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‘It’s Pseudoscience’: George Monbiot Blasts Regenerative Grazing In Heated Debate with Alan Savory https://plantbasednews.org/news/environment/george-monbiot-r

by myshpa 3y ago

‘It’s Pseudoscience’: George Monbiot Blasts Regenerative Grazing In Heated Debate with Alan Savory https://plantbasednews.org/news/environment/george-monbiot-regenerative-grazing-in-debate/ https://plantbasednews.org/news/environment/george-monbiot-r... Monbiot said that there was no empirical evidence that holistic management could mitigate the climate crisis. He went on to say that there is also no evidence it can offset the emissions it produces itself. On the contrary, he said that there’s “loads of contradictory evidence showing that grazing livestock systems are a major net loss of carbon into the atmosphere.” He highlighted that there had been several papers published recently that found removing animals from land allows more carbon to be sequestered. “Far from livestock grazing helping to mitigate climate breakdown, it actually accelerates climate breakdown,” he said. He pointed out that Savory’s claims had been debunked repeatedly, and added that there are “several words” that can be used to describe a claim for which there is no evidence or that has already been debunked. “One of them is pseudoscience,” he said. “One of them is mumbo jumbo… But perhaps the most appropriate one in this case is bullsh*t.” The debate: https://www.youtube.com/embed/rhwEaCmQ2XE https://www.youtube.com/embed/rhwEaCmQ2XE

c0brac0bra 3y ago
> “…the controversy over the effectiveness of HM can be traced back to the narrow terms in which HM was initially studied, at a time before social-ecological frameworks were developed. Studying a different agricultural paradigm was inhibited because—within an industrial farming paradigm—the only credible way to establish the value of an agricultural practice was to frame it in narrow, positivistic terms that removed the rancher as a thinking, adaptive agent, instead focusing solely on generic treatment efficacy for increasing forage, reducing desertification, and fixing carbon. […] A more holistic approach to co-producing scientific knowledge about HM, grounded in enhancing the capacity and agency of ranchers, should be seen as part of the system change that HM is attempting to leverage within agriculture.” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338777621_A_half_century_of_Holistic_Management_what_does_the_evidence_reveal https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338777621_A_half_ce... "Monbiot’s approach falls squarely into the “narrow industrial paradigm” Dr. Gosnell warns about. In his opening remarks, Monbiot insisted that carbon sequestration is simply not adequate, and to address climate change livestock advocates must demonstrate permanent carbon capture in the soil. This demand, however, is the perfect example of applying reductionist thinking to complex living systems." https://savory.global/statement-on-the-allan-savory-george-monbiot-debate-at-oxford/ https://savory.global/statement-on-the-allan-savory-george-m...
- dmbche 3y ago
  So Savory is unable to show any empirical way in which his method works to help the situation, and we should just take their word for it? And asking for evidence is reductionist?
carapace 3y ago
> L Hunter Lovins: George Monbiot’s recent criticism of Allan Savory’s theory that grazing livestock can reverse climate change ignores evidence that it’s already experiencing success > Claims that Savory’s approach has been discredited in the academic literature are based solely on two papers, one of which Monbiot cites. Both have been countered in academic and professional literature by papers which find that Savory’s method meets the claimed ecological, economic, and quality of life enhancing goals. It improves grass density, soil moisture, soil bulk density, standing crop biomass, and soil organic matter, an indicator of increases in soil carbon. https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/aug/19/grazing-livestock-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-savory https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/aug/19... My first question would be, "How many cattle does George Monbiot run"? I don't know anything about Allan Savory but I think it's likely he would know more about what's happening on his land than not, eh?
- imtringued 3y ago
  This is one of those things that always made me wonder. Theory is lagging behind practice by significant margins.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > he would know more about what's happening on his land than not If you want to make policies, we need scientific facts, experiments and measurements, not gut feelings. Otherwise you might end up killing tens of thousands of elephants and making things worse for decades (sorry, couldn't resist).
  - carapace 3y ago
    Yeah, I'll cop to it: Having only gotten an hour into the above-linked video, Alan Savory sounds kind of like a BS artist. Even if he's on to something with the emphasis on oxidation and desertification he still comes off poorly from a scientific POV, IMO. George Monbiot is a bit harsh but it's understandable, I'd be a bit mad myself in his shoes.
hombre_fatal 3y ago
Amazing how anyone could take him seriously after that debate. Yikes.

by myshpa 3y ago

c0brac0bra 3y ago

> “…the controversy over the effectiveness of HM can be traced back to the narrow terms in which HM was initially studied, at a time before social-ecological frameworks were developed. Studying a different agricultural paradigm was inhibited because—within an industrial farming paradigm—the only credible way to establish the value of an agricultural practice was to frame it in narrow, positivistic terms that removed the rancher as a thinking, adaptive agent, instead focusing solely on generic treatment efficacy for increasing forage, reducing desertification, and fixing carbon. […] A more holistic approach to co-producing scientific knowledge about HM, grounded in enhancing the capacity and agency of ranchers, should be seen as part of the system change that HM is attempting to leverage within agriculture.” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338777621_A_half_century_of_Holistic_Management_what_does_the_evidence_reveal https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338777621_A_half_ce... "Monbiot’s approach falls squarely into the “narrow industrial paradigm” Dr. Gosnell warns about. In his opening remarks, Monbiot insisted that carbon sequestration is simply not adequate, and to address climate change livestock advocates must demonstrate permanent carbon capture in the soil. This demand, however, is the perfect example of applying reductionist thinking to complex living systems." https://savory.global/statement-on-the-allan-savory-george-monbiot-debate-at-oxford/ https://savory.global/statement-on-the-allan-savory-george-m...

dmbche 3y ago
So Savory is unable to show any empirical way in which his method works to help the situation, and we should just take their word for it? And asking for evidence is reductionist?

carapace 3y ago

> L Hunter Lovins: George Monbiot’s recent criticism of Allan Savory’s theory that grazing livestock can reverse climate change ignores evidence that it’s already experiencing success > Claims that Savory’s approach has been discredited in the academic literature are based solely on two papers, one of which Monbiot cites. Both have been countered in academic and professional literature by papers which find that Savory’s method meets the claimed ecological, economic, and quality of life enhancing goals. It improves grass density, soil moisture, soil bulk density, standing crop biomass, and soil organic matter, an indicator of increases in soil carbon. https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/aug/19/grazing-livestock-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-savory https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/aug/19... My first question would be, "How many cattle does George Monbiot run"? I don't know anything about Allan Savory but I think it's likely he would know more about what's happening on his land than not, eh?

imtringued 3y ago
This is one of those things that always made me wonder. Theory is lagging behind practice by significant margins.
myshpa 3y ago
> he would know more about what's happening on his land than not If you want to make policies, we need scientific facts, experiments and measurements, not gut feelings. Otherwise you might end up killing tens of thousands of elephants and making things worse for decades (sorry, couldn't resist).
- carapace 3y ago
  Yeah, I'll cop to it: Having only gotten an hour into the above-linked video, Alan Savory sounds kind of like a BS artist. Even if he's on to something with the emphasis on oxidation and desertification he still comes off poorly from a scientific POV, IMO. George Monbiot is a bit harsh but it's understandable, I'd be a bit mad myself in his shoes.

hombre_fatal 3y ago

Amazing how anyone could take him seriously after that debate. Yikes.