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This is modern science. This is our tax dollars. And this is at the highest levels.
by nerdchum 3y ago
This is modern science. This is our tax dollars. And this is at the highest levels.
- tptacek 3y agoThe optimal amount of scientific misconduct is not zero.
- its_ethan 3y agoCare to elaborate on why you think it's optimal to have a non-zero amount of fake data supporting scientific claims?
- tptacek 3y agoBecause the only way to get zero misconduct is to drastically reduce the amount of science that is done, probably by orders of magnitude. This is an old saw when talking about government waste: the optimal amount of waste isn't zero, because there are diminishing returns to pursuing waste, and at some point the losses you avoid by eliminating waste are swamped by the costs of eliminating it. It doesn't follow that waste and misconduct are good, only that when we talk about policy responses to scandals, we should consider the costs involved in avoiding those scandals, and whether it's rational to pay those costs. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
- Brusco_RF 3y agoI am somewhat mind-blown by that government waste adage. While I supposed that in some technical sense it could be true, I would like to have a blunt conversation with anyone who believes government waste is anywhere near parity with the costs of trying to eliminate government waste
- tptacek 3y agoThe logic of the statement, which is pretty hard to dispute, doesn't establish that the current amount of waste in any given program is or isn't optimal, only that the optimal level isn't zero.
- pgodzin 3y agoNo one is saying the current level of government waste is optimal and not worth the cost to eliminate. Just that if you have eliminated 99%, the extra 1% may not be worth it.
- Brusco_RF 3y agoI'd like to cross that bridge when we get there :)
- nerdchum 3y agoCompletely agreed. The best solution to eliminate government waste is to eliminate the part of the government creating the waste.
- taeric 3y agoThe usual framing is that the optimal amount of X is the point where it is just below the cost of preventing X. So, if it costs millions of dollars to pursue fraud, you would still be better with allowing thousands of dollars to go.
- btheshoe 3y agoso based. But I do have to say that when the president of one of your top institutions resigns over misconduct, the level of misconduct is probably a fair amount over optimal. And speaking with my friends in, eg, alzheimer's research, the fraud and inability to trust the veracity of unreplicated results does really slow down work in the field.
- nerdchum 3y agoThe optimal amount of my tax dollars going into government funded science is zero. Scientists need to earn their money like the rest of the world.
- tptacek 3y agoI'm sure there's a country you could immigrate to where the political consensus is that no basic research of any sort should happen, but the country we're talking about has the opposite consensus. Put differently: is there an argument you could make here that would be persuasive to someone other than an ancap?
- nerdchum 3y agoI don't think that America has a consensus on this at all. Numerous people I talk to think science should be privatized. And if more people were aware of the corruption that goes on in science the pendulum would quickly swing.
- tptacek 3y agoWhat Tobias said about the NeverNudes applies.
- nerdchum 3y agoReality has a way of asserting itself. https://www.usdebtclock.org/ https://www.usdebtclock.org/
- gilbetron 3y agoAre you implying that private agencies have less corruption than public ones? It's fascinating how jarring that is with my life experience. Before you answer, remember, Stanford is a private institution.
- medvezhenok 3y agoSure. Then please refrain from using anything that was invented/developed from government funding. Including the internet.
- carpet_wheel 3y agoWhat kind of weak cop out is this? It's the president of the school, not some miscreant child. Pathetic.
- JohnMakin 3y agoThis is a private university.
- dboreham 3y agoNot spending any public funds?
- panarky 3y agoAnd the alleged misconduct happened before he joined the university.
- thrawa8387336 3y agoAnd? It's still an epic failure
- algoatecorn 3y agoYour statement means nothing. Look up how much money Stanford receives through NSF, NIH, DoD, etc.
- BeetleB 3y agoWhich likely gets most of its research funds from government grants. Concretely - over 70% come from the federal government: https://facts.stanford.edu/research/ https://facts.stanford.edu/research/
- tptacek 3y agoThousands of them at any given time, of which we've had news reporting on single digit numbers from years ago. You should now update your priors.
- localhost 3y agoMany of the research grants are funded from public tax dollars
- phone8675309 3y agoPrivate university doesn't mean that public grant money isn't used in research grants.
- renegade-otter 3y agoSo, what is the solution? Fire all scientists? Close down all university research labs? And then when will that "saved" money go? A high-speed rail? I don't think so. A tax cut for private jet owners? Probably: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/18/melanie-darrigo/tax-code-offers-write-offs-some-private-plane-purc/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/18/melanie-da... With zero spending, there will be zero waste and corruption. I will create zero bugs if I write zero code. Just like VCs expect a tremendous amount of waste when going for wealth appreciation, so should countries expect waste when investing in science, research, and innovation. There will be waste, there will be fraud, but the options are either play the game or be left in the Middle Ages. In the same fashion, let's have innocent children go hungry because some adults abuse social programs. Let's stop all military R&D because some contractors are overcharging.
- axus 3y agoReward boring and interesting results equally? Finance more independent attempts to reproduce interesting results?
- elcritch 3y agoStop trying to "business-fy" research. The demand and drive to make research more efficient and business like hurts the point of academic research. It's similar to how the theory in business itself that the singular goal of public companies is to "increase shareholder value". Academic success can't be linked to just the number of papers produced or cited. Western cultures needs to go back to embracing plain old hard work and that business, research, etc all require difficult work and reflection at the top levels to function best.
- nerdchum 3y agoI'm completely fine with academic success not being linked to any sort of outcome or result or increase in value to society. I just don't want them use my tax dollars to do it.
- mepian 3y agoScientific misconduct is not a particularly "modern" phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man