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I think it's really an indictment of (software?) engineer's communication skills. So much of us seem to come from a self-taught/introverted background and ignor

I think it's really an indictment of (software?) engineer's communication skills. So much of us seem to come from a self-taught/introverted background and ignore the importance of clear communication required to work in a team. The "pet peeve" thing in particular I catch myself in regularly, where I realize I didn't actually answer someone's question, instead mapping their meaning to my preferred topic. It's interesting how just listening is a skill. The Communications class I attended early in my career has been incredibly useful.

abathur 3y ago
Spending time in meetings with someone who insists on near-complete terminological clarity from everyone involved ~illuminates just how hard it is to communicate precisely and consistently. (In my case, this person is a CEO who's had past lives in engineering and finance, IIRC.) Setting aside the communication skills of specific engineers, various stakeholders can still have both wildly and subtly different senses of what they mean by common terms. For example, I find there's a fair amount of chaos surrounding very common terms like "product" and "content" that tend to mean different things in different systems and to people in different roles/departments.
- EvanAnderson 3y ago
  I've interacted with government and insurance attorneys for various work gigs and some of them have impressed me with their insistence on clarity, too. I find it challenging and fun to communicate that way, albeit I've only ever done it in small 'doses'. (I'd guess it follows a dose-response relationship that veers off toward madness pretty quickly.) I get a similiar kind of kick from observing people communicating technically and precisely to complete a task-- launching rockets, doing performing surgery, controlling air traffic, etc.
  - onlypositive 3y ago
    Being precise (not vague) with your language is a learned skill. I started practicing is after reading 12 rules for life (it's one of them). It really makes a difference in everyday life. It prevents so many arguments with my wife: we agree on most things, when we don't it's usually because we disagree on the meaning of the words we're using. At work I have far less misunderstandings with coworkers, I understand expectations better and I don't get caught out by people using vague language to hide or gloss over major problems. Last month I was evaluating a contract and it took me a week to get a clear answer about terms. I suspect the people involved subconsciously knew that if they gave a clear answer the contract would be deemed unecessary and cancelled. It was.
    - jahsome 3y ago
      Ugh... I am a very precise communicator, and my wife --- Not so much. I love her dearly, but I cannot count the number of times I have enraged her by asking her to elaborate or seeking clarification about a pronoun or some other vaguery by asking questions she believes "I should know the answer to because I'm too smart not to know" We're getting there, though :)
      - 7thaccount 3y ago
        Lol my wife is the same and it drives me nuts. She will say go get me "x". I'm like where? And then she'll say "the closet" or something like that and I'll have to ask "which closet" and so on.
        BLKNSLVR 3y ago
        (Taking light-hearted commentary too seriously) Something that young children have to grow out of is assuming that "if they know it, their parents must know it too", such as where they put (not hid, because "the parents know") the phone or the keys. As a child they haven't yet developed the, obvious once developed, concept of the individuality of knowledge and experience. It does feel as if this regresses for long-term partners. The volume of shared experience must blur the boundaries of individual experience, or something. My wife will often blurt out something totally incomprehensible to anyone but her, but since she's spent the previous 5-10 minutes reading / watching all the context leading up to it, she expects the rest of us (who may have only just strolled into the room) to know it to its core. A punchline without context is nothing! I do like the sideways glances my kids give me when it happens though. That's a shared understanding :)
        brightlancer 3y ago
        I've known lots of intelligent adults who assumed their particular knowledge was common knowledge. Most were polite about it and realized their mistake; a few were quite obnoxious and learned nothing. Anecdotally, I wonder if/ to what degree this has been affected by increased job specialization, where a person who spends all day working (and perhaps socializing after) with folks who share their particular knowledge and jargon will then err when interacting with folks outside of that bubble.
- TylerE 3y ago
  "portal" is a good one. Depending on the speaker it can mean an entire website, or a single link, or just about anything in between.
  - IggleSniggle 3y ago
    Or a very specific iframe-like HTML tag! <portal> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/po https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/po...
- tracker1 3y ago
  Similarly, how many people in meetings won't actually speak up if they aren't familiar with a term or acronym in context. I'm often surprised when I ask, and then several others mention they weren't sure either.
stevage 3y ago
Listening is a skill, but understanding is the bigger one. Actually being able to fit someone else's ideas into a bigger framework, finding points of similarity and conflict is super challenging, and not really taught in engineering.
slackstation 3y ago
Cannot agree more. Communication shouldn't be a specialized skill like writing code or designing bridges. It's a universal that is accessible to everyone and should be taught to everyone. It's exactly why colleges have general education. If someone finds that their team keeps getting in trouble or failing due to mis-communication as a pattern, then something deeper is wrong.
Daub 3y ago
From the other side of the water, as an art teacher, I can say that I really appreciate the precision of computer/software engineers. Artists/designers can be so 'fuzzy', so 'hand wavey' and so prone to mystification and grandification. I will never forget attending an science/art symposium where the guest speaker was an artist. I quote them verbatim: 'Art can exist without science, but what happens if science tries to exist without art? Hiroshima!' Never in my life have I felt so ashamed of being an artist.
Spooky23 3y ago
We specifically don’t educate engineers in writing or analysis, and high school preparation varies a lot. I dual majored CS and History. Computer Science got me in the door and provided core skillsets, but reading and writing, analysis skills really made me a better and more effective person.

abathur 3y ago

Spending time in meetings with someone who insists on near-complete terminological clarity from everyone involved ~illuminates just how hard it is to communicate precisely and consistently. (In my case, this person is a CEO who's had past lives in engineering and finance, IIRC.) Setting aside the communication skills of specific engineers, various stakeholders can still have both wildly and subtly different senses of what they mean by common terms. For example, I find there's a fair amount of chaos surrounding very common terms like "product" and "content" that tend to mean different things in different systems and to people in different roles/departments.

EvanAnderson 3y ago
I've interacted with government and insurance attorneys for various work gigs and some of them have impressed me with their insistence on clarity, too. I find it challenging and fun to communicate that way, albeit I've only ever done it in small 'doses'. (I'd guess it follows a dose-response relationship that veers off toward madness pretty quickly.) I get a similiar kind of kick from observing people communicating technically and precisely to complete a task-- launching rockets, doing performing surgery, controlling air traffic, etc.
- onlypositive 3y ago
  Being precise (not vague) with your language is a learned skill. I started practicing is after reading 12 rules for life (it's one of them). It really makes a difference in everyday life. It prevents so many arguments with my wife: we agree on most things, when we don't it's usually because we disagree on the meaning of the words we're using. At work I have far less misunderstandings with coworkers, I understand expectations better and I don't get caught out by people using vague language to hide or gloss over major problems. Last month I was evaluating a contract and it took me a week to get a clear answer about terms. I suspect the people involved subconsciously knew that if they gave a clear answer the contract would be deemed unecessary and cancelled. It was.
  - jahsome 3y ago
    Ugh... I am a very precise communicator, and my wife --- Not so much. I love her dearly, but I cannot count the number of times I have enraged her by asking her to elaborate or seeking clarification about a pronoun or some other vaguery by asking questions she believes "I should know the answer to because I'm too smart not to know" We're getting there, though :)
    - 7thaccount 3y ago
      Lol my wife is the same and it drives me nuts. She will say go get me "x". I'm like where? And then she'll say "the closet" or something like that and I'll have to ask "which closet" and so on.
      - BLKNSLVR 3y ago
        (Taking light-hearted commentary too seriously) Something that young children have to grow out of is assuming that "if they know it, their parents must know it too", such as where they put (not hid, because "the parents know") the phone or the keys. As a child they haven't yet developed the, obvious once developed, concept of the individuality of knowledge and experience. It does feel as if this regresses for long-term partners. The volume of shared experience must blur the boundaries of individual experience, or something. My wife will often blurt out something totally incomprehensible to anyone but her, but since she's spent the previous 5-10 minutes reading / watching all the context leading up to it, she expects the rest of us (who may have only just strolled into the room) to know it to its core. A punchline without context is nothing! I do like the sideways glances my kids give me when it happens though. That's a shared understanding :)
        brightlancer 3y ago
        I've known lots of intelligent adults who assumed their particular knowledge was common knowledge. Most were polite about it and realized their mistake; a few were quite obnoxious and learned nothing. Anecdotally, I wonder if/ to what degree this has been affected by increased job specialization, where a person who spends all day working (and perhaps socializing after) with folks who share their particular knowledge and jargon will then err when interacting with folks outside of that bubble.
TylerE 3y ago
"portal" is a good one. Depending on the speaker it can mean an entire website, or a single link, or just about anything in between.
- IggleSniggle 3y ago
  Or a very specific iframe-like HTML tag! <portal> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/po https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/po...
tracker1 3y ago
Similarly, how many people in meetings won't actually speak up if they aren't familiar with a term or acronym in context. I'm often surprised when I ask, and then several others mention they weren't sure either.

stevage 3y ago

Listening is a skill, but understanding is the bigger one. Actually being able to fit someone else's ideas into a bigger framework, finding points of similarity and conflict is super challenging, and not really taught in engineering.

slackstation 3y ago

Cannot agree more. Communication shouldn't be a specialized skill like writing code or designing bridges. It's a universal that is accessible to everyone and should be taught to everyone. It's exactly why colleges have general education. If someone finds that their team keeps getting in trouble or failing due to mis-communication as a pattern, then something deeper is wrong.

Daub 3y ago

From the other side of the water, as an art teacher, I can say that I really appreciate the precision of computer/software engineers. Artists/designers can be so 'fuzzy', so 'hand wavey' and so prone to mystification and grandification. I will never forget attending an science/art symposium where the guest speaker was an artist. I quote them verbatim: 'Art can exist without science, but what happens if science tries to exist without art? Hiroshima!' Never in my life have I felt so ashamed of being an artist.

Spooky23 3y ago

We specifically don’t educate engineers in writing or analysis, and high school preparation varies a lot. I dual majored CS and History. Computer Science got me in the door and provided core skillsets, but reading and writing, analysis skills really made me a better and more effective person.