6 ms·

If you work with AI, it's on you to refuse those jobs.

by lakomen 3y ago

photonbeam 3y ago
The people labeling data for $15/h are supposed to take the stand?
- davb 3y ago
  No, the people building the shite customer service chatbots that we all hate using should take a stand.
  - fullshark 3y ago
    It would be great if everyone made personal financial sacrifices for the things we thought were important right? The world would be a much better place in my estimation.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      Relying on individual developer's ethics is not going to work. "There's always someone willing to write the kill-bot software." I've in the past objected to (and refused to) develop ethically questionable software. It doesn't make a difference, because Bill, two desks down, is happy to write whatever software boss tells him to write.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    no the govt should just pay ubi because we're at the point of needing it. it'll only get worse. Businesses should automate so people are needed for less menial stuff and can just enjoy life and shit. Not far from now even intellectual jobs will be a.i. post scarcity star Trek civilization is very possible if we stop letting greed control us. disclaimer : I run an ai automation agency, and support the fight against poverty and for universal healthcare and stuff, but the faster we automate the faster the govt is forced to roll out solutions to fix the problems automation creates.
    - precompute 3y ago
      There will be a war, not UBI. UBI the way AI safety guys want it is never ever happening.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  They could maliciously label stuff. I'd imagine there is a way to bias a model against wealthy people.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  No one is talking about 15$ an hour data labeling and I’m pretty sure you know that. Being obtuse on purpose. If you’re actively replacing people’s jobs rather than helping people… well, you’ve got to look at yourself in the mirror every night.
  - muskmusk 3y ago
    What if replacing people's jobs is helping people? Milk men, computers (the people kind), horse carriage chauffeurs, people who light lamp posts (when they were oil based) we could go on here. You are clearly coming from empathic place, but I am not sure your premise is nuanced enough. Lots of progress has "victims" but that doesn't necessarily make progress had.
    - the_only_law 3y ago
      So this comes up all the time on these threads. The key bit of information I’m missing is where did those milk men, carriage chauffeurs, lamp lighters, whatever go and how did they get there after they were rendered useless . Did they retrain for new careers? If so how did they afford the education/retraining necessary. How did they pay their rent/mortgage/etc. in the time in between it took them to do that? What are the new jobs that are going to be created after sweeping automation in service and knowledge industries? I can think of a few jobs that probably won’t see automation anytime soon, but a lot of them are crap, or would result in a major quality of life degradation. I remember years before ChatGPT reading a lot of speculation on automation and what potential careers could survive in the face of some AI or robotics revolution and the jobs people considered safe from automation were things like caregiver. Just a quick google search shows the pay range for that job near starting at minimum wage. Genuine question, I really don’t know. Personally I’d love to leave the software industry, but I don’t have any realistic alternative. Rent keeps getting more expensive, never less and the jobs that pay enough to keep up require expensive credentials that don’t only require a lot of money, but a lot of time as well. I probably should read up on the history of this sort of stuff, but I take a look at places like the rust belt and it seems like the next career for a lot of the people in blue collar work that was moved or automated was “opioid addict”. Personally if I lose everything and am forced out on the street because I’m obsolete, I don’t give a flying shit what kind of new jobs there are, because they’ll be inaccessible to me.
muskmusk 3y ago
Why? Have you ever sat in a customer service chat with someone who wasn't very helpful and very slow sat the same time? There were probably handling several other chats at the same time. Why shouldn't we replace those interactions with an AI that is fast and infinitely patient and friendly? I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but I don't see how fighting technological progress that is net positive for almost everyone is productive here.
- atmosx 3y ago
  Because up to this point my experience with automated systems in banks, phone companies and web services companies has been awful even for trivial requests. Until shit improves, I will be bashing on those and prefer companies that allow me to get human interaction asap.
  - davb 3y ago
    Agreed. And chatbots also leave no room for discretionary exemptions. My headset microphone broke recently (after the warranty period) - emailing the company and asking if there was any way I could buy a new one netted me a free replacement and a nice note from a real person. I’m 100% convinced that a chatbot would have told me that based on the serial number my headset was out of warranty and ended the chat.
    - xp84 3y ago
      This is a shallow reading of what a “bot” could be capable of. Whoever is running customer service at that company has obviously decided that for certain situations people should be entitled to courtesy replacements. That decision was not contingent on who is taking the calls. When that person makes the decision to shift some/all workload to chatbots, he, or she could easily teach the bots what types of courtesy repairs or replacements should be considered, and the criteria they should meet. For instance, in your case, the rep probably knew that the part cost a couple bucks and the postage cost a buck or two, so a three dollar expense was deemed well worth it for goodwill. This is the kind of thing that a bot would be just as good at, and it’s also a thing that does not automatically happen just because the agents are humans. Some companies would fire the human rep for giving you that freebie. Honestly, the real reason why bots will be a good thing is that 3/4 of customer service calls come from confused people who really just need handholding. Setting the jobs issue aside, which is going to be a much bigger question across humanity, eventually I’d like to see bots handle that 3/4 of calls. Half the customer service staff could be retained and deployed exclusively to handle the issues actually worth their time.
Legend2440 3y ago
Fuck off. Automation is the only thing that increases real wealth over the long term. All jobs should be done by machines.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
WestCoastJustin 3y ago
No it's not. Everyone has obligations. You cannot un-invent this stuff. That's like trying to stop air planes, rockets, photography, combustion engine, calculators, the personal pc, etc. It's the next phase of technology and it will be developed regardless if you like it or not. It's here to stay and thinking otherwise does everyone a disservice. We should be trying to figure out how to leverage this and ride the next wave. Honestly, this might even make support much easier to interact with. If you can filter this stuff you could probably have a much better support experience. ChatGPT has proved this to be true. I cannot tell you how many times I've used support and the person is some entry level tech who has no idea.
- misnome 3y ago
  Wait, you actually think that AI will improve any of this?
  - WestCoastJustin 3y ago
    Have you been using ChatGPT to solve work problems? I have. It's amazing. This technology can do amazing things and companies should be using it to solve problems. Of course I think it can improve things. Think about what happens when companies start to build corporate LLM's trained on their docs, code, knowledge base, support tickets, etc. You're going to have super human support. Sure, this might assist the current staff but they are going to be so much better equipped to solve problems. Imagine for a second, that there is actually a LLM agent that can not only understand what you want but actually do things too. Like, why not have these systems reset passwords, check on the status of a refund, update a mailing address, change billing info, cancel your account, email me some documents, etc. This frees up people to actually work on more important things. The hardest part of all this pre-ChatGPT was understanding fully what the person wanted. That's petty much solved now. I think we're headed to a future where you'll actually want an LLM agent vs a human in that they will know everything and can solve your issue in seconds. It's like when you win the lottery and get the support person who's been at the company 15 years and knows everything in and out. That's what these LLM's can be.
    - 3y ago
bdcravens 3y ago
Many of us have built software that at some point has eliminated roles. It's turtles all the way down.

If you work with AI, it's on you to refuse those jobs.

photonbeam 3y ago

The people labeling data for $15/h are supposed to take the stand?

davb 3y ago
No, the people building the shite customer service chatbots that we all hate using should take a stand.
- fullshark 3y ago
  It would be great if everyone made personal financial sacrifices for the things we thought were important right? The world would be a much better place in my estimation.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Relying on individual developer's ethics is not going to work. "There's always someone willing to write the kill-bot software." I've in the past objected to (and refused to) develop ethically questionable software. It doesn't make a difference, because Bill, two desks down, is happy to write whatever software boss tells him to write.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  no the govt should just pay ubi because we're at the point of needing it. it'll only get worse. Businesses should automate so people are needed for less menial stuff and can just enjoy life and shit. Not far from now even intellectual jobs will be a.i. post scarcity star Trek civilization is very possible if we stop letting greed control us. disclaimer : I run an ai automation agency, and support the fight against poverty and for universal healthcare and stuff, but the faster we automate the faster the govt is forced to roll out solutions to fix the problems automation creates.
  - precompute 3y ago
    There will be a war, not UBI. UBI the way AI safety guys want it is never ever happening.
candiddevmike 3y ago
They could maliciously label stuff. I'd imagine there is a way to bias a model against wealthy people.
MarkMarine 3y ago
No one is talking about 15$ an hour data labeling and I’m pretty sure you know that. Being obtuse on purpose. If you’re actively replacing people’s jobs rather than helping people… well, you’ve got to look at yourself in the mirror every night.
- muskmusk 3y ago
  What if replacing people's jobs is helping people? Milk men, computers (the people kind), horse carriage chauffeurs, people who light lamp posts (when they were oil based) we could go on here. You are clearly coming from empathic place, but I am not sure your premise is nuanced enough. Lots of progress has "victims" but that doesn't necessarily make progress had.
  - the_only_law 3y ago
    So this comes up all the time on these threads. The key bit of information I’m missing is where did those milk men, carriage chauffeurs, lamp lighters, whatever go and how did they get there after they were rendered useless . Did they retrain for new careers? If so how did they afford the education/retraining necessary. How did they pay their rent/mortgage/etc. in the time in between it took them to do that? What are the new jobs that are going to be created after sweeping automation in service and knowledge industries? I can think of a few jobs that probably won’t see automation anytime soon, but a lot of them are crap, or would result in a major quality of life degradation. I remember years before ChatGPT reading a lot of speculation on automation and what potential careers could survive in the face of some AI or robotics revolution and the jobs people considered safe from automation were things like caregiver. Just a quick google search shows the pay range for that job near starting at minimum wage. Genuine question, I really don’t know. Personally I’d love to leave the software industry, but I don’t have any realistic alternative. Rent keeps getting more expensive, never less and the jobs that pay enough to keep up require expensive credentials that don’t only require a lot of money, but a lot of time as well. I probably should read up on the history of this sort of stuff, but I take a look at places like the rust belt and it seems like the next career for a lot of the people in blue collar work that was moved or automated was “opioid addict”. Personally if I lose everything and am forced out on the street because I’m obsolete, I don’t give a flying shit what kind of new jobs there are, because they’ll be inaccessible to me.

muskmusk 3y ago

Why? Have you ever sat in a customer service chat with someone who wasn't very helpful and very slow sat the same time? There were probably handling several other chats at the same time. Why shouldn't we replace those interactions with an AI that is fast and infinitely patient and friendly? I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but I don't see how fighting technological progress that is net positive for almost everyone is productive here.

atmosx 3y ago
Because up to this point my experience with automated systems in banks, phone companies and web services companies has been awful even for trivial requests. Until shit improves, I will be bashing on those and prefer companies that allow me to get human interaction asap.
- davb 3y ago
  Agreed. And chatbots also leave no room for discretionary exemptions. My headset microphone broke recently (after the warranty period) - emailing the company and asking if there was any way I could buy a new one netted me a free replacement and a nice note from a real person. I’m 100% convinced that a chatbot would have told me that based on the serial number my headset was out of warranty and ended the chat.
  - xp84 3y ago
    This is a shallow reading of what a “bot” could be capable of. Whoever is running customer service at that company has obviously decided that for certain situations people should be entitled to courtesy replacements. That decision was not contingent on who is taking the calls. When that person makes the decision to shift some/all workload to chatbots, he, or she could easily teach the bots what types of courtesy repairs or replacements should be considered, and the criteria they should meet. For instance, in your case, the rep probably knew that the part cost a couple bucks and the postage cost a buck or two, so a three dollar expense was deemed well worth it for goodwill. This is the kind of thing that a bot would be just as good at, and it’s also a thing that does not automatically happen just because the agents are humans. Some companies would fire the human rep for giving you that freebie. Honestly, the real reason why bots will be a good thing is that 3/4 of customer service calls come from confused people who really just need handholding. Setting the jobs issue aside, which is going to be a much bigger question across humanity, eventually I’d like to see bots handle that 3/4 of calls. Half the customer service staff could be retained and deployed exclusively to handle the issues actually worth their time.

Legend2440 3y ago

Fuck off. Automation is the only thing that increases real wealth over the long term. All jobs should be done by machines.

dang 3y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

WestCoastJustin 3y ago

No it's not. Everyone has obligations. You cannot un-invent this stuff. That's like trying to stop air planes, rockets, photography, combustion engine, calculators, the personal pc, etc. It's the next phase of technology and it will be developed regardless if you like it or not. It's here to stay and thinking otherwise does everyone a disservice. We should be trying to figure out how to leverage this and ride the next wave. Honestly, this might even make support much easier to interact with. If you can filter this stuff you could probably have a much better support experience. ChatGPT has proved this to be true. I cannot tell you how many times I've used support and the person is some entry level tech who has no idea.

misnome 3y ago
Wait, you actually think that AI will improve any of this?
- WestCoastJustin 3y ago
  Have you been using ChatGPT to solve work problems? I have. It's amazing. This technology can do amazing things and companies should be using it to solve problems. Of course I think it can improve things. Think about what happens when companies start to build corporate LLM's trained on their docs, code, knowledge base, support tickets, etc. You're going to have super human support. Sure, this might assist the current staff but they are going to be so much better equipped to solve problems. Imagine for a second, that there is actually a LLM agent that can not only understand what you want but actually do things too. Like, why not have these systems reset passwords, check on the status of a refund, update a mailing address, change billing info, cancel your account, email me some documents, etc. This frees up people to actually work on more important things. The hardest part of all this pre-ChatGPT was understanding fully what the person wanted. That's petty much solved now. I think we're headed to a future where you'll actually want an LLM agent vs a human in that they will know everything and can solve your issue in seconds. It's like when you win the lottery and get the support person who's been at the company 15 years and knows everything in and out. That's what these LLM's can be.
  - 3y ago

bdcravens 3y ago

Many of us have built software that at some point has eliminated roles. It's turtles all the way down.