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TSMC delays U.S. chip plant start to 2025 due to labor shortages
- ChatGTP 3y agoThey are clever enough not to give away their shield...clever girl...
- philipov 3y agoThis sounds like a Lenin quote.
- ChatGTP 3y agoI don't care, if they didn't have that factory in Taiwan, there is no way the USA would be defending Taiwan like it is...why do you think the US want to build a factory in Phoenix? The US has openly stated that it will scuttle the Taiwan factory if China invades.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoWhere is the exhaustive list of jobs they are trying to fill with open reqs?
- LatteLazy 3y agoThere is a very long list if you search linked in. Personally, would you: * move to Pheonix * do shift work * complete a special local college course at your own expense * to work for a company with notoriously demanding standards for staff and there are no salaries listed as far as I see...
- sschueller 3y agoWhat kind of garbage output can we expect from such labor abuse? Even with testing and all those processes this has to increase costs? Looking forward to my nvidea GPU failing a week into use...
- itake 3y agoThat’s what they currently do in their Tainan, Taiwan factory. I thought they were known for good quality chips?
- m00x 3y agoYes, it's not an issue with the management style, but the high expectation of working conditions of the American worker. While the whole world is busting their ass, they're hooked on 9-5s. Tesla is a great example of a manufacturer that pays top dollar and gets back top-quality work.
- mcpeepants 3y ago> top-quality work Why are they rated so poorly for initial quality?
- m00x 3y agoThey started a car company from scratch, it's not an easy feat. The build quality isn't at par with the rest of the manufacturers, but the drivetrain and batteries are by far the best. (disclaimer: I own a Ford Mach-e and tried all the Teslas)
- red-iron-pine 3y agoSo they're a battery company that makes average cars
- sschueller 3y ago"high expectation of working conditions" Working conditions in the Unites States are quite bad compared to some other places in the world. "At will" employment, wages so low that tips are required to offset them etc. I can go on and on. Just take a read in /r/antiwork/ at reddit. A lot of those things are even illegal but people don't even bother anymore to report them. We are at a point in time where we have the luxury to improve working conditions and not go back to basically slavery. The issue is we are enriching the rich instead of those that are doing the hard labor. We have the whole thing backwards, actual labor should be rewarded the most as it takes that one thing away from us that we have a limit resource of which is time. If we don't strive to improve our lives then what is the point? Work and die to make the life for a few excessively luxurious?
- m00x 3y agoYes, and we should encourage people to go in this direction instead of becoming influencers, Youtubers, and models. The West needs to start building again or it will become an extinct empire.
- dunham 3y agoThe article says they’re looking for people who can install their equipment: “We are encountering certain challenges, as there is an insufficient amount of skilled workers with the specialized expertise required for equipment installation in a semiconductor-grade facility,"
- registeredcorn 3y agoAs far as I can tell, there's something like 52 positions they are trying to fill. https://ro.careers.tsmc.com/search/?createNewAlert=false&q=&locationsearch=AZ https://ro.careers.tsmc.com/search/?createNewAlert=false&q=&...
- sylware 3y agoSkilled hardware technicians for such tools (some from ASML) have a sciences/maths background (no, javascript/c++ coder without such background does not cut it and where did you see "highly skilled" here??). They need a lot of "training", so, if there is no long term outcome... that's going to be tough.
- throw9away6 3y agoAre the skills even transferable or are there so few companies that do this is a one company job
- sylware 3y agoIf I recall well a documentary about ASML, each photolitography tool has such trained individual attributed during its whole life time. And that was for "simple" DUV tools (immersion photolitography). So for the EUV-HighNA tools...
- abakker 3y agoI suspect instead a wage shortage, not a lack of people to hire.
- schnitzelstoat 3y agoI'm not so sure - this is incredibly technical work so it doesn't ring as hollow as it does when McDonald's or whatever claim the same.
- newsclues 3y agoA lot of the work is actually just working with dangerous chemicals, and isn't a technical desk job with prestige. It's factory work!
- sparrowInHand 3y agoThis - chip factory work is actually a factory job, with a obssesive compulsive quality control part. One stop, one power drop and the yield goes nowhere..
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- schnitzelstoat 3y agoYeah, my brother worked on stuff like this while working in a Physics lab, he got transferred to doing the software dev parts in the end as working with the acid was very stressful.
- itake 3y agoMy family member works at TSMC. Last I talked to him (8mo ago), American engineers quit left and right due to working conditions and pay.
- registeredcorn 3y ago
- WarOnPrivacy 3y agohttps://archive.is/HdLIo https://archive.is/HdLIo
- namaria 3y agoConsidering TSMC corporate culture and staffing practices, and the scale of raw material and supply chain complexity needed for advanced integrated circuits manufacturing - most of which China dominates - I think we're in a bind here. It was the overlap of American capital and engineering and East Asian resources and labor that made the current scale of compute possible. As China absorbs Taiwan when their area denial capabilities become credible enough to keep the American navy away, we can expect an end to cheap compute. Either nationalists in Taiwan degrade assets enough or China simply shuts us out. But the second half of the 21st century won't be full of enterprise saas and a supercomputer on every pocket.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>we can expect an end to cheap compute Hot take: If that means on-shored computing HW jobs back in the west, I'm all for it. I'm only upgrading my phone/PC every 6 years or so anyway, I can live with them being more expensive if they're made in the US/EU and provide local jobs. Them being more expensive could also mean more focus on SW improvements and optimizations instead of throwing more HW resources at bloated and poorly written SW, more focus on longevity and repairability, and less e-waste for the environment, at the cost of corporate profits and the consoomerist attitude focused on hyping up this year's must-have "new-shiny" that's just 2% better than last year's "old-shiny". All I see is a win-win.
- namaria 3y agoFair points. Although if computers become more expensive the overall result is everyone becomes poorer. Also, the energy transition towards decarbonization entails smart grids and intense use of computers for design, deployment and operation of a more diverse fleet of energy generating and storage assets. People with the right skills might be better off, that's true.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>if computers become more expensive the overall result is everyone becomes poorer How so? This might have been the case in the '90's and '00's when computers were still in adoption for home users, but nowadays, almost everyone already has a usable PC and a smartphone, even in developing nations in Africa. Them being more expensive will mean only businesses and rich kids will get to play with the latest shiny, while Average Joes will have to stick to older tech and focus on sustainability and repairability instead of upgrading every 2-3 years. I could be wrong, but I see this generating more HW repair jobs for technicians in every community like TV repair shops in the old days, and even more SW jobs needed to improve SW to run on older HW in order to target more consumers. I don't see how this makes everyone poorer, other than execs at companies making a living selling a new HW widget with 2% improvement every year while abandoning SW support for last year's widget to force everyone to throw their old widget away, cough, Quallcomm, cough.
- mildchalupa 3y agoTSMC is Taiwan's single largest strategic national interest. It was started with government investment and it likely remains under a degree of national control. If you replicate the fabs of TSMC in the US, Taiwan will lose its strategic bargening chip. Why have the US defend the island if it offers no additional value? With no 2nd source supplier the US is in a position to provide strong deterrence against invasion.
- Garvi 3y agoIf that's the only reason the US is continuously poking the Chinese panda, we should keep that in mind the next time they invoke the humanitarian card.
- pdabbadabba 3y agoIt's possible to take this too far. I agree that TSMC is a major piece of the U.S.'s interest in Taiwan. but it's not the only thing. The U.S. supported Taiwan long before TSMC came around.
- ericmay 3y agoIt's not and let's refrain from characterizing complex geopolitical issues as simply the "US is continuously poking the Chinese panda" because it does all of us a disservice and lowers the bar. Anyway - the United States places value on Taiwan not just because of TSMC (otherwise why was there value before TSMC even existed) but because Taiwan serves as a key piece in the so-called first island chain of US-allied nations that sit on the eastern coast of China. This includes Taiwan, but also Japan and others. The reason today that America is very interested in Taiwan is because in the event of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan - American commitment to the Pacific comes in to question. Will the US respond to, and go directly to war with China? If it does, can it win? If it does, what other nations will come to the aid of the US (or China), and who will stay out? The key piece here is that it puts the American alliance system to the test and some (not I) question whether the United States is committed to defending other countries in the Pacific theater if it means a "real war" - i.e. Japan, Korea. The US already doesn't need TSMC for any strategic purposes - while the loss of the fabs in Taiwan would be devastating to the world economy, America (and other nations for that matter) still produce semiconductors, just not quite as good. You can still build cars with Intel chips, but you aren't building the iPhone 16 with them. It's not an existential threat, though certainly a very bad thing. Alternatively, if China were to invade Taiwan and the US failed to respond, that would be an existential threat to the United States because it would effectively kick the U.S. out of the Pacific and cause long standing allies such as Japan and Korea to play both sides instead of being firmly in America's camp. Coming back to TSMC building a chip plant in the US - even if they were to (and they probably will) it won't really diminish or change the Taiwan Question and undoubtedly as part of increasing US defense aid to Taiwan the US is going to want to hedge its bets a bit and have an operational fab in the US so that if a war does break it the impacts are lessened. I don't see this as a change to US Pacific strategy because it's not a fundamental concern.
- schwoll 3y agoThe fact they chose Arizona to build this thing is mind boggling.
- natnat 3y agoThere was a really good episode of the Odd Lots podcast where they discussed this. Arizona is a very favorable location for semiconductor fabs because there's a very low risk for natural disaster (no hurricanes or earthquakes), the temperature changes are relatively predictable, land and electricity are relatively cheap, and Intel already has a large fab there. Water is a little bit of a struggle, but they can buy water rights from farmers, who use most of Arizona's water.
- koheripbal 3y agoSolar power is extremely cost effective in Arizona. It more than compensates for the additional heat. It also allows for cheaper data center hosting.
- Kye 3y ago>> "but they can buy water rights from farmers, who use most of Arizona's water." They probably waste less water, so this might be a net positive for the environment. Abuse of water rights given out in a very different time is a major point of contention in the desert region of the country.
- crftr 3y agoArizona has a low chance of natural disasters, land is relatively cheap, and they're known for being tax competitive.
- allenp 3y agoAs others have mentioned there is a large Intel fab (and other smaller fabs) in the area. I suspect this gives them insights into the feasibility of success there and also means there is an existing talent pool to draw from. It basically de-risks the investment. There are probably only a handful of likely places to do this - OR, CA, AZ, TX, maybe NY. Intel building in OH is more difficult from a bootstraping perspective.
- Nebruh 3y ago>labor shortages There are more than 300 million people in the US. This is definitely a shortage, but this isn't a "labor" shortage. This is a "we're not willing to pay you enough why does nobody want to work" shortage. Counterpoint - sending people from TSMC that already have hands on experience will make things much easier for them. If they only want people like that, then yes, they can't just divide the facility in two, like a cell. They'll need to train more.
- koheripbal 3y agoThere are not 300 million ASML experienced engineers in the US. If you are experienced with ASML machinery and are willing to more to Arizona, then you should contact TSMC, because they are paying over the market rate right now for those roles. These Reddit-esque takes are not worthy of HN.
- throw9away6 3y agoIs market rate just really low for the role? Do you have any sources for over market rates?
- koheripbal 3y agoNo, the salaries are very high. The challenge is finding sufficient number of people outside Taiwan with ASML experience.
- throw9away6 3y agoWhat’s very high? Working 60 hrs a week in a factory I’d expect 200k starting
- DoughnutHole 3y agoThey’re not looking for minimum wage workers to assemble chips by hand - they’re looking for hundreds if not thousands of engineers and technicians with experience with advanced semiconductor manufacturing equipment. I’m sure the salaries are perfectly acceptable. Sure there’s 300 million bodies in America, many of them appropriately skilled - how many engineers are there with the requisite experience that are open to work in Arizona? I’m sure they could send hundreds of their own experts - if those workers weren’t needed for existing operations in Taiwan.
- jacknews 3y agouh oh, isn't China's taiwan invasion scheduled for 2024?
- anonymousiam 3y agoLack of skilled labor seems unlikely. Perhaps they believe that the US would be more willing to defend Taiwan if there was no alternative foundry in Arizona...
- say_it_as_it_is 3y agoWhy live in a state that is running out of water? Isn't water necessary for chip-making, too?
- Strom 3y agoWater is also so essential that it's safe to assume there will be a solution. So it makes sense to look at other factors, which are less likely to be fixed as swiftly.
- BillSaysThis 3y agoBecause water can just be manufactured? I don't understand your making that assumption when the states in the region, plus Mexico and Native tribes, are fighting over what's available.
- HDThoreaun 3y agoYes, fresh water can just be manufactured from salt water. It's not especially cheap, but it is surprisingly affordable. Arizona is not worried about Mexico or the tribes, push comes to shove they're getting nothing.
- tech_ken 3y agoI think the push to fab SCs in the US is going to quickly run up against the fact that consumer technology pricing is incompatible with our labor standards. We've spent the last 50+ years exploiting global wage inequality to flood the country with cheap consumer goods, and we've reached a point where our sense of self-satisfaction is entirely fused to the acquisition of these cheap goods. Along the way we've ceded a lot of ground in the way of healthy communities and a rich public sphere. National pride is only going to make up for so much when it causes the iPhone 16 to jump $500 and people are still stuck in their isolating suburban hellscape. IMO the only way for this to work in the long-term is a national reset about what "quality of life" really means, and I don't think our political class is willing to engage with all of the questions that will entail. edit: "American Factory" is a really interesting documentary that covers something like this dynamic in the context of an auto-glass manufacturing facility. US workers fought hard for their labor rights and capital responded by fleeing the country to more permissive political regimes. We accepted this loss of jobs because it kept the all-import car prices down. Now that other countries are starting to eat our lunch in the global economy we're suddenly not so stoked about globalization, oh no the consequences of my own actions!!
- riku_iki 3y ago> "American Factory" is a really interesting documentary that covers something like this dynamic in the context of an auto-glass manufacturing facility. probably fab employee adds more value, and can be paid much higher and work with higher labor standards.
- tech_ken 3y agoIf the product is being sold for less than its true value then the person making that product will be underpaid and/or overworked. Sure someone choosing between "glass factory" and "semiconductor fab" may choose the latter if they can, but that doesn't mean that they will get standards and pay commensurate with other jobs in the US requiring similar training or effort. Taiwanese labor standards are way lower than in the US, and the price-point of our consumer electronic goods requires that. Either the prices go up (and people get mad), the labor standards come down (and people get mad), or the tech companies accept lower profit margins (and capital owners get mad, and they tend to get their way). There's no magic fix to this trilemma, historically we've just moved the bad labor standards out of sight so US voters can get their labor standards and Tim Cook can get his ballooning valuation. One of these two things is going to have to give if we want to make chips on-shore.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoI will never understand how they managed to convince TSMC to build a fab in the US, it's literally not competitive at all What is the rational behind this choice? Israel would have been a better choice
- alephnerd 3y agoIsrael is expensive to fab because of a labor crunch with American companies (eg. Intel, Micron) offering competitive salaries and land prices being Silicon Valley level insane. This was why Tower Semiconductors (Israel's version of TSMC) negotiated sweetheart deals to open a fab in the US, China, and India before canceling them after an acquisition offer from Intel as well as COVID related supply chain issues in China's case. A similar labor crunch has started to occur in the cybersecurity industry in Israel as well as MNC salaries have begun to reach Seattle levels Israel is an expensive country. It's literally the same size and population of the Bay Area, and has similarly high land prices. This is also a big reason a lot of Israelis started buying houses and apartments in settlements in the West Bank - for the same price you could get a crummy 2 bedroom apartment in TLV or Jerusalem, you could get a house in Ariel or Efrat instead
- jmpman 3y agoIt’s quite competitive. Some of the largest Intel fabs are 52 miles away. But TSMC screwed up when selecting a site in Phoenix. They built on the other side of town. Any engineer currently working at Intel would need to sell their house and move to the other side of town, or be subjected at a 90min commute each way. If their plan was to lure those engineers, they’re going to need to pay more or provide a better quality of life. They appear to plan neither.
- esbranson 3y agoIf anyone has reason to believe that TSMC is gaming the US visa system, or even suspect it, they should probably give the United States a heads up. https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-fraud https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-frau... * The H-1B worker is not or will not be paid the wage certified on the Labor Condition Application (LCA). * There is a wage disparity between H-1B workers and other workers performing the same or similar duties, particularly to the detriment of U.S. workers. * The H-1B worker is not performing the duties specified in the H-1B petition, including when the duties are at a higher level than the position description. * The H-1B worker has less experience than U.S. workers in similar positions in the same company. * The H-1B worker is not working in the intended location as certified on the LCA.