6 ms·

A company refusing to deliver products because they are gay, racist or black is wrong

by ipaddr 3y ago

Timon3 3y ago
One of those is not like the other. Can you explain why you see them as similar?
- JohnClark1337 3y ago
  [dead]
- Supermancho 3y ago
  These terms (gay, black, racist) are arbitrary classifications that are just broad enough to be useful, but are often attributed due to narrow characteristics or specific behaviors. eg "acting <label>"
  - Timon3 3y ago
    I can see how black is an arbitrary classification (since the borders are ill-defined and social in nature), but how does that hold for the other two?
    - forrest2 3y ago
      In some places, it's "gay" if two guys hold hands. On the racist bit: it can be hard to disambiguate why someone treats you in an unfavorable way -- it could be because they're actually racist or they could just be a pissy person who hates their job. Just because a person or group of people classifies you a certain way doesn't make it universally true.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        > In some places, it's "gay" if two guys hold hands. Sure, but that doesn't mean those two guys are gay. > On the racist bit: it can be hard to disambiguate why someone treats you in an unfavorable way -- it could be because they're actually racist or they could just be a pissy person who hates their job. Just because a person or group of people classifies you a certain way doesn't make it universally true. It might not be universally true, but it is subjectively true. That's the difference: even if you think you're not being racist, you might be racist from the PoV of someone you were racist towards.
        forrest2 3y ago
        Then it's an arguably arbitrary classification right? The borders seem potentially ill-defined and/or social in nature.
        Timon3 3y ago
        "Subjective" and "arbitrary" are not the same thing.
    - Supermancho 3y ago
      This discussion ostensibly is focused on labeling that may be inaccurate, so I am not considering self identification. Racist behavior is a judgement call to determine state of mind (behavioral patterns). Gay is a term that describes attraction to a similar gender, despite the overlap with other classifications (eg bi), which again is a judgement call about state of mind (behavioral patterns). Black is a label that also occurs due to behavior. Black is also a label based on a visual cue, which is arbitrary based on a pattern from personal experience. These terms are alike as labels, in these ways.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        > This discussion ostensibly is focused on labeling that may be inaccurate, so I am not considering self identification. You can't accurately talk about these topics without considering self identification. > Racist behavior is a judgement call to determine state of mind (behavioral patterns). That is one option, but it can also be a description of the results of someone's actions, without considering their state of mind. > Gay is a term that describes attraction to a similar gender, despite the overlap with other classifications (eg bi), which again is a judgement call about state of mind (behavioral patterns). Gay describes attraction only to the same gender, so the overlap with bi is only there if you ignore this. Since it's fundamentally self-identification I don't see how it's a judgement of state of mind. > Black is a label that also occurs due to behavior. Black is also a label based on a visual cue, which is arbitrary based on a pattern from personal experience. Black is a self-identification label which has overlap with visual cues, but isn't predicated upon them. It's a fundamentally different label from "racist".
        Supermancho 3y ago
        > You can't accurately talk about these topics To be fair, I'm talking about labeling, not the larger social structures groups inhabit. > That is one option, but it can also be a description of the results of someone's actions I don't believe pure actions are how humans derive intent. Actions are often used as an implication toward the state of mind. A child hitting another child is an action that does not connotate racist behavior under most conditions. Per your own statement: "even if you think you're not being racist, you might be racist from the PoV of someone you were racist towards" - the classification is arbitrary based on observation. > Since it's fundamentally self-identification That's an opinion. Given the existence of homosexual behavior in animals, I think there is a biological component that is separate from conscious decisioning. > it isn't predicated upon them I do not subscribe to the idea that "black" is a specific differentiation in humans. It's an arbitrary label based on observation.
circuit10 3y ago
Wouldn’t it be even more wrong to send drivers to someone who might racially abuse them? Of course that doesn’t excuse the smart home part and they should have done a better investigation
- sowbug 3y ago
  Thoughts are not crimes in free countries. What someone "might" do is irrelevant.
  - circuit10 3y ago
    Amazon thought that the person had already shouted a slur at the driver. They were wrong, but if they had been right blocking further deliveries to protect the drivers would have been reasonable (if it was just that)
    - Auracle 3y ago
      I disagree. It should take something like a police report to block further deliveries. Just taking one delivery driver’s word is ripe for abuse.
      - circuit10 3y ago
        So Amazon should continue sending people to someone who will racially abuse them just because the police didn’t catch it yet? (again, assuming that they had done the investigation properly which they didn’t in this case, which would involve collecting more evidence to back it up)
        Auracle 3y ago
        I said a police report, meaning the driver would report it to the police. Not that they'd catch them in the act.
- xdennis 3y ago
  > someone who might racially abuse them Agreed, but note that "abuse" is the operative word here. It's possible to be racist and not be outwardly hateful, and it's also possible to be non-racist and horribly abusive to staff.

A company refusing to deliver products because they are gay, racist or black is wrong

by ipaddr 3y ago

A company refusing to deliver products because they are gay, racist or black is wrong

Timon3 3y ago

One of those is not like the other. Can you explain why you see them as similar?

JohnClark1337 3y ago
[dead]
Supermancho 3y ago
These terms (gay, black, racist) are arbitrary classifications that are just broad enough to be useful, but are often attributed due to narrow characteristics or specific behaviors. eg "acting <label>"
- Timon3 3y ago
  I can see how black is an arbitrary classification (since the borders are ill-defined and social in nature), but how does that hold for the other two?
  - forrest2 3y ago
    In some places, it's "gay" if two guys hold hands. On the racist bit: it can be hard to disambiguate why someone treats you in an unfavorable way -- it could be because they're actually racist or they could just be a pissy person who hates their job. Just because a person or group of people classifies you a certain way doesn't make it universally true.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > In some places, it's "gay" if two guys hold hands. Sure, but that doesn't mean those two guys are gay. > On the racist bit: it can be hard to disambiguate why someone treats you in an unfavorable way -- it could be because they're actually racist or they could just be a pissy person who hates their job. Just because a person or group of people classifies you a certain way doesn't make it universally true. It might not be universally true, but it is subjectively true. That's the difference: even if you think you're not being racist, you might be racist from the PoV of someone you were racist towards.
      - forrest2 3y ago
        Then it's an arguably arbitrary classification right? The borders seem potentially ill-defined and/or social in nature.
        Timon3 3y ago
        "Subjective" and "arbitrary" are not the same thing.
  - Supermancho 3y ago
    This discussion ostensibly is focused on labeling that may be inaccurate, so I am not considering self identification. Racist behavior is a judgement call to determine state of mind (behavioral patterns). Gay is a term that describes attraction to a similar gender, despite the overlap with other classifications (eg bi), which again is a judgement call about state of mind (behavioral patterns). Black is a label that also occurs due to behavior. Black is also a label based on a visual cue, which is arbitrary based on a pattern from personal experience. These terms are alike as labels, in these ways.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > This discussion ostensibly is focused on labeling that may be inaccurate, so I am not considering self identification. You can't accurately talk about these topics without considering self identification. > Racist behavior is a judgement call to determine state of mind (behavioral patterns). That is one option, but it can also be a description of the results of someone's actions, without considering their state of mind. > Gay is a term that describes attraction to a similar gender, despite the overlap with other classifications (eg bi), which again is a judgement call about state of mind (behavioral patterns). Gay describes attraction only to the same gender, so the overlap with bi is only there if you ignore this. Since it's fundamentally self-identification I don't see how it's a judgement of state of mind. > Black is a label that also occurs due to behavior. Black is also a label based on a visual cue, which is arbitrary based on a pattern from personal experience. Black is a self-identification label which has overlap with visual cues, but isn't predicated upon them. It's a fundamentally different label from "racist".
      - Supermancho 3y ago
        > You can't accurately talk about these topics To be fair, I'm talking about labeling, not the larger social structures groups inhabit. > That is one option, but it can also be a description of the results of someone's actions I don't believe pure actions are how humans derive intent. Actions are often used as an implication toward the state of mind. A child hitting another child is an action that does not connotate racist behavior under most conditions. Per your own statement: "even if you think you're not being racist, you might be racist from the PoV of someone you were racist towards" - the classification is arbitrary based on observation. > Since it's fundamentally self-identification That's an opinion. Given the existence of homosexual behavior in animals, I think there is a biological component that is separate from conscious decisioning. > it isn't predicated upon them I do not subscribe to the idea that "black" is a specific differentiation in humans. It's an arbitrary label based on observation.

circuit10 3y ago

Wouldn’t it be even more wrong to send drivers to someone who might racially abuse them? Of course that doesn’t excuse the smart home part and they should have done a better investigation

sowbug 3y ago
Thoughts are not crimes in free countries. What someone "might" do is irrelevant.
- circuit10 3y ago
  Amazon thought that the person had already shouted a slur at the driver. They were wrong, but if they had been right blocking further deliveries to protect the drivers would have been reasonable (if it was just that)
  - Auracle 3y ago
    I disagree. It should take something like a police report to block further deliveries. Just taking one delivery driver’s word is ripe for abuse.
    - circuit10 3y ago
      So Amazon should continue sending people to someone who will racially abuse them just because the police didn’t catch it yet? (again, assuming that they had done the investigation properly which they didn’t in this case, which would involve collecting more evidence to back it up)
      - Auracle 3y ago
        I said a police report, meaning the driver would report it to the police. Not that they'd catch them in the act.
xdennis 3y ago
> someone who might racially abuse them Agreed, but note that "abuse" is the operative word here. It's possible to be racist and not be outwardly hateful, and it's also possible to be non-racist and horribly abusive to staff.