5 ms·

One assumption this skips over is that it's okay to put athletes on the field with ligaments 6 times stronger than human baseline. Of course this is a phenomen

by TOMDM 3y ago

One assumption this skips over is that it's okay to put athletes on the field with ligaments 6 times stronger than human baseline. Of course this is a phenomenal treatment assuming it works as planned, but isn't there a performance enhancement angle that needs to be considered for it's inclusion in professional sports?

swarnie 3y ago
The Enhanced Games will be stoked for this.
- chongli 3y ago
  Like the old SNL sketch: The All-Drug Olympics!
williamdclt 3y ago
I'm okay with dealing with this problem when it comes, I definitely do not consider it a good reason to slow down medical progress. I'd rather sport adapts to medical progress, not the other way around!
- midoridensha 3y ago
  The inverse of your position would mean that athletes would be forbidden from ever having surgery, including for sports injuries. Taken to an extreme, athletes should be forbidden from having any kind of medicine: vaccines, bandages, antibiotic ointments for cuts, etc.
hef19898 3y ago
I don't think so, the tendons make the knee potentially more stable, the performance so comes from the muscles. And it requires surgery, usually that kind of surgery is hard on the body, and requires extensive physio therapy and training afterwards. So, the kangaroo tendons are potentially better than traditional implants, the question you pose so is whether or not they are better than the original, human ones. And I somehow doubt that, but I am just a semi-engineer with a ruptured, but still working, knee and not a physician.
- TOMDM 3y ago
  That's my thinking too, but I am left wondering if athletes with this implant will be able to pull riskier corners knowing that their knees are unlikely to give this time. I look forward to finding out either way
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- throw1234651234 3y ago
  This surgery has a very long recovery time. The ligaments are just part of the story, the bigger risk is the cartilage in the joint - if it tears, good luck, we have nothing to fix it. Expensive stem cell therapy maybe kind of works. CPM (continuous passive motion) sort of works over years, and then there are the cripple-you-for-life titanium joint replacements surgeries. In short, this is far, far from being a concern, as cartilage will fail even if the ligament can take it. Similar issue as steroid-user muscle growth outpacing tendonds. Medicine can't repair anything. I will repeat this for the 1000th time, if you think we have tech realize that we - can't fix an artery, re-attach a nail to the nail bed, fix some crystals on teeth (enamel), regrow hair, etc, let alone re-attach a nerve (though we do bypasses now). Basically, people way overestimate the reality of what they can do when they hear 3d organ printing myths.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Recovery is indeed long: my surgeon, who specializes in this stuff and treats professional soccer players as well, talkes about a year until a potential return to normal training and 6 months until being able to run in non-straight lines... Well, for now it seems I can get away without suregery (we'll see what skiing this winter has to say), but it is nothing an athlete would do, loosing a year of training will not be worth it, on fact it can and does mean the end of a career.
- pmontra 3y ago
  I wonder if human muscles can pull those stronger tendons as they should to walk and run normally. Probably the surgeons can weaken them a bit before the implant.
kingkongjaffa 3y ago
I for one welcome tendons of a kangaroo, teeth of a beaver, arms of a gorilla. viva la meta-human!
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  Good luck getting dates!
Brendinooo 3y ago
It becomes a problem if your post-college Tommy John requires you to get a kangaroo tendon to be competitive in MLB. Not sure how you solve that problem in a fair and repeatable way though.
jpeloquin 3y ago
Across species, tendon strength is strongly correlated with modulus (normalized stiffness). Greater stiffness has the risk of reducing range of motion. When a graft is used it is intended/hoped that the graft will remodel over time to become more similar to the original tendon's properties, which match what the entire organ system needs to function properly. Nor does a stronger graft mean that the connection between the graft and the bone will be 6× stronger. 6× stronger might also be optimistic; prior work suggests more like 2× stronger and stiffer. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23599401/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23599401/
matwood 3y ago
> One assumption this skips over is that it's okay to put athletes on the field with ligaments 6 times stronger than human baseline. I would love this, if only so I have less chance of going through a fix again. I received a patellagraph to fix a torn ACL, and the rehab is what makes it such a PITA. It took 9ish months to be cleared for sports again, and I didn't feel confident in my knee until 18 months or so.

by TOMDM 3y ago

swarnie 3y ago

The Enhanced Games will be stoked for this.

chongli 3y ago
Like the old SNL sketch: The All-Drug Olympics!

williamdclt 3y ago

I'm okay with dealing with this problem when it comes, I definitely do not consider it a good reason to slow down medical progress. I'd rather sport adapts to medical progress, not the other way around!

midoridensha 3y ago
The inverse of your position would mean that athletes would be forbidden from ever having surgery, including for sports injuries. Taken to an extreme, athletes should be forbidden from having any kind of medicine: vaccines, bandages, antibiotic ointments for cuts, etc.

hef19898 3y ago

I don't think so, the tendons make the knee potentially more stable, the performance so comes from the muscles. And it requires surgery, usually that kind of surgery is hard on the body, and requires extensive physio therapy and training afterwards. So, the kangaroo tendons are potentially better than traditional implants, the question you pose so is whether or not they are better than the original, human ones. And I somehow doubt that, but I am just a semi-engineer with a ruptured, but still working, knee and not a physician.

TOMDM 3y ago
That's my thinking too, but I am left wondering if athletes with this implant will be able to pull riskier corners knowing that their knees are unlikely to give this time. I look forward to finding out either way
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
throw1234651234 3y ago
This surgery has a very long recovery time. The ligaments are just part of the story, the bigger risk is the cartilage in the joint - if it tears, good luck, we have nothing to fix it. Expensive stem cell therapy maybe kind of works. CPM (continuous passive motion) sort of works over years, and then there are the cripple-you-for-life titanium joint replacements surgeries. In short, this is far, far from being a concern, as cartilage will fail even if the ligament can take it. Similar issue as steroid-user muscle growth outpacing tendonds. Medicine can't repair anything. I will repeat this for the 1000th time, if you think we have tech realize that we - can't fix an artery, re-attach a nail to the nail bed, fix some crystals on teeth (enamel), regrow hair, etc, let alone re-attach a nerve (though we do bypasses now). Basically, people way overestimate the reality of what they can do when they hear 3d organ printing myths.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Recovery is indeed long: my surgeon, who specializes in this stuff and treats professional soccer players as well, talkes about a year until a potential return to normal training and 6 months until being able to run in non-straight lines... Well, for now it seems I can get away without suregery (we'll see what skiing this winter has to say), but it is nothing an athlete would do, loosing a year of training will not be worth it, on fact it can and does mean the end of a career.
pmontra 3y ago
I wonder if human muscles can pull those stronger tendons as they should to walk and run normally. Probably the surgeons can weaken them a bit before the implant.

kingkongjaffa 3y ago

I for one welcome tendons of a kangaroo, teeth of a beaver, arms of a gorilla. viva la meta-human!

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
Good luck getting dates!

Brendinooo 3y ago

It becomes a problem if your post-college Tommy John requires you to get a kangaroo tendon to be competitive in MLB. Not sure how you solve that problem in a fair and repeatable way though.

jpeloquin 3y ago

Across species, tendon strength is strongly correlated with modulus (normalized stiffness). Greater stiffness has the risk of reducing range of motion. When a graft is used it is intended/hoped that the graft will remodel over time to become more similar to the original tendon's properties, which match what the entire organ system needs to function properly. Nor does a stronger graft mean that the connection between the graft and the bone will be 6× stronger. 6× stronger might also be optimistic; prior work suggests more like 2× stronger and stiffer. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23599401/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23599401/

matwood 3y ago

> One assumption this skips over is that it's okay to put athletes on the field with ligaments 6 times stronger than human baseline. I would love this, if only so I have less chance of going through a fix again. I received a patellagraph to fix a torn ACL, and the rehab is what makes it such a PITA. It took 9ish months to be cleared for sports again, and I didn't feel confident in my knee until 18 months or so.