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One of the many consequences of global warming is going to be a reckoning of trying to support large cities in areas that fundamentally cannot sustain them. Las

One of the many consequences of global warming is going to be a reckoning of trying to support large cities in areas that fundamentally cannot sustain them. Las Vegas, Phoenix, even Southern California do not really have any business existing in their present forms.

tnel77 3y ago
If you get rid of private swimming pools, golf courses, and water hungry farming in those regions, I think they’d be fine to continue as is. Aka: be smarter with water
api 3y ago
I disagree. These cities have vast amounts of solar power to the point that they could, with storage, not only self sustain on mostly just rooftop solar but could perhaps even be net energy exporters. They’re also not in areas likely to be inundated by flooding, and they are not in places where their expansion destroys forests. They are low density today too meaning they have tremendous room to build up. Lack of freeze thaw cycles means roads and buildings last longer, reducing energy use in constant repair and CO2 from constant reapplication of concrete and asphalt. Water is their big problem but with cheap renewable energy that problem is solvable either with pipelines or desalination. Lastly air conditioning takes less power than winter heating in extremely cold climates and like I said above is more easily fueled by renewable energy. Solar generation peaks exactly with A/C demand. Cities up North tend to burn tons of fossil fuels for heat and that is harder to decarbonize. Heat pumps help but it’s still more intensive than A/C. If the water problem is solvable these cities could become far more sustainable than say New York or Chicago due to all their cheap solar.
- scrollaway 3y ago
  > If the water problem is solvable Pretty big "if", gotta say.
- wheelerof4te 3y ago
  "Water is their big problem but with cheap renewable energy that problem is solvable either with pipelines or desalination." So, they kill their big advantage by using it to kill the biggest disadvantage? Where is the gain in this? And it's not OR situation, but AND. They would need both desalination plants and lots of pipelines to just alleviate, not SOLVE the water problem.
  - api 3y ago
    90% of water use in California is agricultural, not urban. Not sure about Arizona but it’s probably at least close. The city water problem is smaller than you think. Cities don’t directly use much water. I do think we will be forced by climate change to relocate some agriculture. We probably won’t be growing water heavy crops in the Southwest in 50 years.
NamTaf 3y ago
That's going to be peanuts against the reckoning of having incredibly population-dense places like Bangladesh, etc. mass-displaced. I think it's going to make the 2010s migrant crisis look like peanuts.
- tnel77 3y ago
  Honestly, I think you are going to see mass death and chaos in third world countries. The militaries of the first world countries are going to unite in a “us versus them” mentality and it’ll be bloody. Billions will die and we might hit our emission reduction goals as a result. The first world will be hit hard, but will adapt and limp along (likely under fascism).
isykt 3y ago
Weather is not climate. Phoenix being 113F for 3 weeks no more proves climate change than an extra snowy Twin Cities winter disproves it. Moreover: Saudi Arabia exists.
- yreg 3y ago
  RealLifeLore made that video just yesterday: Why Saudi Arabia is the World's Most Doomed Country https://youtu.be/txmzVsBniZQ https://youtu.be/txmzVsBniZQ
  - isykt 3y ago
    Saudi Arabia is doomed because they have an extractive economy dependent on a globalized trade system that is unraveling due to American neglect. Not because of climate change. Climate change is real. But it isn’t the cause of every problem, and it isn’t evidenced by extreme weather phenomena per se.
XorNot 3y ago
Las Vegas is very efficient with water though, for the city proper. Cities aren't farmland, building one in a desert is basically an excellent use of land.
throw0101a 3y ago
> Las Vegas, Phoenix, even Southern California do not really have any business existing in their present forms. The Odd Lots podcast recently had an episode "An Arizona Farmer on How to Grow Alfalfa in the Middle of the Desert": > Due to a combination of drought, climate change and booming growth, Arizona is facing looming water scarcity. But for all the sprawl and population increase, the overwhelming amount of water used in the state is not consumed by residences, but rather farmers. So naturally, many argue that we should be doing less agriculture in the desert and move the production of cotton, alfalfa and various vegetables towards places with more rain. On this episode, we speak with Trevor Bales, the proprietor of Bales Hay Farm & Ranch in Arizona about his family’s history in the state and why he thinks this dry desert is a great place to grow alfalfa. * https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/an-arizona-farmer-on-how-to-grow-alfalfa-in-the-mi https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/an-arizona-farmer-on-how-to-g... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owieQnPYfT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owieQnPYfT8 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36741112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36741112 One observation: some of the earliest civilizations in history have been in arid areas, e.g., Mesopotamia, Egypt. They just happen to be settled near rivers—just like the Native American did with what is now know as Phoenix: > The Hohokam people occupied the Phoenix area for 2,000 years.[23][24] They created roughly 135 miles (217 kilometers) of irrigation canals, making the desert land arable, and paths of these canals were used for the Arizona Canal, Central Arizona Project Canal, and the Hayden-Rhodes Aqueduct. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#History * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Phoenix,_Arizona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Phoenix,_Arizona
megaman821 3y ago
It is easier to keep warm than to cool down, but surprisingly these cities use less energy than their cold brethren. Also the cooling needs greatly correlate to solar availability so the potential to be very climate friendly is there. Cold northern climates mostly burn gas for heat which very climate unfriendly. In the US cold weather state use the most energy per capita, followed by hot states, and then of course temperate climates use the least.

tnel77 3y ago

If you get rid of private swimming pools, golf courses, and water hungry farming in those regions, I think they’d be fine to continue as is. Aka: be smarter with water

api 3y ago

I disagree. These cities have vast amounts of solar power to the point that they could, with storage, not only self sustain on mostly just rooftop solar but could perhaps even be net energy exporters. They’re also not in areas likely to be inundated by flooding, and they are not in places where their expansion destroys forests. They are low density today too meaning they have tremendous room to build up. Lack of freeze thaw cycles means roads and buildings last longer, reducing energy use in constant repair and CO2 from constant reapplication of concrete and asphalt. Water is their big problem but with cheap renewable energy that problem is solvable either with pipelines or desalination. Lastly air conditioning takes less power than winter heating in extremely cold climates and like I said above is more easily fueled by renewable energy. Solar generation peaks exactly with A/C demand. Cities up North tend to burn tons of fossil fuels for heat and that is harder to decarbonize. Heat pumps help but it’s still more intensive than A/C. If the water problem is solvable these cities could become far more sustainable than say New York or Chicago due to all their cheap solar.

scrollaway 3y ago
> If the water problem is solvable Pretty big "if", gotta say.
wheelerof4te 3y ago
"Water is their big problem but with cheap renewable energy that problem is solvable either with pipelines or desalination." So, they kill their big advantage by using it to kill the biggest disadvantage? Where is the gain in this? And it's not OR situation, but AND. They would need both desalination plants and lots of pipelines to just alleviate, not SOLVE the water problem.
- api 3y ago
  90% of water use in California is agricultural, not urban. Not sure about Arizona but it’s probably at least close. The city water problem is smaller than you think. Cities don’t directly use much water. I do think we will be forced by climate change to relocate some agriculture. We probably won’t be growing water heavy crops in the Southwest in 50 years.

NamTaf 3y ago

That's going to be peanuts against the reckoning of having incredibly population-dense places like Bangladesh, etc. mass-displaced. I think it's going to make the 2010s migrant crisis look like peanuts.

tnel77 3y ago
Honestly, I think you are going to see mass death and chaos in third world countries. The militaries of the first world countries are going to unite in a “us versus them” mentality and it’ll be bloody. Billions will die and we might hit our emission reduction goals as a result. The first world will be hit hard, but will adapt and limp along (likely under fascism).

isykt 3y ago

Weather is not climate. Phoenix being 113F for 3 weeks no more proves climate change than an extra snowy Twin Cities winter disproves it. Moreover: Saudi Arabia exists.

yreg 3y ago
RealLifeLore made that video just yesterday: Why Saudi Arabia is the World's Most Doomed Country https://youtu.be/txmzVsBniZQ https://youtu.be/txmzVsBniZQ
- isykt 3y ago
  Saudi Arabia is doomed because they have an extractive economy dependent on a globalized trade system that is unraveling due to American neglect. Not because of climate change. Climate change is real. But it isn’t the cause of every problem, and it isn’t evidenced by extreme weather phenomena per se.

XorNot 3y ago

Las Vegas is very efficient with water though, for the city proper. Cities aren't farmland, building one in a desert is basically an excellent use of land.

throw0101a 3y ago

> Las Vegas, Phoenix, even Southern California do not really have any business existing in their present forms. The Odd Lots podcast recently had an episode "An Arizona Farmer on How to Grow Alfalfa in the Middle of the Desert": > Due to a combination of drought, climate change and booming growth, Arizona is facing looming water scarcity. But for all the sprawl and population increase, the overwhelming amount of water used in the state is not consumed by residences, but rather farmers. So naturally, many argue that we should be doing less agriculture in the desert and move the production of cotton, alfalfa and various vegetables towards places with more rain. On this episode, we speak with Trevor Bales, the proprietor of Bales Hay Farm & Ranch in Arizona about his family’s history in the state and why he thinks this dry desert is a great place to grow alfalfa. * https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/an-arizona-farmer-on-how-to-grow-alfalfa-in-the-mi https://omny.fm/shows/odd-lots/an-arizona-farmer-on-how-to-g... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owieQnPYfT8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owieQnPYfT8 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36741112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36741112 One observation: some of the earliest civilizations in history have been in arid areas, e.g., Mesopotamia, Egypt. They just happen to be settled near rivers—just like the Native American did with what is now know as Phoenix: > The Hohokam people occupied the Phoenix area for 2,000 years.[23][24] They created roughly 135 miles (217 kilometers) of irrigation canals, making the desert land arable, and paths of these canals were used for the Arizona Canal, Central Arizona Project Canal, and the Hayden-Rhodes Aqueduct. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#History * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Phoenix,_Arizona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Phoenix,_Arizona

megaman821 3y ago

It is easier to keep warm than to cool down, but surprisingly these cities use less energy than their cold brethren. Also the cooling needs greatly correlate to solar availability so the potential to be very climate friendly is there. Cold northern climates mostly burn gas for heat which very climate unfriendly. In the US cold weather state use the most energy per capita, followed by hot states, and then of course temperate climates use the least.