9 ms·

Banned journalism housed in virtual Minecraft architecture (2022)

193 points by cratermoon 3y ago

LoganDark 3y ago
the sheer overuse of scare-quotes in this article turned me away from it almost immediately. do you really have to quote the word 'items' as if it's that much of a foreign, unprecedented concept
- verall 3y ago
  It's just distinguishing what is in-game for legacy audiences it's not scaring anybody
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    > it's not scaring anybody i don't use the term 'scare-quotes' to mean "to scare people", but rather because that's actually what the practice is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes
    - verall 3y ago
      I know what a scare quote is, and their implication could be to "scare" like calling someone "an artist" or saying that you made a "good comment". But the article isn't trying to imply skepticism or disclaim particular words, it's just trying to distinguish what is in-game for people who don't know what minecraft is.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        maybe it was slightly too subtle for me to have used single quotes in my comment and not pointed it out. in this case they would have been more appropriate it's entirely likely this was just a formatting mistake, but it still feels "off" enough for me to get uncomfortable and stop reading
        pessimizer 3y ago
        If you're using the word 'item' to describe a data structure in minecraft, you're not using it in the traditional way, you're using it in a technical way.
        LoganDark 3y ago
        i think it's perfectly reasonable for them to have used double-quotes for 'chests' because that is a very gaming-specific item (perhaps not minecraft-specific- looks at every dungeon crawler). however, something being a data structure or not doesn't really matter when 'items' means exactly what you would expect it to mean within minecraft, especially when said item is a book!
- hot_gril 3y ago
  People who don't play video games don't know what an item is in a video game.
  - londonReed 3y ago
    Really? I have a hard time believing that. The concept has been around since the 80's, if not before then. Should we be putting scare quotes around the word "Mouse" when we use it to refer to a computer mouse because it's not a literal animal mouse?
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      There are probably way more people familiar with computer mice than video games.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    that's like saying people who don't use computers won't understand that text is in a computer even though it has the same meaning as, say, text in a book
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Item in plain English means basically anything that can be counted, usually something small. Item in a video game usually means something players can pick up, maybe use, and drop, as opposed to something that's part of the environment. Item in Minecraft has a technical meaning, basically anything that can go into a hopper inventory, as opposed to particles, blocks, mobs, stuck arrows, other entities...
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        saying there is an item called a book in minecraft will not go over the average person's head
tivert 3y ago
> “The criteria for inclusion is handled by Reporters Without Borders, which ensures the library’s content is accurate, truthful, and sensitive,” reports Cian Mahar. Whenever I see a project like this, I have to ask: what kinds of true things are censored from the "uncensored library"? > But even where almost all media is blocked or controlled, the world’s most successful computer game is still accessible. Reporters Without Borders (RSF) uses this loophole to bypass internet censorship to bring back the truth – within Minecraft.” For how long? They used to say the same thing about the internet itself.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  At least now a country has to ban Minecraft to ban those books, or force MC to drop its encryption and invent a very obscure Minecraft packet inspection technique that players will more easily circumvent some other way.
- trelane 3y ago
  > Whenever I see a project like this, I have to ask: what kinds of true things are censored from the "uncensored library"? I was curious about this as well. The "criteria for inclusion" link takes you to a page on "weeding:" https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/weeding-is-fundamental/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/weeding-is-fundamenta... It describes the process (a few different ones, MUSTY, green/yellow/red) but not a lot of concrete facts (what books were "weeded" or which books were suggested but not purchased.)
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    There isn't going to be an exact process. The answer is, they say so, and someone else can make his own library if he doesn't like their choices.
- gorwell 3y ago
  "sensitive" as a criteria is a dead giveaway they are censors advertising themselves as the opposite. It's an evolved brand of censor; like some types of predator snakes that have evolved to mimic its harmless prey.
mcpackieh 3y ago
I visited this server a year or two ago and tbqh I think it's more about the library building (a very large and impressive build) then the contents of the library. The library building so so huge you can spend several minutes walking from one book to the other. If it were just about distributing the books through minecraft they could have created a much more compact library where all the books are within convenient reaching distance. Basically it's more of an art installation than it is a serious censorship circumvention tool. Still neat for what it is I guess.
- last_responder 3y ago
  >Basically it's more of an art installation than it is a serious censorship circumvention tool. Still neat for what it is I guess. Why cant it be both?
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Reminds me of the UC Berkeley Minecraft server, where they recreated the entire campus during the boredom of 2020. Maybe they could put real books inside Main Stacks.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
starkparker 3y ago
(2022) I remember when publicity stunts like this would ship in Second Life. The more things change...
dmbche 3y ago
I'm reminded of the people that were chatting in MW2 games by writing on the walls with bullet holes!
- itronitron 3y ago
  It's common for players on minecraft to take turns placing signs next to each other if they want to have a 'private' conversation with another player (which is handy in some competitive game modes), and I've also seen muted players name their pets in-game with messages that they want to communicate.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    > messages that they want to communicate Very nice way of putting it.
  - slow_typist 3y ago
    The kids are doing a lot of impressive stuff. When building together, the owner of the plot leads other builders by literally showing them what and how to build, it’s way quicker than chat, they are very disciplined, repeat the building steps, then stop and watch the owner in order to see if they did it right. Sometimes they need a few iterations but it’s still quicker than chat.
constantcrying 3y ago
ISIS and neo-nazis can host websites on the public internet. What possible reason is there to host it on minecraft instead of as html on the internet? Or on tor if need be? This seems really, really stupid. (Except for the actual Minecraft building, which seems quite nice)
- oersted 3y ago
  It seems to me more of an artistic/social statement rather than an actual practical resource. And it is an effective one: interesting enough to become somewhat viral, and the architecture itself conveys a strong message.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Cause random kids and other people have an easier and more fun time hosting Minecraft servers. Makes it go viral more easily and also adds one more way to access it.
- wongarsu 3y ago
  Authoritarian regimes have lots of infrastructure in place to censor http(s) traffic, and at least China is getting quite good at restricting tor usage. Meanwhile they probably don't have much in place to ban specific minecraft servers, and their deep packet inspection might not cover Minecraft books. There's value in using obscure technologies.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    Highly relevant hackernews comment from 2020: > It's worth noting that this project will likely not benefit the people of China. A somewhat obscure fact is that China has its own edition of Minecraft which cannot connect to servers of the mainstream edition. https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_China https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_China https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22569178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22569178
    - debugnik 3y ago
tuukkah 3y ago
In the context of Russian war in Ukraine: > “As the Russian government has de facto suppressed its national press and blocked access to foreign media, Counter-Strike has remained as one of the rare channels that allows us to communicate independent information to Russians about real events from the war” https://www.pcgamesn.com/counter-strike-global-offensive/csgo-map-russia-ukraine https://www.pcgamesn.com/counter-strike-global-offensive/csg...
- sebzim4500 3y ago
  I've always wondered how this could work in practice. It's hard enough to convince your average American fox news fan that putin might not be a great guy, how exactly are you going to convince a Russian?
  - tuukkah 3y ago
    Not all Russians are stupid: many (most?) understand that they are being lied to and some (especially the younger generations) are interested in reading independent sources. I think these services are for those people -- facts can be highly valuable (and worth jumping through the necessary hoops).
    - cubefox 3y ago
      N=1, but ... a few months before Russia invaded Ukraine, I talked to a Russian girl at a party in Germany. She said she "voted with her feet" when she decided to move out of Russia. So she wasn't very Russia friendly. Moreover, young women are probably the most progressive demographic full-stop. Yet when I asked her about Ukraine, she repeated all the standard Russian government propaganda about an alleged NATO threat and stated that she was "neutral" on whether Russia should invade Ukraine. I was pretty shocked. If even young female expats think this way, what do older Russian men think? Perhaps she was a rare outlier. Or perhaps it's not an accident that so many Russians appear to continue to vote for Putin's party.
      - xwdv 3y ago
peepeepoopoo20 3y ago
[flagged]
ninja-ninja 3y ago
the weirdest title in the history of time
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

193 points by cratermoon 3y ago

the sheer overuse of scare-quotes in this article turned me away from it almost immediately. do you really have to quote the word 'items' as if it's that much of a foreign, unprecedented concept

verall 3y ago
It's just distinguishing what is in-game for legacy audiences it's not scaring anybody
- LoganDark 3y ago
  > it's not scaring anybody i don't use the term 'scare-quotes' to mean "to scare people", but rather because that's actually what the practice is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes
  - verall 3y ago
    I know what a scare quote is, and their implication could be to "scare" like calling someone "an artist" or saying that you made a "good comment". But the article isn't trying to imply skepticism or disclaim particular words, it's just trying to distinguish what is in-game for people who don't know what minecraft is.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      maybe it was slightly too subtle for me to have used single quotes in my comment and not pointed it out. in this case they would have been more appropriate it's entirely likely this was just a formatting mistake, but it still feels "off" enough for me to get uncomfortable and stop reading
      - pessimizer 3y ago
        If you're using the word 'item' to describe a data structure in minecraft, you're not using it in the traditional way, you're using it in a technical way.
        LoganDark 3y ago
        i think it's perfectly reasonable for them to have used double-quotes for 'chests' because that is a very gaming-specific item (perhaps not minecraft-specific- looks at every dungeon crawler). however, something being a data structure or not doesn't really matter when 'items' means exactly what you would expect it to mean within minecraft, especially when said item is a book!
hot_gril 3y ago
People who don't play video games don't know what an item is in a video game.
- londonReed 3y ago
  Really? I have a hard time believing that. The concept has been around since the 80's, if not before then. Should we be putting scare quotes around the word "Mouse" when we use it to refer to a computer mouse because it's not a literal animal mouse?
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    There are probably way more people familiar with computer mice than video games.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  that's like saying people who don't use computers won't understand that text is in a computer even though it has the same meaning as, say, text in a book
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Item in plain English means basically anything that can be counted, usually something small. Item in a video game usually means something players can pick up, maybe use, and drop, as opposed to something that's part of the environment. Item in Minecraft has a technical meaning, basically anything that can go into a hopper inventory, as opposed to particles, blocks, mobs, stuck arrows, other entities...
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      saying there is an item called a book in minecraft will not go over the average person's head

tivert 3y ago

> “The criteria for inclusion is handled by Reporters Without Borders, which ensures the library’s content is accurate, truthful, and sensitive,” reports Cian Mahar. Whenever I see a project like this, I have to ask: what kinds of true things are censored from the "uncensored library"? > But even where almost all media is blocked or controlled, the world’s most successful computer game is still accessible. Reporters Without Borders (RSF) uses this loophole to bypass internet censorship to bring back the truth – within Minecraft.” For how long? They used to say the same thing about the internet itself.

hot_gril 3y ago
At least now a country has to ban Minecraft to ban those books, or force MC to drop its encryption and invent a very obscure Minecraft packet inspection technique that players will more easily circumvent some other way.
trelane 3y ago
> Whenever I see a project like this, I have to ask: what kinds of true things are censored from the "uncensored library"? I was curious about this as well. The "criteria for inclusion" link takes you to a page on "weeding:" https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/weeding-is-fundamental/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/weeding-is-fundamenta... It describes the process (a few different ones, MUSTY, green/yellow/red) but not a lot of concrete facts (what books were "weeded" or which books were suggested but not purchased.)
- hot_gril 3y ago
  There isn't going to be an exact process. The answer is, they say so, and someone else can make his own library if he doesn't like their choices.
gorwell 3y ago
"sensitive" as a criteria is a dead giveaway they are censors advertising themselves as the opposite. It's an evolved brand of censor; like some types of predator snakes that have evolved to mimic its harmless prey.

mcpackieh 3y ago

I visited this server a year or two ago and tbqh I think it's more about the library building (a very large and impressive build) then the contents of the library. The library building so so huge you can spend several minutes walking from one book to the other. If it were just about distributing the books through minecraft they could have created a much more compact library where all the books are within convenient reaching distance. Basically it's more of an art installation than it is a serious censorship circumvention tool. Still neat for what it is I guess.

last_responder 3y ago
>Basically it's more of an art installation than it is a serious censorship circumvention tool. Still neat for what it is I guess. Why cant it be both?
hot_gril 3y ago
Reminds me of the UC Berkeley Minecraft server, where they recreated the entire campus during the boredom of 2020. Maybe they could put real books inside Main Stacks.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

starkparker 3y ago

(2022) I remember when publicity stunts like this would ship in Second Life. The more things change...

dmbche 3y ago

I'm reminded of the people that were chatting in MW2 games by writing on the walls with bullet holes!

itronitron 3y ago
It's common for players on minecraft to take turns placing signs next to each other if they want to have a 'private' conversation with another player (which is handy in some competitive game modes), and I've also seen muted players name their pets in-game with messages that they want to communicate.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  > messages that they want to communicate Very nice way of putting it.
- slow_typist 3y ago
  The kids are doing a lot of impressive stuff. When building together, the owner of the plot leads other builders by literally showing them what and how to build, it’s way quicker than chat, they are very disciplined, repeat the building steps, then stop and watch the owner in order to see if they did it right. Sometimes they need a few iterations but it’s still quicker than chat.

constantcrying 3y ago

ISIS and neo-nazis can host websites on the public internet. What possible reason is there to host it on minecraft instead of as html on the internet? Or on tor if need be? This seems really, really stupid. (Except for the actual Minecraft building, which seems quite nice)

oersted 3y ago
It seems to me more of an artistic/social statement rather than an actual practical resource. And it is an effective one: interesting enough to become somewhat viral, and the architecture itself conveys a strong message.
hot_gril 3y ago
Cause random kids and other people have an easier and more fun time hosting Minecraft servers. Makes it go viral more easily and also adds one more way to access it.
wongarsu 3y ago
Authoritarian regimes have lots of infrastructure in place to censor http(s) traffic, and at least China is getting quite good at restricting tor usage. Meanwhile they probably don't have much in place to ban specific minecraft servers, and their deep packet inspection might not cover Minecraft books. There's value in using obscure technologies.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Highly relevant hackernews comment from 2020: > It's worth noting that this project will likely not benefit the people of China. A somewhat obscure fact is that China has its own edition of Minecraft which cannot connect to servers of the mainstream edition. https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_China https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Minecraft_China https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22569178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22569178
  - debugnik 3y ago

tuukkah 3y ago

In the context of Russian war in Ukraine: > “As the Russian government has de facto suppressed its national press and blocked access to foreign media, Counter-Strike has remained as one of the rare channels that allows us to communicate independent information to Russians about real events from the war” https://www.pcgamesn.com/counter-strike-global-offensive/csgo-map-russia-ukraine https://www.pcgamesn.com/counter-strike-global-offensive/csg...

sebzim4500 3y ago
I've always wondered how this could work in practice. It's hard enough to convince your average American fox news fan that putin might not be a great guy, how exactly are you going to convince a Russian?
- tuukkah 3y ago
  Not all Russians are stupid: many (most?) understand that they are being lied to and some (especially the younger generations) are interested in reading independent sources. I think these services are for those people -- facts can be highly valuable (and worth jumping through the necessary hoops).
  - cubefox 3y ago
    N=1, but ... a few months before Russia invaded Ukraine, I talked to a Russian girl at a party in Germany. She said she "voted with her feet" when she decided to move out of Russia. So she wasn't very Russia friendly. Moreover, young women are probably the most progressive demographic full-stop. Yet when I asked her about Ukraine, she repeated all the standard Russian government propaganda about an alleged NATO threat and stated that she was "neutral" on whether Russia should invade Ukraine. I was pretty shocked. If even young female expats think this way, what do older Russian men think? Perhaps she was a rare outlier. Or perhaps it's not an accident that so many Russians appear to continue to vote for Putin's party.
    - xwdv 3y ago

peepeepoopoo20 3y ago

[flagged]

ninja-ninja 3y ago

the weirdest title in the history of time

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]