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The article says that they think it wouldn't make a difference. I have no position on Dolphin being on Steam but it might have been worth it to try without th

The article says that they *think* it wouldn't make a difference. I have no position on Dolphin being on Steam but it might have been worth it to try without the key once.

rowanG077 3y ago
They need approval from Nintendo. It's as easy to ask: "Does Nintendo approve that Dolphin with the builtin Wii encryption key is released on Steam".
- veave 3y ago
  They need approval from Nintendo because they include the circumvention code which is illegal under the DMCA. Whether the key is included or not doesn't change anything because the code itself is illegal as it is. But if they removed the circumvention code, Nintendo wouldn't have any right to ask for the emulator not to be published.
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    > Nintendo wouldn't have any right to ask for the emulator not to be published ...which is completely unrelated, since it was Valve who asked Nintendo even though they didn't really have to.
  - tourmalinetaco 3y ago
    Nintendo would deny ANY and ALL circumvention, no matter how “illegal” it is (which it isn’t, if you’d read the article). Nintendo profits off the deaths of their previous hardware, so of course they will say things are illegal which aren’t. I mean they did abuse the DMCA just a few months back against various legal projects. https://gbatemp.net/threads/nintendo-reportedly-issues-dmca-takedown-for-switch-homebrew-projects-skyline-switch-emulator-development-ceased.632406/ https://gbatemp.net/threads/nintendo-reportedly-issues-dmca-...
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      It's way more than just profits, look at all the loved games from their past that they continue to not release on digital storefronts or "Nintendo Plus" or whatever they call it now. Nintendo has an ideological position that essentially the first sale doctrine is wrong and they have privilege over you for things you legally purchased.
  - realusername 3y ago
    > Nintendo wouldn't have any right to ask for the emulator not to be published. They already don't and yet that's what they are doing. There's a difference between legal and private pressure.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    The article says a lawyer firm they hired say it's legal. They dedicate a significant portion of the article to it. So I don't understand how you can just it's illegal. Nintendo doesn't have any right, in the legal sense. That doesn't mean it's smart for Valve to make an enemy of Nintendo. It's obvious Nintendo uses that pressure. Not legal pressure. The DMCA claim is just pretense.
    - dathinab 3y ago
      Exactly there is no claim because a claim can be disputed in court. If Nintendo believes they had a valid claim why only enforce it with Steam but no other places Dolphin is available?
  - dathinab 3y ago
    > code which is illegal under the DMCA. no that code is most most likely not illegal at all because there are cases, under DMCA, where code like that is fully legal this is nothing but a ruse of Nintendo threatening Valve to avoid having to do a proper DMCA request/suing as such an action can be disputed in court, an dispute Nintendo is likely to lose so it's basically Nintendo pressuring Valve to circumvent proper DMCA enforcement procedures in their favor in a sketchy dishonest way which undermines the law (but might happen to not be illegal) if Nintendo would think it's illegal they would already have used DMCA to take down Dolphin everywhere, instead of using such roundabout ways
  - amiga386 3y ago
    No. Valve needs them to get approval from Nintendo because Valve is afraid of Nintendo. They are afraid Nintendo might: 1. Start a lawsuit against Valve rather than Dolphin Team as a SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation). Valve could then end up spending millions defending itself from the mad tyrant and the best case is it spent millions to confirm it was doing nothing wrong in the first place. 2. Tell all their 3rd party publishers to stop publishing on Steam, in order to continue doing business with them, utterly ruining Steam. In both these cases, it has nothing to do with legality or the DMCA, which Dolphin Team's own lawyers have explained if you'd just read the article. It has to do with a big bully getting angry if it doesn't get what it wants, and is willing to throw its weight around.
    - circuit10 3y ago
      Also Valve has published games on the Nintendo Switch
      - Nexxxeh 3y ago
        I had to look up which games they published on Switch, so to save anyone else doing the same: Portal: Companion Collection (containing Portal and Portal 2) came put last year.
    - an-unknown 3y ago
      The interesting question here would be if "Tell all their 3rd party publishers to stop publishing on Steam" would be legally OK or if it would result in a lawsuit against Nintendo because of e.g. anti-competitive behavior.
      - trinsic2 3y ago
        I see that this could go bad for Valve, but the principled side of me thinks this sets a bad precedent for Value and the gaming community at large to be asking for permission from publishers/developers to green light a tool that helps people play games that are no longer able to be played. (if I am understanding this correctly) Retro games are in jeopardy of being lost forever because publishers/developers actively work against making it possible to preserve game history. If that doesn't do harm to the common good, I don't know what does.
- dathinab 3y ago
  no they don't need approval from Nintendo They need Valve to not block them for Nintendo without legal case based on some excuses (which Valve as store owner is somewhat allowed to do). And the one thing Nintendo does not want is a legal case, because they know they are most likely going to lose it and then it's likely not just dolphin which would take advantage of the additional legal clarity created by the case. In the EU I'm not sure there even would be a case because the law being _that_ clear cut in favor of Dolphin.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    Are you serious here? You think the Dolphin team can meaningfully affect Valve here? That's delusional.
    - dathinab 3y ago
      no they can't, and I didn't say so but it's Valve which is blocking them not Nintendo and sure Valve might do so on behest of Nintendo but it's still Valves doing so the idea that Dolphine (or Valve) have to asks Nintendo for anything is just completly absurd and beyond any legal basis which is why Nintendo doesn't use the proper legal methods here IMHO, because then you can dispute it and they can (probably will) lose but as long as Valve plays along there is nothing much Dolphin can do, so again it's Valve who first needs to be convinced before then either Nintendo gives up or you have a proper legal dispute with them anyway like you correctly pointed out there is no way for Dolphin to affect Valve so the is no way for Dolphi on steam
      - rowanG077 3y ago
        Legality is not the issue here. Not everything that is legal can be published on Steam. The people who make it a legal argument after this article are missing the point.
        shagie 3y ago
        (furthering this point) consider the recent Developer claims Steam is rejecting games with AI-generated artwork -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36522665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36522665 / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520701 AI art isn't illegal, but Steam still has taken a position of not wanting to be the middleman for distribution of such content.
dathinab 3y ago
> think after careful considerations and consulting lawyers, and doing that more then one time > been worth it to try without the key once. No it would make the situation worse for them, they can publish it _without any WII support at all_. But not just without the key. Trying it without the key would be like saying "we do know it's illegal" instead of "it's clearly covered by DMCA exceptions and related law". Removing the key without removing the whole WII functionality *is the one think they must no do no matter what*.
- voxl 3y ago
  In what world is placating a business partner an admission of guilt?
  - dathinab 3y ago
    in our in many many ways but in this case it wouldn't be a legal admission of guild but it would be propagated as such by Nintendo if there ever is a legal case reducing the odds of winning such an hypothetical case The reason why Dolphin is legal is based on it being mainly a tool for playing old games you own and potentially with mods, accessibility tools and similar. So for Nintendo to win a case they would need to convince the judge that it's mainly meant for illegal copyright infringement. Their argument would likely be on the line of the Wii code without the ability to load legal Wii games is useless and having it would be really strange as you could only use it with illegal copies with the copy protection stripped. And stripping it is always illegal to do. So it would be designed for illegal usage. (And rare new games released that way but they would argue it doesn't matter in the grater picture). I.e. it would be easier for them to win a legal case against Dolphin without it having been an legal admittance of guild.

The article says that they *think* it wouldn't make a difference. I have no position on Dolphin being on Steam but it might have been worth it to try without th

The article says that they *think* it wouldn't make a difference. I have no position on Dolphin being on Steam but it might have been worth it to try without the key once.

rowanG077 3y ago

They need approval from Nintendo. It's as easy to ask: "Does Nintendo approve that Dolphin with the builtin Wii encryption key is released on Steam".

veave 3y ago
They need approval from Nintendo because they include the circumvention code which is illegal under the DMCA. Whether the key is included or not doesn't change anything because the code itself is illegal as it is. But if they removed the circumvention code, Nintendo wouldn't have any right to ask for the emulator not to be published.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  > Nintendo wouldn't have any right to ask for the emulator not to be published ...which is completely unrelated, since it was Valve who asked Nintendo even though they didn't really have to.
- tourmalinetaco 3y ago
  Nintendo would deny ANY and ALL circumvention, no matter how “illegal” it is (which it isn’t, if you’d read the article). Nintendo profits off the deaths of their previous hardware, so of course they will say things are illegal which aren’t. I mean they did abuse the DMCA just a few months back against various legal projects. https://gbatemp.net/threads/nintendo-reportedly-issues-dmca-takedown-for-switch-homebrew-projects-skyline-switch-emulator-development-ceased.632406/ https://gbatemp.net/threads/nintendo-reportedly-issues-dmca-...
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    It's way more than just profits, look at all the loved games from their past that they continue to not release on digital storefronts or "Nintendo Plus" or whatever they call it now. Nintendo has an ideological position that essentially the first sale doctrine is wrong and they have privilege over you for things you legally purchased.
- realusername 3y ago
  > Nintendo wouldn't have any right to ask for the emulator not to be published. They already don't and yet that's what they are doing. There's a difference between legal and private pressure.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  The article says a lawyer firm they hired say it's legal. They dedicate a significant portion of the article to it. So I don't understand how you can just it's illegal. Nintendo doesn't have any right, in the legal sense. That doesn't mean it's smart for Valve to make an enemy of Nintendo. It's obvious Nintendo uses that pressure. Not legal pressure. The DMCA claim is just pretense.
  - dathinab 3y ago
    Exactly there is no claim because a claim can be disputed in court. If Nintendo believes they had a valid claim why only enforce it with Steam but no other places Dolphin is available?
- dathinab 3y ago
  > code which is illegal under the DMCA. no that code is most most likely not illegal at all because there are cases, under DMCA, where code like that is fully legal this is nothing but a ruse of Nintendo threatening Valve to avoid having to do a proper DMCA request/suing as such an action can be disputed in court, an dispute Nintendo is likely to lose so it's basically Nintendo pressuring Valve to circumvent proper DMCA enforcement procedures in their favor in a sketchy dishonest way which undermines the law (but might happen to not be illegal) if Nintendo would think it's illegal they would already have used DMCA to take down Dolphin everywhere, instead of using such roundabout ways
- amiga386 3y ago
  No. Valve needs them to get approval from Nintendo because Valve is afraid of Nintendo. They are afraid Nintendo might: 1. Start a lawsuit against Valve rather than Dolphin Team as a SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation). Valve could then end up spending millions defending itself from the mad tyrant and the best case is it spent millions to confirm it was doing nothing wrong in the first place. 2. Tell all their 3rd party publishers to stop publishing on Steam, in order to continue doing business with them, utterly ruining Steam. In both these cases, it has nothing to do with legality or the DMCA, which Dolphin Team's own lawyers have explained if you'd just read the article. It has to do with a big bully getting angry if it doesn't get what it wants, and is willing to throw its weight around.
  - circuit10 3y ago
    Also Valve has published games on the Nintendo Switch
    - Nexxxeh 3y ago
      I had to look up which games they published on Switch, so to save anyone else doing the same: Portal: Companion Collection (containing Portal and Portal 2) came put last year.
  - an-unknown 3y ago
    The interesting question here would be if "Tell all their 3rd party publishers to stop publishing on Steam" would be legally OK or if it would result in a lawsuit against Nintendo because of e.g. anti-competitive behavior.
    - trinsic2 3y ago
      I see that this could go bad for Valve, but the principled side of me thinks this sets a bad precedent for Value and the gaming community at large to be asking for permission from publishers/developers to green light a tool that helps people play games that are no longer able to be played. (if I am understanding this correctly) Retro games are in jeopardy of being lost forever because publishers/developers actively work against making it possible to preserve game history. If that doesn't do harm to the common good, I don't know what does.
dathinab 3y ago
no they don't need approval from Nintendo They need Valve to not block them for Nintendo without legal case based on some excuses (which Valve as store owner is somewhat allowed to do). And the one thing Nintendo does not want is a legal case, because they know they are most likely going to lose it and then it's likely not just dolphin which would take advantage of the additional legal clarity created by the case. In the EU I'm not sure there even would be a case because the law being _that_ clear cut in favor of Dolphin.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  Are you serious here? You think the Dolphin team can meaningfully affect Valve here? That's delusional.
  - dathinab 3y ago
    no they can't, and I didn't say so but it's Valve which is blocking them not Nintendo and sure Valve might do so on behest of Nintendo but it's still Valves doing so the idea that Dolphine (or Valve) have to asks Nintendo for anything is just completly absurd and beyond any legal basis which is why Nintendo doesn't use the proper legal methods here IMHO, because then you can dispute it and they can (probably will) lose but as long as Valve plays along there is nothing much Dolphin can do, so again it's Valve who first needs to be convinced before then either Nintendo gives up or you have a proper legal dispute with them anyway like you correctly pointed out there is no way for Dolphin to affect Valve so the is no way for Dolphi on steam
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      Legality is not the issue here. Not everything that is legal can be published on Steam. The people who make it a legal argument after this article are missing the point.
      - shagie 3y ago
        (furthering this point) consider the recent Developer claims Steam is rejecting games with AI-generated artwork -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36522665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36522665 / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520701 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520701 AI art isn't illegal, but Steam still has taken a position of not wanting to be the middleman for distribution of such content.

dathinab 3y ago

> think after careful considerations and consulting lawyers, and doing that more then one time > been worth it to try without the key once. No it would make the situation worse for them, they can publish it _without any WII support at all_. But not just without the key. Trying it without the key would be like saying "we do know it's illegal" instead of "it's clearly covered by DMCA exceptions and related law". Removing the key without removing the whole WII functionality *is the one think they must no do no matter what*.

voxl 3y ago
In what world is placating a business partner an admission of guilt?
- dathinab 3y ago
  in our in many many ways but in this case it wouldn't be a legal admission of guild but it would be propagated as such by Nintendo if there ever is a legal case reducing the odds of winning such an hypothetical case The reason why Dolphin is legal is based on it being mainly a tool for playing old games you own and potentially with mods, accessibility tools and similar. So for Nintendo to win a case they would need to convince the judge that it's mainly meant for illegal copyright infringement. Their argument would likely be on the line of the Wii code without the ability to load legal Wii games is useless and having it would be really strange as you could only use it with illegal copies with the copy protection stripped. And stripping it is always illegal to do. So it would be designed for illegal usage. (And rare new games released that way but they would argue it doesn't matter in the grater picture). I.e. it would be easier for them to win a legal case against Dolphin without it having been an legal admittance of guild.