boom and BRICS fervor saw ZA's development skyrocket. Yet by 2013 onwards, that development began to plateau again. Furthermore, ZA is a country that is traditionally compared to other rising economies like China, Brazil, India, Malaysia, Mexico, Thailand, etc. In the 2000s, ZA was far ahead of China developmentally and comparable to Mexico and Brazil, yet all 3 countries have overtaken ZA. Heck, in 1990 Malaysia, Thailand, and South Africa were all comparable developmentally yet Malaysia and Thailand in 2023 have hit the precipice of becoming a developed country (HDI at 0.8 and above) while South Africa is still stuck. Even Vietnam, a country that in 1990 was one of the poorest countries in the world has now in 2023 caught up to South Africa developmentally. This absolutely constitutes a collapse. Mind you it's not as bad as Venezuela's (China in 2023 has only just hit developmental indicators that Venezuela had in the late 2000s and early 2010s, yet Venezuela had regressed to the same level as China in the early 2000s), but it is absolutely a massive regression. [0] - https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/south-africa https://countryeconomy.com/hdi/south-africa
- factsaresacred 3y ago"There Are No Successful Black Nations" was the original title of this article in Foreign Policy: https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/09/why-black-people-must-help-africa-develop-racism-pan-africanism/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/09/why-black-people-must-h... It's an uncomfortable title, but it's a truth that must be confronted. How have once downtrodden countries like Korea, China, and large swaths of Eastern Europe been able to turn rags into riches while most of Africa has so far failed to? GDP is not everything of course. But even on measures of safety, why is Africa so much more violent than equally poor Laos or Cambodia? South America shares some of Africa's woes, so perhaps it's not a uniquely African problem. But it seems less bad, and the region has produced success stories. I've heard it said that Africa has yet to have its naissance. Maybe, hopefully, that's it and things will get better over time. But with the current corrupt institutions and leadership that looks to be a gargantuan task.
- jimbob45 3y agoAre we not counting Haiti or Jamaica? If we’re counting “black” as “African”, then yeah. But then “There are no successful African countries” seems a lot less difficult to prove/refute.
- rejectfinite 3y agoSuccessful compared to South Korea and China? Even eastern europe? And you say “Jamaica”? Do you not see the absurdity?
- TMWNN 3y agoJamaica, and especially Haiti, are in no way "successes". The Dominican Republic is not exactly a rich country, but the contrast between it and Haiti are so stark as to beggar the imagination. Relevant: TIL that Haiti has had 23 constitutions since 1801, with the most recent being enacted in 2012. At least two have declared the country to be an empire. <https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_that_haiti_has_had_23_constitutions_since/ https://np.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/3t5wzt/til_th...>
- rejectfinite 3y ago