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I've always wondered how this could work in practice. It's hard enough to convince your average American fox news fan that putin might not be a great guy, how e

I've always wondered how this could work in practice. It's hard enough to convince your average American fox news fan that putin might not be a great guy, how exactly are you going to convince a Russian?

tuukkah 3y ago
Not all Russians are stupid: many (most?) understand that they are being lied to and some (especially the younger generations) are interested in reading independent sources. I think these services are for those people -- facts can be highly valuable (and worth jumping through the necessary hoops).
- cubefox 3y ago
  N=1, but ... a few months before Russia invaded Ukraine, I talked to a Russian girl at a party in Germany. She said she "voted with her feet" when she decided to move out of Russia. So she wasn't very Russia friendly. Moreover, young women are probably the most progressive demographic full-stop. Yet when I asked her about Ukraine, she repeated all the standard Russian government propaganda about an alleged NATO threat and stated that she was "neutral" on whether Russia should invade Ukraine. I was pretty shocked. If even young female expats think this way, what do older Russian men think? Perhaps she was a rare outlier. Or perhaps it's not an accident that so many Russians appear to continue to vote for Putin's party.
  - xwdv 3y ago
    Is it possible Ukraine isn’t entirely innocent? Sure we assume they are from our point of view, but that’s the nature of propaganda, how do you really know what is reality?
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      Not innocent of what!? Even Putin justifies the invasion by saying Ukrainian people want to be part of Russia. That is not justification for invading and killing them. Being skeptical of what you hear is one thing, abandoning reality to say “who knows, anything is possible” is another.
      - xwdv 3y ago
        If you can’t prove things are impossible, then technically anything is possible.
        themitigating 3y ago
        If the probability of something is below a certain amount it should be treated as if it is impossible.
        staunton 3y ago
        At which point you can stop using the words "prove" and "possible".
    - tuukkah 3y ago
      You are speaking as if truth wasn't a thing... Also, there's nothing Ukraine could have done that would have made Russia's actions justified. Finally, when you follow the Russian statements for a while, you notice that they are self-contradictory. This lets you disregard their arguments as pure lies - the truth is not self-contradictory.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      [dead]
  - teekert 3y ago
    Is it indeed possible that the whole thing started in 2014 with whole "f the EU" shenanigans and "Biden being in on it"? And that that truth is suppressed here, and perhaps amplified over there? I thought this was an insightful podcast: [0] [0] https://podverse.fm/episode/ds2T0EjC8 https://podverse.fm/episode/ds2T0EjC8
    - myko 3y ago
      The link says: > The United States is responsible for the war in Ukraine, and that's not Putin's propaganda; it's just history Which is obviously incorrect on its face, Putin claimed to invade Ukraine because Ukraine wanted to be liberated and is part of the Russian Empire, wrongly let go of by prior rulers of Russia. It is disgusting propaganda to lie and say the US or the west caused this war - Putin caused it, fullstop, that's it.
      - teekert 3y ago
        If you read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", you'll see it's straight from the US playbook. Sure, Putin started the war, and that was the whole point, poke and prod until they start a war. Lend money until they can't repay. Keep a country rubbelized so they won't unite against resource extraction. Replace democratically elected leaders with religious nutcases so you can have your way. It's the way of the empire. Ask Iranians, ask Panamanians, ask the people of East Timor.
  - tejohnso 3y ago
    I don't think you have to listen to Russian government propaganda to understand the NATO threat if you have any cognitive empathy whatsoever. Angela Merkel is on record saying that the negotiated Minsk peace agreement was a complete sham. "The US and its allies “simulated supporting the UN Security Council resolution” which endorsed the roadmap to peace while pumping weapons into Ukraine and “ignored all crimes committed by the Kiev regime … for the sake of a decisive strike against Russia,” she explained in a social media post on Thursday [1]. Also John Mearsheimer, an American, laid out the case for Ukraine as a massive NATO threat in a public talk many years ago. Available on youtube. Would the United States welcome Chinese and Russian nuclear capable installations in Mexico or Cuba? How are you attempting to balance your point of view against the intense western government propaganda that you're exposed to? [1]: https://www.globalresearch.ca/merkel-acknowledges-that-2014-minsk-accord-deception/5801808 https://www.globalresearch.ca/merkel-acknowledges-that-2014-...
    - slow_typist 3y ago
      No, Merkel didn’t say that. Zakharova did.
      - cf141q5325 3y ago
        She mentioned it in an interview with the ZEIT recently. Here the article debating the interpretation of what she said. https://web.archive.org/web/20230103062022/https://www.zeit.de/2022/53/angela-merkel-russland-krieg-wladimir-putin https://web.archive.org/web/20230103062022/https://www.zeit.... > Merkel sagte der ZEIT: "Das Minsker Abkommen 2014 war der Versuch, der Ukraine Zeit zu geben. Sie hat diese Zeit auch genutzt, um stärker zu werden, wie man heute sieht."
        phs318u 3y ago
        To me it implies that Russian designs on Ukraine were understood quite some time ago, and the "buying time" to make Ukraine "stronger" was the counter to Russia's intention. That supposition about Russia's intentions has since been proven correct. Russia may feel aggrieved that their goal of re-subsuming the independent former Soviet republics has been somewhat thwarted, but clearly that has been and still is their policy.
  - Barrin92 3y ago
    People are sensitive when it comes to the sovereignty of their home countries even if they're not particularly fond of their governments. When I lived in China a lot of young, laissez-faire, liberal minded people who were critical of the increasingly repressive culture were nonetheless allergic to any kind of foreign encroachment. The attitude is largely that, "our government may suck, but it is ours", and when foreign countries are perceived as strangling their development, you'll turn even the most raging regime critic into a reluctant supporter. And of course they don't view NATO or the rules based order or what have you as some benevolent thing, but tools of power.
    - _hcuq 3y ago
      Yes, but nobody has violated Russian sovereignty.
      - cubefox 3y ago
        The idea anyone would attack Russia, with its countless nuclear weapons, is silly. Ukraine obviously wanted to join NATO to defend against Russia, not to attack it.
  - dsign 3y ago
    > Yet when I asked her about Ukraine, she repeated all the standard Russian government propaganda about an alleged NATO threat and stated that she was "neutral" on whether Russia should invade Ukraine. For a recent emigre from a regime like Russia or Cuba, the mindset often is "things are real bad in the homeland in matters that I can see with my own eyes, but on what I can not see, I tend to believe the official narrative, because it's the only one I had access to." It can take years for a person to do all the necessary reading and research to adjust their worldview.
    - Cpoll 3y ago
      Sounds like a good example of Gell-Mann Amnesia.
nonethewiser 3y ago
> how exactly are you going to convince a Russian? That is flaming you for not rotating fast enough. To be clear this is commentary on your average counter strike player, not necessarily Russian cs players.
justinhj 3y ago
I’ve never seen a pro Putin fox story or heard a fox fan praise him.
- justinhj 3y ago
  downvote with dispute says it all
hkon 3y ago
Thw difference between Russians and Westerners is that Russians know they are subjected to propaganda
- exclusiv 3y ago
  Do they though? Because we haven't seen a course correction yet. How long do they need?
  - hkon 3y ago
    What do you mean? Even if you know about propaganda you cant necessarily do something about it.
    - exclusiv 3y ago
      Yes you can. Most countries correct course at some point, whether via election, protest, upheaval, civil war. etc. The younger generation understands. But I don't buy that Russians, esp the older, simply know the level of control and propaganda that they've been subjected to over the years. Otherwise they would have done something about it by now.
      - hkon 3y ago
        You are casually suggesting people sacrifice themselves for what exactly?
        exclusiv 3y ago
        I'm casually suggesting what pretty much every country has done at some point that has been oppressed to unlock a better future for themselves and their posterity. They could start with, I dunno, maybe not voting disproportionately for more of the same? How is this hard if, as you suggested, they are aware of the propaganda lol? I don't buy it.
        3y ago
raxxorraxor 3y ago
This sentence is so weird since a few years ago this would be entirely the other way around.

tuukkah 3y ago

Not all Russians are stupid: many (most?) understand that they are being lied to and some (especially the younger generations) are interested in reading independent sources. I think these services are for those people -- facts can be highly valuable (and worth jumping through the necessary hoops).

cubefox 3y ago
N=1, but ... a few months before Russia invaded Ukraine, I talked to a Russian girl at a party in Germany. She said she "voted with her feet" when she decided to move out of Russia. So she wasn't very Russia friendly. Moreover, young women are probably the most progressive demographic full-stop. Yet when I asked her about Ukraine, she repeated all the standard Russian government propaganda about an alleged NATO threat and stated that she was "neutral" on whether Russia should invade Ukraine. I was pretty shocked. If even young female expats think this way, what do older Russian men think? Perhaps she was a rare outlier. Or perhaps it's not an accident that so many Russians appear to continue to vote for Putin's party.
- xwdv 3y ago
  Is it possible Ukraine isn’t entirely innocent? Sure we assume they are from our point of view, but that’s the nature of propaganda, how do you really know what is reality?
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    Not innocent of what!? Even Putin justifies the invasion by saying Ukrainian people want to be part of Russia. That is not justification for invading and killing them. Being skeptical of what you hear is one thing, abandoning reality to say “who knows, anything is possible” is another.
    - xwdv 3y ago
      If you can’t prove things are impossible, then technically anything is possible.
      - themitigating 3y ago
        If the probability of something is below a certain amount it should be treated as if it is impossible.
      - staunton 3y ago
        At which point you can stop using the words "prove" and "possible".
  - tuukkah 3y ago
    You are speaking as if truth wasn't a thing... Also, there's nothing Ukraine could have done that would have made Russia's actions justified. Finally, when you follow the Russian statements for a while, you notice that they are self-contradictory. This lets you disregard their arguments as pure lies - the truth is not self-contradictory.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    [dead]
- teekert 3y ago
  Is it indeed possible that the whole thing started in 2014 with whole "f the EU" shenanigans and "Biden being in on it"? And that that truth is suppressed here, and perhaps amplified over there? I thought this was an insightful podcast: [0] [0] https://podverse.fm/episode/ds2T0EjC8 https://podverse.fm/episode/ds2T0EjC8
  - myko 3y ago
    The link says: > The United States is responsible for the war in Ukraine, and that's not Putin's propaganda; it's just history Which is obviously incorrect on its face, Putin claimed to invade Ukraine because Ukraine wanted to be liberated and is part of the Russian Empire, wrongly let go of by prior rulers of Russia. It is disgusting propaganda to lie and say the US or the west caused this war - Putin caused it, fullstop, that's it.
    - teekert 3y ago
      If you read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", you'll see it's straight from the US playbook. Sure, Putin started the war, and that was the whole point, poke and prod until they start a war. Lend money until they can't repay. Keep a country rubbelized so they won't unite against resource extraction. Replace democratically elected leaders with religious nutcases so you can have your way. It's the way of the empire. Ask Iranians, ask Panamanians, ask the people of East Timor.
- tejohnso 3y ago
  I don't think you have to listen to Russian government propaganda to understand the NATO threat if you have any cognitive empathy whatsoever. Angela Merkel is on record saying that the negotiated Minsk peace agreement was a complete sham. "The US and its allies “simulated supporting the UN Security Council resolution” which endorsed the roadmap to peace while pumping weapons into Ukraine and “ignored all crimes committed by the Kiev regime … for the sake of a decisive strike against Russia,” she explained in a social media post on Thursday [1]. Also John Mearsheimer, an American, laid out the case for Ukraine as a massive NATO threat in a public talk many years ago. Available on youtube. Would the United States welcome Chinese and Russian nuclear capable installations in Mexico or Cuba? How are you attempting to balance your point of view against the intense western government propaganda that you're exposed to? [1]: https://www.globalresearch.ca/merkel-acknowledges-that-2014-minsk-accord-deception/5801808 https://www.globalresearch.ca/merkel-acknowledges-that-2014-...
  - slow_typist 3y ago
    No, Merkel didn’t say that. Zakharova did.
    - cf141q5325 3y ago
      She mentioned it in an interview with the ZEIT recently. Here the article debating the interpretation of what she said. https://web.archive.org/web/20230103062022/https://www.zeit.de/2022/53/angela-merkel-russland-krieg-wladimir-putin https://web.archive.org/web/20230103062022/https://www.zeit.... > Merkel sagte der ZEIT: "Das Minsker Abkommen 2014 war der Versuch, der Ukraine Zeit zu geben. Sie hat diese Zeit auch genutzt, um stärker zu werden, wie man heute sieht."
      - phs318u 3y ago
        To me it implies that Russian designs on Ukraine were understood quite some time ago, and the "buying time" to make Ukraine "stronger" was the counter to Russia's intention. That supposition about Russia's intentions has since been proven correct. Russia may feel aggrieved that their goal of re-subsuming the independent former Soviet republics has been somewhat thwarted, but clearly that has been and still is their policy.
- Barrin92 3y ago
  People are sensitive when it comes to the sovereignty of their home countries even if they're not particularly fond of their governments. When I lived in China a lot of young, laissez-faire, liberal minded people who were critical of the increasingly repressive culture were nonetheless allergic to any kind of foreign encroachment. The attitude is largely that, "our government may suck, but it is ours", and when foreign countries are perceived as strangling their development, you'll turn even the most raging regime critic into a reluctant supporter. And of course they don't view NATO or the rules based order or what have you as some benevolent thing, but tools of power.
  - _hcuq 3y ago
    Yes, but nobody has violated Russian sovereignty.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      The idea anyone would attack Russia, with its countless nuclear weapons, is silly. Ukraine obviously wanted to join NATO to defend against Russia, not to attack it.
- dsign 3y ago
  > Yet when I asked her about Ukraine, she repeated all the standard Russian government propaganda about an alleged NATO threat and stated that she was "neutral" on whether Russia should invade Ukraine. For a recent emigre from a regime like Russia or Cuba, the mindset often is "things are real bad in the homeland in matters that I can see with my own eyes, but on what I can not see, I tend to believe the official narrative, because it's the only one I had access to." It can take years for a person to do all the necessary reading and research to adjust their worldview.
  - Cpoll 3y ago
    Sounds like a good example of Gell-Mann Amnesia.

nonethewiser 3y ago

> how exactly are you going to convince a Russian? That is flaming you for not rotating fast enough. To be clear this is commentary on your average counter strike player, not necessarily Russian cs players.

justinhj 3y ago

I’ve never seen a pro Putin fox story or heard a fox fan praise him.

justinhj 3y ago
downvote with dispute says it all

hkon 3y ago

Thw difference between Russians and Westerners is that Russians know they are subjected to propaganda

exclusiv 3y ago
Do they though? Because we haven't seen a course correction yet. How long do they need?
- hkon 3y ago
  What do you mean? Even if you know about propaganda you cant necessarily do something about it.
  - exclusiv 3y ago
    Yes you can. Most countries correct course at some point, whether via election, protest, upheaval, civil war. etc. The younger generation understands. But I don't buy that Russians, esp the older, simply know the level of control and propaganda that they've been subjected to over the years. Otherwise they would have done something about it by now.
    - hkon 3y ago
      You are casually suggesting people sacrifice themselves for what exactly?
      - exclusiv 3y ago
        I'm casually suggesting what pretty much every country has done at some point that has been oppressed to unlock a better future for themselves and their posterity. They could start with, I dunno, maybe not voting disproportionately for more of the same? How is this hard if, as you suggested, they are aware of the propaganda lol? I don't buy it.
        3y ago

raxxorraxor 3y ago

This sentence is so weird since a few years ago this would be entirely the other way around.