3 ms·

Disagree- you should stay until they fire you, collecting salary in the meantime while not working (except to study for a new job). It's basically getting paid

by dekhn 3y ago

Disagree- you should stay until they fire you, collecting salary in the meantime while not working (except to study for a new job). It's basically getting paid not to work and they've already established you have until the end of the pip period.

JohnFen 3y ago
Well, I'll backtrack a little. It depends on what your priorities are, I suppose. I'd rather not have to explain being fired to a potential employer, and no salary would be worth staying where I'm not wanted. But others may legitimately have other priorities.
- dekhn 3y ago
  Firing versus resignation makes no real difference. It's easy to stay where you're not wanted- don't go to the office, don't answer email, don't do any real work. It's basically garden leave.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Firing versus resignation makes no real difference. In my experience, it makes a very large difference. > It's easy to stay where you're not wanted I think this depends on personality. It would be unbelievably difficult for me.
    - dekhn 3y ago
      At least in the circles I work in, nobody does reference checks and the previous employer is limited to verifying that you worked there (not the reason you were let go) and if somebody asked, I'd just say (which seems to be the case here) that the company was downsizing and I was one of the people selected for being laid off. For example, all those folks fired by Twitter... it would be silly to think that they weren't doing a good job, it was just a petulant move by Musk.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Well, I'm cursed by honesty. I'm not going to say anything untrue to a potential employer. It doesn't matter if anyone's checking or not. being laid off is a totally different thing from being fired, though. I assume people who are laid off won't say "I got fired", but "I got laid off". The two things have very different implications.
        dekhn 3y ago
        Absolutely honest is a curse, because it's self-defeating. I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical, but I don't think you are obliged to "tell the detailed truth" in a job interview. As a counterargument, a potential future coworker of mine had their offer rescinded after a background check determined they had worked for several companies known to steal IP, but left that off their resume. At least in my case, saying you got fired has zero implications. I've been close to being fired before, and the reasons were bogus- but there's no way to communicate that without a hiring agent being biased (incorrectly) against you. And I don't know that there truly is a difference, legally speaking, in terms of "being fired" or "laid off". You got terminated either way.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        You can be perfectly honest while still putting things in the best possible light, and without divulging everything (although lying by omission is still lying). > I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical I thought you were advocating being deceptive. My apologies. I try to be honest for ethical reasons, but being scrupulously honest (at least the best I can be as a fallible human being) has also served me very, very well in my career. I am quite certain I wouldn't have succeeded nearly to the degree I have if I weren't. So I recommend it very much. It has, at times, caused me some loss, but the gains I've got from the habit have more than offset those. > And I don't know that there truly is a difference, legally speaking, in terms of "being fired" or "laid off". I wasn't saying there's a legal difference, I was saying there's a difference in the impression it makes on people. If you've been laid off, it was probably because of business considerations outside of your control. If you were fired, it was probably because of some sort of misbehavior on your part. But if you say you were laid off when you were fired for cause, that's lying.
sys_64738 3y ago
Agree. Stop being productive until the lay you off. Then take the severance and once you've used that milk unemployment insurance for as long as you can. Start a new job fresh and relaxed.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  This is the way. You are not obligated to grind your life for an employer that treats you so badly. Milk them for money. Bonus points, use the time to make the manager's life miserable.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Good lord. There's no way I could behave this way. I guess I'm just not mercenary enough.
orangecat 3y ago
Right, especially if it's been 11 months and there's equity vesting at 12. And talk with a lawyer if the PIP period just so happens to end right before the vesting date.

by dekhn 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

Well, I'll backtrack a little. It depends on what your priorities are, I suppose. I'd rather not have to explain being fired to a potential employer, and no salary would be worth staying where I'm not wanted. But others may legitimately have other priorities.

dekhn 3y ago
Firing versus resignation makes no real difference. It's easy to stay where you're not wanted- don't go to the office, don't answer email, don't do any real work. It's basically garden leave.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Firing versus resignation makes no real difference. In my experience, it makes a very large difference. > It's easy to stay where you're not wanted I think this depends on personality. It would be unbelievably difficult for me.
  - dekhn 3y ago
    At least in the circles I work in, nobody does reference checks and the previous employer is limited to verifying that you worked there (not the reason you were let go) and if somebody asked, I'd just say (which seems to be the case here) that the company was downsizing and I was one of the people selected for being laid off. For example, all those folks fired by Twitter... it would be silly to think that they weren't doing a good job, it was just a petulant move by Musk.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Well, I'm cursed by honesty. I'm not going to say anything untrue to a potential employer. It doesn't matter if anyone's checking or not. being laid off is a totally different thing from being fired, though. I assume people who are laid off won't say "I got fired", but "I got laid off". The two things have very different implications.
      - dekhn 3y ago
        Absolutely honest is a curse, because it's self-defeating. I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical, but I don't think you are obliged to "tell the detailed truth" in a job interview. As a counterargument, a potential future coworker of mine had their offer rescinded after a background check determined they had worked for several companies known to steal IP, but left that off their resume. At least in my case, saying you got fired has zero implications. I've been close to being fired before, and the reasons were bogus- but there's no way to communicate that without a hiring agent being biased (incorrectly) against you. And I don't know that there truly is a difference, legally speaking, in terms of "being fired" or "laid off". You got terminated either way.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        You can be perfectly honest while still putting things in the best possible light, and without divulging everything (although lying by omission is still lying). > I am not advocating doing or saying anything unethical I thought you were advocating being deceptive. My apologies. I try to be honest for ethical reasons, but being scrupulously honest (at least the best I can be as a fallible human being) has also served me very, very well in my career. I am quite certain I wouldn't have succeeded nearly to the degree I have if I weren't. So I recommend it very much. It has, at times, caused me some loss, but the gains I've got from the habit have more than offset those. > And I don't know that there truly is a difference, legally speaking, in terms of "being fired" or "laid off". I wasn't saying there's a legal difference, I was saying there's a difference in the impression it makes on people. If you've been laid off, it was probably because of business considerations outside of your control. If you were fired, it was probably because of some sort of misbehavior on your part. But if you say you were laid off when you were fired for cause, that's lying.

sys_64738 3y ago

Agree. Stop being productive until the lay you off. Then take the severance and once you've used that milk unemployment insurance for as long as you can. Start a new job fresh and relaxed.

nine_zeros 3y ago
This is the way. You are not obligated to grind your life for an employer that treats you so badly. Milk them for money. Bonus points, use the time to make the manager's life miserable.
JohnFen 3y ago
Good lord. There's no way I could behave this way. I guess I'm just not mercenary enough.

orangecat 3y ago

Right, especially if it's been 11 months and there's equity vesting at 12. And talk with a lawyer if the PIP period just so happens to end right before the vesting date.