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This is good for society just like any productivity enhancing invention. You'd think a place like HN would know that the only way the world has ever gotten bett

by cm2012 3y ago

This is good for society just like any productivity enhancing invention. You'd think a place like HN would know that the only way the world has ever gotten better has been innovation improving per-human output.

RugnirViking 3y ago
in theory: customer support automation frees up support workers from focusing on repetetive customer issues to being able to devote more time to those difficult issues, providing better service at lower cost in practise: have you ever used any automated customer support for anything? it speaks for itself - it's literally worse than nothing.
- cm2012 3y ago
  Phone tree support is awful. AI of GPT4 level works because it is 100x better than that. And it will only get better in the next 5 years.
  - tempodox 3y ago
    Promises, promises. They remind me of how cryptocurrencies were going to make everything better. “Just wait another 5 years and you'll see.”
- avery17 3y ago
  We've never had a gpt powered customer support though. It will be fine tuned on all of their recorded customer interactions ever. I could see this being way better than typical customer support where you have minimally trained, low wage employees who barely know how to use a computer just reading a script.
  - krainboltgreene 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    You do understand that your comment is self nullifying right? If the majority of support people are "minimally trained, low wage employees who barely know how to use a computer just reading a script." then how exactly is the AI going to be better by using the recorded interactions of "low wage employees who barely know how to use a computer just reading a script"
  - kec 3y ago
    The problem with customer support broadly isn’t having the agent understand you, it’s often about escalation until you get to an agent with the authority to handle your particular exceptional circumstance. There is no godly way any company will ever allow a chatbot, however capable, to go off script.
    - splatzone 3y ago
      No, but it could defer to a human if it’s unable to assist. If a chatbot can cover 80% of common support tasks, that vastly reduces the number of support staff but those who remain will be necessarily more skilled and have more authority
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  In practice I see a lot of businesses murdering their competition because they offer better customer service.
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    I will pay up to 100% markup on things if: 1) I know there's a chance I'll need customer service with that thing 2) The company I'm buying from has actually good customer service.
  - RugnirViking 3y ago
    the biggest companies in the world (microsoft, google, netflix, amazon, facebook) have pretty awful customer service no imo. What kinds of companies are you talking about?
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      The world is so much more than these few tech giants where everybody at HN works.
      - raincole 3y ago
        Then give examples. You can't give 0 examples (while the comment you're replying to gave a list) and pretend you know better at the same time.
        carlosjobim 3y ago
        For example Apple is famous for their good customer service, and it seems that worked out well for them.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  in practise: have you ever used any automated customer support for anything? I've used it to cancel orders, cancel subscriptions, change a broadband package, arrange a return/refund for faulty goods. Do you prefer to talk to a human for things like this?
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    No I prefer to use a normal user interface.
    - rahimnathwani 3y ago
      Automated customer support usually has a normal user interface.
      - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
        I mean a window with fields and buttons. Why use hit and miss voice or text interfaces?
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    I have never successfully used automated voice support, even for getting information plainly available on the place's database. But I have tried to use it plenty of times.
    - rahimnathwani 3y ago
      automated voice support is a small subset of all automated customer support
      - marcosdumay 3y ago
        Well, the same happens for chat text interfaces, but I have used those much fewer times. People usually don't call the normal usable UI that solves problems "automated customer support", but if you refer to a navigable web site with real options to solving things, then well, you are offtopic but that one works.
tempodox 3y ago
How did this “improve” the “per-human output” of those who lost their jobs?
0xDEF 3y ago
>You'd think a place like HN would know that the only way the world has ever gotten better has been innovation Since 2013 this site has not been the optimistic hacker/startup forum Paul Graham envisioned in 2007. For a decade it has just been a higher quality version of r/technology but with the same reddit-tier doomposting.
- frontalier 3y ago
  What happened in 2013 for things to change?
rchaud 3y ago
And here I am thinking that a place like HN can appreciate that Econ 101 axioms don't translate perfectly to the real world. Moving call centre jobs to India and Philippines 20 years ago didn't exactly make those that lost their jobs more productive over the long run. The textbook says it should have, as American comparative advantage should be in higher value-added activities. The only problem is that the textbook also thinks re-skilling is free, everyone has alternate options for employment, and the labour market re-balances instantly.
krsdcbl 3y ago
it could be good for humanity IF the societal and economic model for basic survival would evolve in tandem. If we were moving towards UBI and made employment an optional thing then a world in which machines do most of the human work would be utopic indeed But reality has evolved differently, and after the need for manual labour and craftsmanship got decimated in the last century, now software is pushing into the fields where all the people needing jobs who aren't needed in production ended up. If we follow this train of thought, that we'd like to diminish the need for individual labour, without removing the individuals need to work as well, we'll just be enlarging the divide between affluence and utter poverty.
xjapappy3311 3y ago
I very much disagree with this idea of productivity being good in and of itself. I don't think that is controversial here. To the contrary, I think your view is controversial.

by cm2012 3y ago

RugnirViking 3y ago

in theory: customer support automation frees up support workers from focusing on repetetive customer issues to being able to devote more time to those difficult issues, providing better service at lower cost in practise: have you ever used any automated customer support for anything? it speaks for itself - it's literally worse than nothing.

cm2012 3y ago
Phone tree support is awful. AI of GPT4 level works because it is 100x better than that. And it will only get better in the next 5 years.
- tempodox 3y ago
  Promises, promises. They remind me of how cryptocurrencies were going to make everything better. “Just wait another 5 years and you'll see.”
avery17 3y ago
We've never had a gpt powered customer support though. It will be fine tuned on all of their recorded customer interactions ever. I could see this being way better than typical customer support where you have minimally trained, low wage employees who barely know how to use a computer just reading a script.
- krainboltgreene 3y ago
  [flagged]
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  You do understand that your comment is self nullifying right? If the majority of support people are "minimally trained, low wage employees who barely know how to use a computer just reading a script." then how exactly is the AI going to be better by using the recorded interactions of "low wage employees who barely know how to use a computer just reading a script"
- kec 3y ago
  The problem with customer support broadly isn’t having the agent understand you, it’s often about escalation until you get to an agent with the authority to handle your particular exceptional circumstance. There is no godly way any company will ever allow a chatbot, however capable, to go off script.
  - splatzone 3y ago
    No, but it could defer to a human if it’s unable to assist. If a chatbot can cover 80% of common support tasks, that vastly reduces the number of support staff but those who remain will be necessarily more skilled and have more authority
carlosjobim 3y ago
In practice I see a lot of businesses murdering their competition because they offer better customer service.
- TheCleric 3y ago
  I will pay up to 100% markup on things if: 1) I know there's a chance I'll need customer service with that thing 2) The company I'm buying from has actually good customer service.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  the biggest companies in the world (microsoft, google, netflix, amazon, facebook) have pretty awful customer service no imo. What kinds of companies are you talking about?
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    The world is so much more than these few tech giants where everybody at HN works.
    - raincole 3y ago
      Then give examples. You can't give 0 examples (while the comment you're replying to gave a list) and pretend you know better at the same time.
      - carlosjobim 3y ago
        For example Apple is famous for their good customer service, and it seems that worked out well for them.
rahimnathwani 3y ago
in practise: have you ever used any automated customer support for anything? I've used it to cancel orders, cancel subscriptions, change a broadband package, arrange a return/refund for faulty goods. Do you prefer to talk to a human for things like this?
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  No I prefer to use a normal user interface.
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    Automated customer support usually has a normal user interface.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
      I mean a window with fields and buttons. Why use hit and miss voice or text interfaces?
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  I have never successfully used automated voice support, even for getting information plainly available on the place's database. But I have tried to use it plenty of times.
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    automated voice support is a small subset of all automated customer support
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      Well, the same happens for chat text interfaces, but I have used those much fewer times. People usually don't call the normal usable UI that solves problems "automated customer support", but if you refer to a navigable web site with real options to solving things, then well, you are offtopic but that one works.

tempodox 3y ago

How did this “improve” the “per-human output” of those who lost their jobs?

0xDEF 3y ago

>You'd think a place like HN would know that the only way the world has ever gotten better has been innovation Since 2013 this site has not been the optimistic hacker/startup forum Paul Graham envisioned in 2007. For a decade it has just been a higher quality version of r/technology but with the same reddit-tier doomposting.

frontalier 3y ago
What happened in 2013 for things to change?

rchaud 3y ago

And here I am thinking that a place like HN can appreciate that Econ 101 axioms don't translate perfectly to the real world. Moving call centre jobs to India and Philippines 20 years ago didn't exactly make those that lost their jobs more productive over the long run. The textbook says it should have, as American comparative advantage should be in higher value-added activities. The only problem is that the textbook also thinks re-skilling is free, everyone has alternate options for employment, and the labour market re-balances instantly.

krsdcbl 3y ago

it could be good for humanity IF the societal and economic model for basic survival would evolve in tandem. If we were moving towards UBI and made employment an optional thing then a world in which machines do most of the human work would be utopic indeed But reality has evolved differently, and after the need for manual labour and craftsmanship got decimated in the last century, now software is pushing into the fields where all the people needing jobs who aren't needed in production ended up. If we follow this train of thought, that we'd like to diminish the need for individual labour, without removing the individuals need to work as well, we'll just be enlarging the divide between affluence and utter poverty.

xjapappy3311 3y ago

I very much disagree with this idea of productivity being good in and of itself. I don't think that is controversial here. To the contrary, I think your view is controversial.