5 ms·

Jeez man. Everyone keeps bashing on Microsoft for this shit. Have they seen Google, Amazon, etc?

jjcon 3y ago
Apple is the worst of the bunch imo. My personal ranking for worst antitrust offenders would be: 1) Apple 2) Amazon 3) Google 4) Microsoft Internationally that may be slightly different though. I’d also maybe include meta for their oculus purchase but I think they’ve tied it into their core, “social” business well enough that I’m not very concerned at the moment when there are bigger fish to fry.
- eitland 3y ago
  Nope. Google. They are on their way to corner the browser market. They've already killed Operas Presto and about every other engine except research engines and Firefox. Chrome and the way they pushed it with ads on the front page of Google [1]. The way Calendar and YouTube again and again has issues with Firefox. Or how some things just doesn't work in anything except Chrome - but hey, if you change how the browser identifies itself, suddenly other browsers work too. [1]: no one else, even disaster relief I thinkhas been allowed a spot there. The market value of weeks in that spot must be billions.
  - theonlybutlet 3y ago
    The get out jail free card is that the engine is open source chromium, not actually held by Google. Others are free to use it.
    - skinkestek 3y ago
      Seeing that they already nerfed ad blocking possibilities in Chromium before completely killing Firefox, what do you think they will do once it is completely gone? Those who use Chromium - either end users or browser creators who build on Chromium - are dependent on the whims of Google.
      - AlchemistCamp 3y ago
        On this timeline, “completely killing Firefox” never happened. I used Chrome for a few years, but FF has been my primary browser since 2014.
      - LegitShady 3y ago
        Firefox zombie here, never noticed it dying. Firefoxs problems are generally things Mozilla does to itself.
  - anonymousDan 3y ago
    I use Brave and I think it is great fwiw.
- tonyedgecombe 3y ago
  >Apple is the worst of the bunch imo. Not if you look at their respective market share.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Apple owns the majority mobile US market share. It's basically a monopoly.
    - esarbe 3y ago
      It's part of an oligopoly. Let's treat oligopolies the same as monopolies, because they behave almost the same.
    - freilanzer 3y ago
      57% ios vs 42% android.
    - ralfn 3y ago
      But that's not the case in the EU. They are more likely to come after Google. And the US government has issues coming after monopolies that are US based and bring a lot of money in (for obvious reasons). If the US starts regulating these companies more it would harm the US GDP. At least in the short term. There is an argument to be had that it could make the markets more competitive in the long term but without a lot of credible threats from outside of the US why take the hit and the risk?
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      65% is not a monopoly. In fact, we have a real judge that dismissed that argument in the Epic vs Apple case
- seydor 3y ago
  Apple's share in the EU is actually small, so it's up to the US to break their monopoly .
- thefz 3y ago
  > Apple is the worst of the bunch imo. What really irritates me is that they are the worst in most cases yet they PR themselves out of this. They sell themselves as the customer-privacy focused, environmentally conscious, smart and young company except that in reality it's exactly the opposite and they apply the most vile corporate tactics ever know to man. Hell, they even invented some.
kwanbix 3y ago
I also don't understand what they expect. That Microsoft bundles google meet? amazon chime? Slack?
- justinclift 3y ago
  For MS to stop using it's overwhelmingly dominant position on desktops (Office) to take out it's competitors in online communications (Slack, Zoom, etc).
  - kwanbix 3y ago
    Are you forced to use it? I certainly don't use it. I was able to remove it from Windows without any problems. You don't like it? you can use Linux or buy a Mac. There are very credible alternatives today. Edge is bundled with Windows and Chrome still has 80% of the market or more. I still don't see the problem.
    - justinclift 3y ago
      What seems to happen in enterprises is they install Office 365... and Teams comes along. A few months later the repeated suggestion of "Why don't you all switch to Teams?" from the MS account rep seems to sink in. At that point the $0 price tag (when bundled with Enterprise 365) gets compared to Slack's fairly expensive per-user pricing... and it's Goodbye Slack. So, the bundle gets it in the door (where no other competitor could) and the free pricing / sales channel gets it adopted.
      - kwanbix 3y ago
        The problem is that Slack wants to charge for a Chat app the same amount that Microsoft or Google charge for Spreadsheet, Documents, Slides, Chat, Drive, etc. The problem is that Slack is too expensive for what they do. If Slacks value proposition was as good as their price ask, that wouldn't happen, or would be much lesser. You said it yourself: Slack is fairly expensive for what they do.
politelemon 3y ago
Apple, Google, Tesla etc seem to have mastered the art of regulatory dodgeball through observational experience and a successful series of pr campaigns of brand identity. There's no better evidence than HN itself where it's common practice to defend these companies for the analogous actions. That same perception is why I think ms tends to be under scrutiny, as it should, but others don't. It's a real shame.
- ralfd 3y ago
  Apple and Tesla don’t have a monopoly. But the eye of Sauron gazes on Apple too (eg they are forced to end their Lightning connector). As is Google: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_3207 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_...
  - account42 3y ago
    Oh no, poor little Apple has to play nice with the other kids.
throwaway33608 3y ago
So the only competition left in tech is about which one of the monopolies is the worst? :) It was kind of bizarre realizing all the promises from Silicon Valley about a better world materialized into a monopolistic rent seeking surveillance adtech, basically. Personally, 10 years ago I was still breathing the "let's change the world" -ethos. The world got changed alright, for much worse. Let's hope EU brings some sanity back into the market.
pgeorgi 3y ago
These find a few unrelated cases, but the interesting bits tend to come first: EU v. Google: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Alphabet%22%20or%20%22Google%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Alph... EU v. Amazon: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Amazon%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Amaz... EU v. Facebook: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22facebook%22%20or%20%22meta%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22face... EU v. Apple: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22apple%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22appl... ...
seydor 3y ago
indeed, but it's a good start
tacticus 3y ago
The offense is using market control in one section to control another market. Windows being tied to AD only was the offense. Windows being tied to IE was the offense. Google being the place you buy ad services from, and the auction house that places them and the service a website owner sells ad space to. is the offense.

Apple is the worst of the bunch imo. My personal ranking for worst antitrust offenders would be: 1) Apple 2) Amazon 3) Google 4) Microsoft Internationally that may be slightly different though. I’d also maybe include meta for their oculus purchase but I think they’ve tied it into their core, “social” business well enough that I’m not very concerned at the moment when there are bigger fish to fry.

eitland 3y ago
Nope. Google. They are on their way to corner the browser market. They've already killed Operas Presto and about every other engine except research engines and Firefox. Chrome and the way they pushed it with ads on the front page of Google [1]. The way Calendar and YouTube again and again has issues with Firefox. Or how some things just doesn't work in anything except Chrome - but hey, if you change how the browser identifies itself, suddenly other browsers work too. [1]: no one else, even disaster relief I thinkhas been allowed a spot there. The market value of weeks in that spot must be billions.
- theonlybutlet 3y ago
  The get out jail free card is that the engine is open source chromium, not actually held by Google. Others are free to use it.
  - skinkestek 3y ago
    Seeing that they already nerfed ad blocking possibilities in Chromium before completely killing Firefox, what do you think they will do once it is completely gone? Those who use Chromium - either end users or browser creators who build on Chromium - are dependent on the whims of Google.
    - AlchemistCamp 3y ago
      On this timeline, “completely killing Firefox” never happened. I used Chrome for a few years, but FF has been my primary browser since 2014.
    - LegitShady 3y ago
      Firefox zombie here, never noticed it dying. Firefoxs problems are generally things Mozilla does to itself.
- anonymousDan 3y ago
  I use Brave and I think it is great fwiw.
tonyedgecombe 3y ago
>Apple is the worst of the bunch imo. Not if you look at their respective market share.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Apple owns the majority mobile US market share. It's basically a monopoly.
  - esarbe 3y ago
    It's part of an oligopoly. Let's treat oligopolies the same as monopolies, because they behave almost the same.
  - freilanzer 3y ago
    57% ios vs 42% android.
  - ralfn 3y ago
    But that's not the case in the EU. They are more likely to come after Google. And the US government has issues coming after monopolies that are US based and bring a lot of money in (for obvious reasons). If the US starts regulating these companies more it would harm the US GDP. At least in the short term. There is an argument to be had that it could make the markets more competitive in the long term but without a lot of credible threats from outside of the US why take the hit and the risk?
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    65% is not a monopoly. In fact, we have a real judge that dismissed that argument in the Epic vs Apple case
seydor 3y ago
Apple's share in the EU is actually small, so it's up to the US to break their monopoly .
thefz 3y ago
> Apple is the worst of the bunch imo. What really irritates me is that they are the worst in most cases yet they PR themselves out of this. They sell themselves as the customer-privacy focused, environmentally conscious, smart and young company except that in reality it's exactly the opposite and they apply the most vile corporate tactics ever know to man. Hell, they even invented some.

kwanbix 3y ago

I also don't understand what they expect. That Microsoft bundles google meet? amazon chime? Slack?

justinclift 3y ago
For MS to stop using it's overwhelmingly dominant position on desktops (Office) to take out it's competitors in online communications (Slack, Zoom, etc).
- kwanbix 3y ago
  Are you forced to use it? I certainly don't use it. I was able to remove it from Windows without any problems. You don't like it? you can use Linux or buy a Mac. There are very credible alternatives today. Edge is bundled with Windows and Chrome still has 80% of the market or more. I still don't see the problem.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    What seems to happen in enterprises is they install Office 365... and Teams comes along. A few months later the repeated suggestion of "Why don't you all switch to Teams?" from the MS account rep seems to sink in. At that point the $0 price tag (when bundled with Enterprise 365) gets compared to Slack's fairly expensive per-user pricing... and it's Goodbye Slack. So, the bundle gets it in the door (where no other competitor could) and the free pricing / sales channel gets it adopted.
    - kwanbix 3y ago
      The problem is that Slack wants to charge for a Chat app the same amount that Microsoft or Google charge for Spreadsheet, Documents, Slides, Chat, Drive, etc. The problem is that Slack is too expensive for what they do. If Slacks value proposition was as good as their price ask, that wouldn't happen, or would be much lesser. You said it yourself: Slack is fairly expensive for what they do.

politelemon 3y ago

Apple, Google, Tesla etc seem to have mastered the art of regulatory dodgeball through observational experience and a successful series of pr campaigns of brand identity. There's no better evidence than HN itself where it's common practice to defend these companies for the analogous actions. That same perception is why I think ms tends to be under scrutiny, as it should, but others don't. It's a real shame.

ralfd 3y ago
Apple and Tesla don’t have a monopoly. But the eye of Sauron gazes on Apple too (eg they are forced to end their Lightning connector). As is Google: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_3207 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_...
- account42 3y ago
  Oh no, poor little Apple has to play nice with the other kids.

throwaway33608 3y ago

So the only competition left in tech is about which one of the monopolies is the worst? :) It was kind of bizarre realizing all the promises from Silicon Valley about a better world materialized into a monopolistic rent seeking surveillance adtech, basically. Personally, 10 years ago I was still breathing the "let's change the world" -ethos. The world got changed alright, for much worse. Let's hope EU brings some sanity back into the market.

pgeorgi 3y ago

These find a few unrelated cases, but the interesting bits tend to come first: EU v. Google: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Alphabet%22%20or%20%22Google%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Alph... EU v. Amazon: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Amazon%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22Amaz... EU v. Facebook: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22facebook%22%20or%20%22meta%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22face... EU v. Apple: https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22apple%22&caseInstrument=AT&caseLegalBasisAT=~3,~4&sortField=relevance&sortOrder=DESC https://competition-cases.ec.europa.eu/search?search=%22appl... ...

seydor 3y ago

indeed, but it's a good start

tacticus 3y ago

The offense is using market control in one section to control another market. Windows being tied to AD only was the offense. Windows being tied to IE was the offense. Google being the place you buy ad services from, and the auction house that places them and the service a website owner sells ad space to. is the offense.