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... As are ICE vehicles. Tire rubber is one of the major sources of microplastics after all, or did people think it just vanished? > New EV models tend to be h

... As are ICE vehicles. Tire rubber is one of the major sources of microplastics after all, or did people think it just vanished? > New EV models tend to be heavier and quicker—generating more particulates and deepening the danger. Compared to what? I'm pretty sure a Nissan Leaf has nothing on an ICE escalade.

MBCook 3y ago
The heavier the vehicle, the more particles. Yeah. EVs are much worse, until we find some magical battery breakthrough or realize not everyone needs 350 mile range. That said I’ll take worse tire emissions over better tire emissions plus CO2 + CO + NO2 + whatever else + all the emissions creating/moving gas. You want lower EV tire emissions? Cut down own the need to drive.
- lockhouse 3y ago
  The problem is that the range of your new EV will only decrease with time. A car with 350 mile range will become much lower after 5 years. > According to Geotab, a transportation connectivity services company, an average EV loses 2.3% of its battery capacity each year that it's in service. An EV that has a 300-mile-range would have a 293-mile-range after a year. After five years on the road, you could expect a range of 266 miles on a single charge. https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-ba...
  - undersuit 3y ago
    Why does that matter if I only need 50 miles of range for my day to day?
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      It might not matter for you. It does matter for the people making a trip across the country. Some people need cars for more than just a 50 mile daily commute.
      - EA-3167 3y ago
        What percentage of overall miles driven are accounted for by cross-country (or lets just say multi-day trips) out of the total number of miles driven? The stat I can find states that for single-trip journeys 98% are under 50 miles, with those over 70 miles being 1%. Obviously "single-trip" is doing plenty of work there, but you can go surprisingly far in a day of driving and those are still pretty small numbers. Maybe at the end of the day the car is just not the best way to go across a country as large as the US.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        It doesn’t matter what percent of trips that represents, a lot of Americans won’t buy EVs that aren’t capable of making these trips when they want to make them. Nobody wants to take a Greyhound bus to see their parents that live 4 hours away in the next state over.
        EA-3167 3y ago
        The thing is we know already that single-trips like that are less than 1% of all miles driven, and 4 hours is definitely a single-trip. I'd add that even with an EV and needing to stop for a charge, that's still very much a single trip affair. I'm sure that some people won't buy a car on that basis, but I suspect the vast majority will. The more people buy them, the more the infrastructure caters to it, the more the technology is funded and advances, and the remaining holdouts will eventually be sufficiently incentivized.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        I’m not arguing against EVs at all, just making the case that 350 miles of range isn’t excessive by any means, especially once you account for battery degradation over time. Personally the absolute minimum range I would consider for an EV is 250 miles with 300 or more being ideal.
        supertrope 3y ago
        The existence of right off highway gas stations, rest stops, motels, and fast food restaurants caters to road trippers. As much as I wish we had a robust inter-city train network people expect to be able to drive 400 miles in a day, stopping only every 1-2 hours for 10 min. As opposed to waiting for one of four charging spots to become available and taking 30 min to get another 100 mi of range.
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      > Why does that matter if I only need 50 miles of range for my day to day? Because, as a practical matter, short range vehicles suck. I don't want to have to charge my car every five minutes. And if you want to tow with a pick up truck EV there's just no getting away from the practical reality that you need many kilowatt hours in your battery pack. The Chevy Silverado EV has around about a 212 kWh battery pack in the longest range trim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN358zio7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN358zio7A And you need those kWhs for towing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGPxjg_jDog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGPxjg_jDog
      - undersuit 3y ago
        >I don't want to have to charge my car every five minutes. What kind of range are you envisioning here? >And if you want to tow with a pick up truck EV there's just no getting away from the practical reality that you need many kilowatt hours in your battery pack. But I don't have a pickup. Should I buy a pickup for this chance? >And you need those kWhs for towing Well yes I obviously need the power to tow my groceries home.
        clouddrover 3y ago
        > What kind of range are you envisioning here? My personal benchmark is 400 miles real world highway range. The Lucid Air achieves 500 miles real world highway. The Mercedes EQS is almost there at 395: https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ The Chevy Silverado EV will supposedly achieve more than 400 miles. My benchmark is not a high bar. > Well yes I obviously need the power to tow my groceries home. Kilowatt hours is energy content, not power.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > until we find some magical battery breakthrough It doesn't have to be magical. It can just be steady improvement in battery chemistry. Nio's cars have swappable battery packs. The current battery sizes they use are 75 kWh, 100 kWh, and their new battery option is 150 kWh: https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/07/nio-user-manuals-include-150-kwh-battery/ https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/07/nio-user-manuals-include-150... From 75 to 150 kWh that's a doubling of energy content in the same physical pack dimensions, and the 150 kWh pack has only a 20 kg weight increase versus the 100 kWh pack. A 75 or 100 kWh pack with the same WeLion chemistry would weigh less than Nio's existing 75 and 100 kWh packs. Once production scales up Nio may well switch all the packs to the WeLion chemistry if the price is right. That's not achieved through magic. It's achieved through better battery chemistry.

MBCook 3y ago

The heavier the vehicle, the more particles. Yeah. EVs are much worse, until we find some magical battery breakthrough or realize not everyone needs 350 mile range. That said I’ll take worse tire emissions over better tire emissions plus CO2 + CO + NO2 + whatever else + all the emissions creating/moving gas. You want lower EV tire emissions? Cut down own the need to drive.

lockhouse 3y ago
The problem is that the range of your new EV will only decrease with time. A car with 350 mile range will become much lower after 5 years. > According to Geotab, a transportation connectivity services company, an average EV loses 2.3% of its battery capacity each year that it's in service. An EV that has a 300-mile-range would have a 293-mile-range after a year. After five years on the road, you could expect a range of 266 miles on a single charge. https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-ba...
- undersuit 3y ago
  Why does that matter if I only need 50 miles of range for my day to day?
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    It might not matter for you. It does matter for the people making a trip across the country. Some people need cars for more than just a 50 mile daily commute.
    - EA-3167 3y ago
      What percentage of overall miles driven are accounted for by cross-country (or lets just say multi-day trips) out of the total number of miles driven? The stat I can find states that for single-trip journeys 98% are under 50 miles, with those over 70 miles being 1%. Obviously "single-trip" is doing plenty of work there, but you can go surprisingly far in a day of driving and those are still pretty small numbers. Maybe at the end of the day the car is just not the best way to go across a country as large as the US.
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        It doesn’t matter what percent of trips that represents, a lot of Americans won’t buy EVs that aren’t capable of making these trips when they want to make them. Nobody wants to take a Greyhound bus to see their parents that live 4 hours away in the next state over.
        EA-3167 3y ago
        The thing is we know already that single-trips like that are less than 1% of all miles driven, and 4 hours is definitely a single-trip. I'd add that even with an EV and needing to stop for a charge, that's still very much a single trip affair. I'm sure that some people won't buy a car on that basis, but I suspect the vast majority will. The more people buy them, the more the infrastructure caters to it, the more the technology is funded and advances, and the remaining holdouts will eventually be sufficiently incentivized.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        I’m not arguing against EVs at all, just making the case that 350 miles of range isn’t excessive by any means, especially once you account for battery degradation over time. Personally the absolute minimum range I would consider for an EV is 250 miles with 300 or more being ideal.
      - supertrope 3y ago
        The existence of right off highway gas stations, rest stops, motels, and fast food restaurants caters to road trippers. As much as I wish we had a robust inter-city train network people expect to be able to drive 400 miles in a day, stopping only every 1-2 hours for 10 min. As opposed to waiting for one of four charging spots to become available and taking 30 min to get another 100 mi of range.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > Why does that matter if I only need 50 miles of range for my day to day? Because, as a practical matter, short range vehicles suck. I don't want to have to charge my car every five minutes. And if you want to tow with a pick up truck EV there's just no getting away from the practical reality that you need many kilowatt hours in your battery pack. The Chevy Silverado EV has around about a 212 kWh battery pack in the longest range trim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN358zio7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUN358zio7A And you need those kWhs for towing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGPxjg_jDog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGPxjg_jDog
    - undersuit 3y ago
      >I don't want to have to charge my car every five minutes. What kind of range are you envisioning here? >And if you want to tow with a pick up truck EV there's just no getting away from the practical reality that you need many kilowatt hours in your battery pack. But I don't have a pickup. Should I buy a pickup for this chance? >And you need those kWhs for towing Well yes I obviously need the power to tow my groceries home.
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        > What kind of range are you envisioning here? My personal benchmark is 400 miles real world highway range. The Lucid Air achieves 500 miles real world highway. The Mercedes EQS is almost there at 395: https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/ The Chevy Silverado EV will supposedly achieve more than 400 miles. My benchmark is not a high bar. > Well yes I obviously need the power to tow my groceries home. Kilowatt hours is energy content, not power.
clouddrover 3y ago
> until we find some magical battery breakthrough It doesn't have to be magical. It can just be steady improvement in battery chemistry. Nio's cars have swappable battery packs. The current battery sizes they use are 75 kWh, 100 kWh, and their new battery option is 150 kWh: https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/07/nio-user-manuals-include-150-kwh-battery/ https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/07/nio-user-manuals-include-150... From 75 to 150 kWh that's a doubling of energy content in the same physical pack dimensions, and the 150 kWh pack has only a 20 kg weight increase versus the 100 kWh pack. A 75 or 100 kWh pack with the same WeLion chemistry would weigh less than Nio's existing 75 and 100 kWh packs. Once production scales up Nio may well switch all the packs to the WeLion chemistry if the price is right. That's not achieved through magic. It's achieved through better battery chemistry.