9 ms·

> I'm not sure how someone wearing body armor and carrying multiple weapons that can incapacitate or kill someone can be intimidated by a smile. They're wannab

by bamfly 3y ago

> I'm not sure how someone wearing body armor and carrying multiple weapons that can incapacitate or kill someone can be intimidated by a smile. They're wannabe military tough-guys with laughably worse training and culture, much of which tells them they should be pee-pants scared all the time (seriously—folks very-successfully sell some wacko training courses to cops; or, just look at the disconnected-from-reality-and-common-sense mythology they've built up, within their ranks, around fentanyl). That's the best-case explanation for that behavior. Sometimes they're literal machismo-fueled gangsters (yes, literally, as in, "involved in organized crime") and will punch down all day long to make sure they're feared. [EDIT] Actually, school districts suffer from some similar problems, as far as being sold all kinds of ineffective and wrong-headed wacko programs and training, and too-frequently ending up corrupt little petty empires (OMG, the amount of money superintendents siphon off to pals...)—I think in both cases we may have opted for a level of devolution that's tipped at least a bit too far toward local autonomy, and could perhaps benefit from something like a professional management/officer corp that gets re-assigned every few years, like officers in the military, to prevent empire-building and make corruption and deviation into wacko-land much less likely. Though, I think that kind of thing's on exactly nobody's radar, so don't expect it to ever happen. [EDIT EDIT] I mean obviously the problem's more severe and grave with cops, it just occurred to me that a lot of the problems in both spheres might be for organizationally-similar reasons.

softfalcon 3y ago
Yeah, this is becoming more and more the case. I have friends who are associated with or in law enforcement and if you ever end up at a bar with them they will endlessly talk about the "threats to their safety" on the job. I often hear stories where they're checking out a house that has supposed drug use (or similar) and they play it up like they're a marine in a war zone, going to have a man-down shoot out. In reality, they knock on the door, a very high college student answers, they provide the warrant, search through a house of strung out people, and they do their thing. That being said, our area has a lot of rural patrols and we have had a few incidents where people fire back at the cops on their acreage and it turns into an incident. However, even when dealing with "crazy Billy with a shotgun", they're 2 people, who then call in backup, also have a shotgun, and are otherwise armed. The power dynamic still favours the cops even in that extreme situation. I feel like there are a lot of rare incidents that get repeated over and over within the police force that keep the cops on edge and further the belief of a need for more and more budget increases for more and more military-style equipment. For instance, our local city police force just bragged on twitter that they bought a modified troop carrier and a ramming tank for SWAT-like break and enter operations. I'm not sure I want my police owning a literal tank when they already have me outgunned with assault rifles, shot guns, sidearms, and sheer numbers. By the way, this is in Canada. I'm not even talking about the more extreme stuff going on South of the border.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  Bullies and thieves seek the valor and respectability they think their position warrants
- biomcgary 3y ago
  I have neighbor who was a police officer until last month. She was fired because she was trying to push back against an aggressive, corrupt culture in her small town police department. She and another officer had arrested a non-violent, mentally disturbed individual, who had been perfectly compliant in custody. (The guy shoplifted a beer occasionally to quiet the voices in his head.) Another officer walked in and immediately grabbed the arrestee (already in handcuffs) and threw him on the ground, fracturing his skull and causing seizures. Our neighbor pushed for an investigation repeatedly (which would have taken her off the job until complete, since she was the commanding officer on the scene), but it was denied. She was fired shortly after. She is filing a lawsuit to get her job back and the family of the police brutality victim is also suing. I hope they both win, but I do worry about our neighbor's life expectancy if she gets her job back. The tech industry has strong incentives to invade privacy, push inflammatory content, and for otherwise good people to look the other way. Nevertheless, I am opposed to broad brush denigration of employees in the sector, many of which do push back in quiet ways against dark patterns, even if not enough. I feel the same way about law enforcement. The biggest difference between tech and law enforcement is that police work involves stakes that are higher in the short-term and more visible, but tech is far more dangerous in the long-term through, e.g., inflammatory social media, persistent surveillance, etc.
- xtiansimon 3y ago
  > “… ramming tank for SWAT-like break and enter operations. I'm not sure I want my police owning a literal tank when they already have me outgunned…” I have a family member in law enforcement. I asked them this very question. What do you need this monster vehicle for? Their answer was they can approach a target house and communicate with the occupant without putting officers in harms way (as much as a bullet-proof ramming armored vehicle keeps its passengers safe ). The alternative is officers are much closer to the threat/danger, which makes for a situation which can escalate very quickly to deadly force.
LanceH 3y ago
> They're wannabe military tough-guys with laughably worse training and culture Every time they shoot someone after serving a warrant when the subject of the warrant isn't there, it just blows my mind. Do they really just get warrant signed, then roll up and break in? No surveillance? Who the hell wants to go into a closed room if you could just wait for them to walk outside and swoop in on them when they are in view. But I guess if you have the gear, you must use it.
- Arrath 3y ago
  There's much less of an adrenaline rush in an extended stakeout and cuffing a suspect when they are walking to their car to go to work, or getting the morning newspaper. The fun is to be had in the kicking in of doors, yelling at terrified residents, and so on.
Supermancho 3y ago
> they should be pee-pants scared all the time Not to step out and defend cops too much but this narrative is unfair...I believe the right to bear arms includes guns and we pay for that as a society. The ones who pay the most are LE. They primarily have to deal with the worst elements of society and the most volatile of individuals. I don't envy the job. I would be scared all the time too. Chances of me being shot at work are near zero. Chances that a street cop is shot are relatively high. However, they don't take too kindly to allowing threats to themselves or other officers to go unchallenged and are primarily interested with maintaining a sense of being in control of any situation they step into, as a matter of human psychology. People tend not to fuck with the people in charge, even if they don't see weapons. This is how the safety element is framed and it's not intrinsically foolish. This naturally conflicts with various Constitutional rights, even in theory, so we get these crazy cases where it's a matter of reputation. You mess with the cops, it can come back at you. Americans expect, that almost everywhere, this holds true. This sounds like a lot of power structures in modern society, does it not? as bamfly pointed out.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > The ones who pay the most are LE. This is simply not true. Cops die via gunfire in sub-100 numbers annually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_office...
  - Supermancho 3y ago
    I meant pay for the right to bear arms in being exposed to the consequences. Might want to look at gunfire injuries that are not deaths. There is also the issue of how this happens despite training, their own weapons, armor, etc that are daily requirements. The general populace would probably see better survival rates with these things as well, right? It's more than a little biased to just point at deaths.
zer8k 3y ago
> They're wannabe military tough-guys with laughably worse training and culture, A lot of them are ex-military which is why every incident is treated like a mini-fallujah. There should be better psychological evaluation of police. It's harder to get a gun as a citizen anywhere in the US than it is to become a cop.The very least we can do is treat them to a far higher standard than we do citizens given that they have a monopoly on violence and qualified immunity. But that would run contrary to their purpose. Cops aren't there to protect you and me. They are the HR of the local, state, and national Government. They're there to protect the interests of the state.
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  >It's harder to get a gun as a citizen anywhere in the US than it is to become a cop. I'm normally the last one to be licking boots when it comes to discussions of the role of law enforcement in our society. With that said, this is hyperbole and obviously falsifiable. There are lots of places in the US where it is very easy to get a gun and at least somewhat difficult to become a cop.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    How about: It's harder to kill anyone (and get away with it) as a citizen anywhere in the US than it is as a cop Some cops have bloodlust and/or are in cop-gangs that have initiation-rituals that demand commiting murder before you can join.
    - idiotsecant 3y ago
      Probably more true, although I had to parse this sentence several times to understand what you were trying to say. We put a lot of trust in cops. It's probably unavoidable that some of them will turn out to be terrible people. I am in favor of trying to keep that ratio as low as possible but I don't have any particularly good solutions on how to do that. Do you?
      - sangnoir 3y ago
RickJWagner 3y ago
I have a nephew that's a cop. I've had friends that are cops. They do a hard job, protecting the public, for little pay. Every day they leave their home not knowing if some nut-job is going to try to kill them that day. This is the truest view I know of.

by bamfly 3y ago

softfalcon 3y ago

Yeah, this is becoming more and more the case. I have friends who are associated with or in law enforcement and if you ever end up at a bar with them they will endlessly talk about the "threats to their safety" on the job. I often hear stories where they're checking out a house that has supposed drug use (or similar) and they play it up like they're a marine in a war zone, going to have a man-down shoot out. In reality, they knock on the door, a very high college student answers, they provide the warrant, search through a house of strung out people, and they do their thing. That being said, our area has a lot of rural patrols and we have had a few incidents where people fire back at the cops on their acreage and it turns into an incident. However, even when dealing with "crazy Billy with a shotgun", they're 2 people, who then call in backup, also have a shotgun, and are otherwise armed. The power dynamic still favours the cops even in that extreme situation. I feel like there are a lot of rare incidents that get repeated over and over within the police force that keep the cops on edge and further the belief of a need for more and more budget increases for more and more military-style equipment. For instance, our local city police force just bragged on twitter that they bought a modified troop carrier and a ramming tank for SWAT-like break and enter operations. I'm not sure I want my police owning a literal tank when they already have me outgunned with assault rifles, shot guns, sidearms, and sheer numbers. By the way, this is in Canada. I'm not even talking about the more extreme stuff going on South of the border.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
Bullies and thieves seek the valor and respectability they think their position warrants
biomcgary 3y ago
I have neighbor who was a police officer until last month. She was fired because she was trying to push back against an aggressive, corrupt culture in her small town police department. She and another officer had arrested a non-violent, mentally disturbed individual, who had been perfectly compliant in custody. (The guy shoplifted a beer occasionally to quiet the voices in his head.) Another officer walked in and immediately grabbed the arrestee (already in handcuffs) and threw him on the ground, fracturing his skull and causing seizures. Our neighbor pushed for an investigation repeatedly (which would have taken her off the job until complete, since she was the commanding officer on the scene), but it was denied. She was fired shortly after. She is filing a lawsuit to get her job back and the family of the police brutality victim is also suing. I hope they both win, but I do worry about our neighbor's life expectancy if she gets her job back. The tech industry has strong incentives to invade privacy, push inflammatory content, and for otherwise good people to look the other way. Nevertheless, I am opposed to broad brush denigration of employees in the sector, many of which do push back in quiet ways against dark patterns, even if not enough. I feel the same way about law enforcement. The biggest difference between tech and law enforcement is that police work involves stakes that are higher in the short-term and more visible, but tech is far more dangerous in the long-term through, e.g., inflammatory social media, persistent surveillance, etc.
xtiansimon 3y ago
> “… ramming tank for SWAT-like break and enter operations. I'm not sure I want my police owning a literal tank when they already have me outgunned…” I have a family member in law enforcement. I asked them this very question. What do you need this monster vehicle for? Their answer was they can approach a target house and communicate with the occupant without putting officers in harms way (as much as a bullet-proof ramming armored vehicle keeps its passengers safe ). The alternative is officers are much closer to the threat/danger, which makes for a situation which can escalate very quickly to deadly force.

LanceH 3y ago

> They're wannabe military tough-guys with laughably worse training and culture Every time they shoot someone after serving a warrant when the subject of the warrant isn't there, it just blows my mind. Do they really just get warrant signed, then roll up and break in? No surveillance? Who the hell wants to go into a closed room if you could just wait for them to walk outside and swoop in on them when they are in view. But I guess if you have the gear, you must use it.

Arrath 3y ago
There's much less of an adrenaline rush in an extended stakeout and cuffing a suspect when they are walking to their car to go to work, or getting the morning newspaper. The fun is to be had in the kicking in of doors, yelling at terrified residents, and so on.

Supermancho 3y ago

> they should be pee-pants scared all the time Not to step out and defend cops too much but this narrative is unfair...I believe the right to bear arms includes guns and we pay for that as a society. The ones who pay the most are LE. They primarily have to deal with the worst elements of society and the most volatile of individuals. I don't envy the job. I would be scared all the time too. Chances of me being shot at work are near zero. Chances that a street cop is shot are relatively high. However, they don't take too kindly to allowing threats to themselves or other officers to go unchallenged and are primarily interested with maintaining a sense of being in control of any situation they step into, as a matter of human psychology. People tend not to fuck with the people in charge, even if they don't see weapons. This is how the safety element is framed and it's not intrinsically foolish. This naturally conflicts with various Constitutional rights, even in theory, so we get these crazy cases where it's a matter of reputation. You mess with the cops, it can come back at you. Americans expect, that almost everywhere, this holds true. This sounds like a lot of power structures in modern society, does it not? as bamfly pointed out.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ceejayoz 3y ago
> The ones who pay the most are LE. This is simply not true. Cops die via gunfire in sub-100 numbers annually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_office...
- Supermancho 3y ago
  I meant pay for the right to bear arms in being exposed to the consequences. Might want to look at gunfire injuries that are not deaths. There is also the issue of how this happens despite training, their own weapons, armor, etc that are daily requirements. The general populace would probably see better survival rates with these things as well, right? It's more than a little biased to just point at deaths.

zer8k 3y ago

> They're wannabe military tough-guys with laughably worse training and culture, A lot of them are ex-military which is why every incident is treated like a mini-fallujah. There should be better psychological evaluation of police. It's harder to get a gun as a citizen anywhere in the US than it is to become a cop.The very least we can do is treat them to a far higher standard than we do citizens given that they have a monopoly on violence and qualified immunity. But that would run contrary to their purpose. Cops aren't there to protect you and me. They are the HR of the local, state, and national Government. They're there to protect the interests of the state.

idiotsecant 3y ago
>It's harder to get a gun as a citizen anywhere in the US than it is to become a cop. I'm normally the last one to be licking boots when it comes to discussions of the role of law enforcement in our society. With that said, this is hyperbole and obviously falsifiable. There are lots of places in the US where it is very easy to get a gun and at least somewhat difficult to become a cop.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  How about: It's harder to kill anyone (and get away with it) as a citizen anywhere in the US than it is as a cop Some cops have bloodlust and/or are in cop-gangs that have initiation-rituals that demand commiting murder before you can join.
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    Probably more true, although I had to parse this sentence several times to understand what you were trying to say. We put a lot of trust in cops. It's probably unavoidable that some of them will turn out to be terrible people. I am in favor of trying to keep that ratio as low as possible but I don't have any particularly good solutions on how to do that. Do you?
    - sangnoir 3y ago

RickJWagner 3y ago

I have a nephew that's a cop. I've had friends that are cops. They do a hard job, protecting the public, for little pay. Every day they leave their home not knowing if some nut-job is going to try to kill them that day. This is the truest view I know of.