4 ms·

It takes heaps of irrefutable facts and very strong moral national character (for the lack of better words) to admit fucking up big time, apologizing for it and

It takes heaps of irrefutable facts and very strong moral national character (for the lack of better words) to admit fucking up big time, apologizing for it and making yourself a better version thanx to such experience. I'd claim in modern history, on large enough scale only Germany went properly through this, and is still source of a lot of guilt in their population. Allied fire bombings of whole cities, turks doing Armenian genocide, Japanese atrocities in China, russians with whatever they did anywhere in past 50 years etc... I see rather ignorance and lies and desperate attempts to look the other way rather than anything else.

omgmajk 3y ago
> Japanese atrocities in China Don't forget Chinese atrocities in China.
brandall10 3y ago
I just left Berlin this afternoon after spending a week here. I knew this aspect would be present, but I was surprised how present it is. My impression is the culture here prides itself on being extremely socially and ecologically progressive as a way of atonement. Grafitti/street art seems to be encouraged as an emotional and creative outlet. Plenty of world class free museums, and most others are rather cheap (8-10 euros) compared to other locations in Europe.
- solarkraft 3y ago
  Berlin is special. Germany as a whole is much more conservative. "Never again" is still a big part of the culture. The rise of the Nazis is a common theme at school, not only in history lessons, but also others ("analyze this speech's rhetoric"). I suppose as a German it feels natural to be able to criticize what the people in your country have done before yourself and some patterns are fairly easy to spot. It's sometimes hard to understand why it can be so difficult for others.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    And yet... fascism is on the rise again all over Europe. Amazing really, when you think of it, it's 100% known what it leads to and yet there are people that refuse to learn these lessons.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      I am affraid it is worse: those people actually want all those things, the bad effects are not part of the risks coming with fascism, they are part of the promise. Sad indeed...
    - brandall10 3y ago
      Yeah, it's amazing what people will buy when they feel their circumstances are poor. I feel like Berlin putting it very in front of your face means the youth will never forget or misinterpret what happened. My partner on this trip is a Brazilian (from Sao Paolo) who has been living in Paris for the past decade. She touched on the fairly complex history of that country and how someone like Bolsonaro could be popular. The country is large with very different regions, each with their own capital, etc, which leads to a sort of isolation in ways. Yet their supreme court was still able to see fit to punish claims of election fraud that the US is incapable of doing.
  - alchemist1e9 3y ago
    It’s very worrying that in the US criticism of the government is now being actively censored and suppressed. Is it true that US whistleblowers should consider getting to Berlin before leaking their information as German laws on speech would help protect them? For example wouldn’t Assange and Snowden have been much better off if they had?
    - lazide 3y ago
      Being in Germany wouldn’t have saved them, and it’s fantasy to think they would have. They’d have to have been in Venezuela, Iran, NK, China, or as worked for Snowden, Russia. Anti-whistleblower/leaker sentiment has always been a strong force in every gov’t - only being physically in the jurisdiction of the ‘enemy’ is decent protection, and even then assassinations happen.

omgmajk 3y ago

> Japanese atrocities in China Don't forget Chinese atrocities in China.

brandall10 3y ago

I just left Berlin this afternoon after spending a week here. I knew this aspect would be present, but I was surprised how present it is. My impression is the culture here prides itself on being extremely socially and ecologically progressive as a way of atonement. Grafitti/street art seems to be encouraged as an emotional and creative outlet. Plenty of world class free museums, and most others are rather cheap (8-10 euros) compared to other locations in Europe.

solarkraft 3y ago
Berlin is special. Germany as a whole is much more conservative. "Never again" is still a big part of the culture. The rise of the Nazis is a common theme at school, not only in history lessons, but also others ("analyze this speech's rhetoric"). I suppose as a German it feels natural to be able to criticize what the people in your country have done before yourself and some patterns are fairly easy to spot. It's sometimes hard to understand why it can be so difficult for others.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  And yet... fascism is on the rise again all over Europe. Amazing really, when you think of it, it's 100% known what it leads to and yet there are people that refuse to learn these lessons.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    I am affraid it is worse: those people actually want all those things, the bad effects are not part of the risks coming with fascism, they are part of the promise. Sad indeed...
  - brandall10 3y ago
    Yeah, it's amazing what people will buy when they feel their circumstances are poor. I feel like Berlin putting it very in front of your face means the youth will never forget or misinterpret what happened. My partner on this trip is a Brazilian (from Sao Paolo) who has been living in Paris for the past decade. She touched on the fairly complex history of that country and how someone like Bolsonaro could be popular. The country is large with very different regions, each with their own capital, etc, which leads to a sort of isolation in ways. Yet their supreme court was still able to see fit to punish claims of election fraud that the US is incapable of doing.
- alchemist1e9 3y ago
  It’s very worrying that in the US criticism of the government is now being actively censored and suppressed. Is it true that US whistleblowers should consider getting to Berlin before leaking their information as German laws on speech would help protect them? For example wouldn’t Assange and Snowden have been much better off if they had?
  - lazide 3y ago
    Being in Germany wouldn’t have saved them, and it’s fantasy to think they would have. They’d have to have been in Venezuela, Iran, NK, China, or as worked for Snowden, Russia. Anti-whistleblower/leaker sentiment has always been a strong force in every gov’t - only being physically in the jurisdiction of the ‘enemy’ is decent protection, and even then assassinations happen.