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The Danger of Popcorn Polymer: Incident at the TPC Group Chemical Plant [video]
- 542458 3y agoAll of the videos on that channel are great - it’s one of my favourites on YouTube. Some of them show horrible accidents ultimately caused by extremely silly process issues (including nobody being responsible for cleaning in a factory, or failure to label the input pipes for a factory, or everybody in charge of monitoring a system skipping out on work). Also, it’s impressive how dramatic the quality increase is between the old videos and the new ones.
- BaseballPhysics 3y agoOr in this case, failure to flush dead leg pipes where popcorn polymer was known to form.
- aaron695 3y ago> extremely silly process issues None of these were silly. It takes an extraordinary amount of hard work and collective intelligence to fix these issues. > failure to label the input pipes for a factory Labels are not the end solution, no one reads labels unless they want something, anyone in IT should know this. (It's a great dark pattern trick) That video was a great example video of "Murphy's law" the engineer principle, not the joke. The problem is the solution, different attachments for different fluids goes against the safety of standardization. I've seen USCSB give advice I would consider incorrect or in question, they suggested locking compound gates. You can be directed to leave them unlocked to allow emergency evacuation in person or by car. I don't know what's better there, but USCSB needed to also address evacuation safety if they make statements like that. This stuff is hard and has to be applied to accidents that have not happened. It's a 'Bullshit jobs' mega-machine. [edit] I have the say the 30 second intro to the "Explosion at the Husky Superior Refinery" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhkzK7jkKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhkzK7jkKg gave me goosebumps.
- sclarisse 3y agoThe brain finds amusement when it detects a discrepancy between expectation and result. https://youtu.be/Tflm9mttAAI https://youtu.be/Tflm9mttAAI I think this one especially is simple enough of an error, and the consequences are so disastrous, that it’s reasonable to find it silly.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- MichaelZuo 3y ago> Labels are not the end solution, no one reads labels unless they want something, anyone in IT should know this. (It's a great dark pattern trick) That's pretty solvable in IT, just assign full responsibility for fixing the problem to whoever messes up via ignoring the labels.
- lazide 3y agoHard when ignoring the labels kills them before they can be punitively assigned the task I guess.
- MichaelZuo 3y agoHence why I said "in IT"? Did you misread my comment? Obviously in a chemical plant this would be futile in a lot of scenarios. And so much more complex proactive measures are the norm.
- lazide 3y agoI guess I did! I thought you were saying it as a way of recommending it outside of IT.
- fdhfdjkfhdkj 3y ago[dead]
- jrockway 3y agoThe one where a box factory blew up because of a chemical safety issue was a real eye opener. Who knew that if you make cardboard boxes, you have to be aware that sometimes municipal water has too much oxygen in it and it will cause your machinery to randomly blow up, destroy the neighborhood, and kill 4 people one day? I had no idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGVbGNdx7g0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGVbGNdx7g0
- creato 3y agoThat’s a pretty charitable summary of the issue of pressure vessel safety. I’m just a hobbyist with tools in my garage and I’ve avoided buying an air compressor for air powered tools because I don’t want to have a pressure vessel to maintain. If I know this, industrial operations definitely should.
- jrockway 3y agoSure, pressure vessel rusts, pressure vessel explodes is pretty understandable, but it's surprising that you need a pressure vessel to make boxes.
- pests 3y agoEh, they needed steam to make the cardboard. Sounds reasonable.
- SkyPuncher 3y agoA lot of the risk scales with size. I have a 2.5 gallon air compressor that does everything I need. Even if it has a blow out, it’s just not large enough to be risky.
- chaosite 3y agoYou're obviously right that the risk scales with size, but I'm still suspicious of pressure cookers. Yeah, it won't destroy the house, but I could still be seriously injured by it if the pressure release valve was clogged and I wasn't paying close enough attention.
- reaperman 3y agoYou may really enjoy this book[1]. Very short chapters with pithy yet conversational analysis of a wide variety of disasters, including things like "pumps were labeled perfectly clearly, but due to one being installed at a later date and other being removed, they were numbered in a line going 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, 6". 0: Earlier edition of same book with awesome cover to get people to understand it's not a super boring textbook at all (in fact it's really not a textbook): http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=83EEA4069C89A895711DEFADAC2EDC81 http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=83EEA4069C89A895711DEFAD... 1: Latest edition: http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=DC1C71A6B692001AA8FAFACA513F1638 http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=DC1C71A6B692001AA8FAFACA...
- flyinghamster 3y agoAmazing videos that make me go ARGH. I remember when a silicone plant blew up in the NW Chicago suburbs, and sure enough they had a video, ready to make me facepalm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j8EprZP4IE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j8EprZP4IE
- this_steve_j 3y agoI would gladly pay federal taxes if more government safety agencies put out high quality streaming content like the USCSB! That said, there is a facepalm moment in each video when you realize the agency has no regulatory authority and can only make recommendations that may or may not translate into voluntary compliance actions.
- icegreentea2 3y agoIt's powerful to have investigative powers not be hard-tied to regulatory powers (see NTSB / FAA... in fact, I believe that was the actual model chosen for USCSB). I'm totally not in the field, so I have no idea how often OSHA/EPA follow up on USCSB recommendations, and if OSHA and EPA's remit are sufficient to be able to enforce/mandate the majority of USCSB recommendations. For example in the video USCSB identifies that TPC had internally recommended and green-lit procedures for flushing out of use lines to prevent popcorn polymer formation, but did not actually implement the action. I know in medical device land, this type of thing (say someone internally recognizes a risk to device safety in the manufacturing process, a mitigation is accepted and greenlit, but never actually implemented) would be subject to both quality audits (so by someone checking up on your ISO status), and potentially as part of FDA follow up audits. I don't know what the situation in this field would be like.
- andrewflnr 3y ago> It's powerful to have investigative powers not be hard-tied to regulatory powers The idea being that they'll have purer incentives to get the truth? And maybe get better cooperation? I'm sensing the outline of how this arrangement is "powerful", but having trouble with the full picture and details. And per your sibling comment, it might still be good to have a formal process for enforcers to have a look at their results...
- ajdlinux 3y ago- they're able to investigate whether the regulators did their job properly in regulating, while being organisationally at least somewhat distant from the regulator they're looking at (obviously they tend to maintain close relationships with the appropriate regulators but at least they're not literally in the same building) - people will be more willing to talk to investigators if they know that their evidence won't be used against them in court or used for a licence suspension - you can grant non-regulatory investigators greater powers to compel testimony and documentary evidence, perhaps even if it's self-incriminating (I can't speak for the US but it's common here in Australia where we don't have a 5th Amendment entrenched guarantee), without running into as many ethical issues as when you give coercive information-gathering powers to regulators - you ban such compelled testimony from being used as evidence in court or in regulatory proceedings - you don't need as high a standard of proof to make an investigatory finding as if you're taking punitive action against a specific individual - the overall purpose of the investigation is aimed at systemic safety, rather than getting a successful prosecution None of this prevents the regulators from running a parallel investigation with the aim of regulatory punishment - and indeed, two sets of independent eyes on complex scenarios is good too.
- aag01 3y agoVery sad time when the trump administration and Republicans wanted to ELIMINATE the USCSB. They do great work.
- osamagirl69 3y agoJust in case anyone else was confused, 'popcorn polymer' refers to a popcorn-like porous polymer that can form in petrochemical processing, not a polymer that forms during popcorn production. I was assuming it was something similar to acrymilide formation in french fry cooking, and very confused how such a process would end up on the USCSB page. Absolutely wonderful video in any case
- twic 3y agoI'm curious about this popcorn polymer. I went looking, and found some papers on how it forms, but no pictures of what it looks like, or videos of it forming. EDIT I looked again and found some tiny pictures: https://www.shilohsciences.com/blog/popcorn-polymer-in-steam-crackers https://www.shilohsciences.com/blog/popcorn-polymer-in-steam... (at the end - this is a great article) https://www.hydrocarbonengineering.com/special-reports/14072021/increased-reliability-in-butadiene-production/ https://www.hydrocarbonengineering.com/special-reports/14072... https://epsc.be/epsc_media/Learning+Sheets/2020/20_05+EPSC+Learning+Sheet+_+Polymerised+pipe-p-1485.pdf https://epsc.be/epsc_media/Learning+Sheets/2020/20_05+EPSC+L...
- lamontcg 3y agoThis comment covers how the popcorn forms and produces localized pressure in a dead leg pipe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36797295 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36797295
- Cthulhu_ 3y agoI thought this would be about this popcorn ceiling that gets mentioned every once in a while. Wasn't that stuff toxic or asbestos or something?
- throwawaymobule 3y agoI think the narrator isn't a CSB employee, and is just hired for these videos. I would be interested in seeing some sort of parody video made about commercial/industrial deep friers. e.g. '2018 Destin Florida McDonald's Fryer Ice Immersion Incident' Could even hire the same animation company.
- dclowd9901 3y agoThe quality of this review is honestly breathtaking. It’s great work, but now I’m left wondering if maybe they should shovel some of their review production budget into hiring more agents
- digdugdirk 3y agoGiven their lack of enforcement powers, this video does far more benefit to their goals. Making workers aware of potential situations like this can help put more pressure on businesses to improve their overall safely standards.
- refurb 3y agoDont discount the reach of well made videos. What’s more likely? A company reading through a 200 page report or watching a 15 min well done video?
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago^ Their reports may have a small audience, but their videos have much more mainstream appeal and raise public awareness. It's a seed that a teenager may watch today, and remember in 10, 20, 50 years when they work at a factory and they're like "Hold up, this is bad because I remember a video I watched back in the day". Public awareness is super important. Plus, the grandparent comment seems to imply it's an either / or; both is good. There's always money for both. You can hire more agents AND keep publishing videos.
- jcreus 3y agoSadly they dropped the new intro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhkzK7jkKg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhkzK7jkKg ) they debuted on the last video, and goes really hard. Don't get me wrong, I love the production value on classic CSB videos too, but they truly went the extra mile there.
- Aloha 3y agoAgreed, I loved the intro.
- roughly 3y agoThat is absolutely _magnificent_
- voxadam 3y agoEven though that into was so comically and excessively American I was sad to see it go.
- slowmotiony 3y agoHoly shit that video has a higher budget than my country's entire years film catalogue
- AndrewOMartin 3y agoThanks for the link, that was so great. I was in such anticipation of a "classic but inaccurate" Bald Eagle scream that I genuinely fist-pumped when it actually happened.
- jefftk 3y ago> "classic but inaccurate" Bald Eagle scream Specifically, a Red-tailed hawk scream. Ex: https://youtu.be/33DWqRyAAUw https://youtu.be/33DWqRyAAUw
- bagels 3y agoSometimes I worry about the job related health problems that come from sitting in a chair all day, but would trade it any day for the horrific injuries that happen every one of these USCSB videos.
- pengaru 3y agoThis channel is one of the few I have bookmarked. In case you ever needed to know why zoning laws are useful and why you would never want to live anywhere near industry, explore their videos.
- snvzz 3y agoThe lack of remote-operated safety valves shocked me the most. Insanity in 2020.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoHow many millions of valves? If the internet goes down?
- sitharus 3y agoWhy would the internet be involved? Remotely operated valves always have manual controls in case of network failure.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoI imagine you would want them on some wires network to reduce EMI noise in these all metal environments.
- evilotto 3y agoremote operated is also remotely vulnerable. https://hackernoon.com/6-major-scada-attacks-that-happened-and-their-consequences https://hackernoon.com/6-major-scada-attacks-that-happened-a...
- userbinator 3y agoIf anyone is curious about the "Butadiene Product Stewardship Guidance Manual" referenced in the video, it's free: https://www.americanchemistry.com/industry-groups/olefins/resources/butadiene-product-stewardship-guidance-manual https://www.americanchemistry.com/industry-groups/olefins/re...
- kazinator 3y agoI watched the whole video, and missed any discussion of obvious safety mechanisms (beside the recommendation for remotely operated isolation valves). How about monitoring mechanisms. Every pipe leg should have a remotely sensed pressure gauge. If there is a significant pressure difference at different ends of a pipe (more than expected of a pressure drop during flow), not explained by a valve being closed in the middle of a pipe, that is a blockage. There must be surely be ways of detecting popcorn polymer buildup without opening the pipe. Some kind of acoustic reflection or whatever. If we can detect a stud behind drywall with a five dollar device, surely we can tell whether there is popcorn polymer inside a pipe?
- rdtsc 3y agoIt seems in this case the pressure would have to be measured in very small section increments. I imagine it's like a clog forming in one particular section that could expand locally, while the rest of the pipe leg might not show an increase in pressure. Maybe just have flow meters to detect dead legs. If a particular pipe section doesn't indicate any flow over some time period, assume it's a hazard condition and raise and alarm. Another idea might be to find an ingredient which doesn't affect the product but will react when polymer forms, such that it can serve as an indicator that somewhere in the system there is a significant amount of polymer formed.
- kazinator 3y agoThere is the question of why does pressure rise that much? It seems that there is no pressure control behind the pumps. So that is to say, they use powerful pumps in some kind of open-loop operation, where the pressure is controlled by the lack of impedance to flow. It's as if, in electronics, we used a power supply with an insanely high unloaded voltage, and then just relied on that voltage dropping to an acceptable level due to system load. Then if the load is too low due to an open circuit, the voltage rises, and fries something that is powered from the same node. Why not control all the pumps so that the maximum pressure that can exist in the system is well within the capacity of the pipes and cisterns, even if everything plugs up.
- nimbius 3y agoHey a story from the USCSB! Fun anecdote the company I worked a few years at was investigated and audited by them. We were handling a lot of polyisobutylene type chemicals and had a few small fires and near misses in the plant. (Its used in diesel detergents.). We reached out to them before anything serious went wrong based on our environmental engineers recommendation Anywho the uscsb did a spectacular job writing up a whole book of protocols and recommendations that made the plant safer and quieter. They even helped coordinate annual response events from the local PD and FD and helped with our annual report to the city.
- cowthulhu 3y agoStuff like that is really heartwarming… org identifies they aren’t safe enough and reaches out to an agency with experience in the area, then the agency coming in and helping make stuff safer instead of just writing a bunch of stuff up, charging some fines, and then leaving.
- samtho 3y agoBuilding inspection is actually like this in my city. If they get a tip about unpermitted work, they just bring the permit application, will waive a few fees so it costs $7.50, and they electronically send it to the office wheee someone approves it immediately. This also enables the owner-builder to request they come by for a pre inspection or for advice. They actually want to keep buildings safe and most of the inspectors were formerly working in the construction industry and hated working with bad inspectors.
- mschuster91 3y agoThat needed some serious political effort to pull off. In many places, fine and fee income is a fixed part of the budget, so it incentivises everyone to optimize for "most amount of fines" instead for "best experience for builders and public safety".
- lostlogin 3y ago
- londons_explore 3y agoI don't fully understand this incident report. A blocked pipe alone doesn't cause it to burst. It has to be combined with something that causes the pressure to increase, like perhaps a breakdown product that produces gasses?
- nxx788 3y agoPopcorn polymer implies, to me at least, a polymer that expands in size like popcorn. I assume that with exposure to oxygen, the product expands into this polymer.
- HybridCurve 3y agoHere is the PDF report from the CSB: https://www.csb.gov/assets/1/17/tpc_factual_update_10-29-2020.pdf https://www.csb.gov/assets/1/17/tpc_factual_update_10-29-202... Bottom of page 7 it explains the mechanism. Essentially butadiene peroxides react with the butadiene to form the polymer 'seed'. The polymer is not stable and expands, increasing in volume.
- jimworm 3y agoWhat are the insurance payouts like when plants like these are destroyed? Could those be manipulated to balance the risk motives for omitting or delaying mitigations when warnings signs appear? Or would that just encourage poor record keeping and falsifications?
- throwawaymobule 3y agoIdeally, they want the plant running as much as possible. I think that's what motivated them to delay mitigations.
- jokoon 3y agoI imagine that in the future, when climate change gets so bad, those types of petro-chemical facilities will become easy target, and seen how complex and dangerous they are, it will be very difficult to keep them safe and functioning.
- unixhero 3y agoI have become a huge fan of this YouTube channel (and agency!), the USCSB.
- jp57 3y agoMany many years ago my dad, with his fresh ChemE degree, was a junior engineer at a chemical plant near Houston. Probably the kind of role that would have been responsible for ensuring that things are working correctly and things like popcorn polymer (or the 1940s equivalent) weren't building up. He found the job so dull that he quit and left the field completely.
- smegsicle 3y agogetting some eliza vibes from the talking head at 6:15