6 ms·

How things can go down on HN strikes me as odd, and this seems to be an example. "People" suddenly seem to be quite supportive of: 1) Has not released an alpha

by Tozen 3y ago

How things can go down on HN strikes me as odd, and this seems to be an example. "People" suddenly seem to be quite supportive of: 1) Has not released an alpha yet and after a year. 2) Website that promises a lot (like 2-way C++ interoperability). 3) Clearly telling people it will have trouble supporting the Windows OS. 4) Has relatively limited stars and contributors on GitHub. 5) Wishlists and promises are suddenly fine by them. Then for other languages its media blackout, hate, and an avalanche of trolling. I suppose the hidden machinery and utility accounts don't come out, unless "they" perceive an actual threat to its position. Don't get me wrong, love new languages and seeing more competition. People should follow their dreams. Just weirds me out, as to how reactions and perception goes.

pertymcpert 3y ago
It seems to be a coin flip. Whichever comment gets upvoted early on continues to be upvoted and becomes the consensus.
aetimmes 3y ago
Communities aren't monoliths. The groups of people who criticize real tangible languages and people who have the skills to critique the design of abstract language design don't necessarily overlap.
mbStavola 3y ago
People were rightfully critical of V for over promising and under delivering as well as misrepresenting the capabilities of the language. Val has promised a lot and hasn't delivered anything, so I think it's fine to be interested/ excited but have a heavy dose of scepticism as well.
- Tozen 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - 1732050 3y ago
    The Vlang creator's initial misrepresentation of the language and their very problematic and hostile handling of any questions regarding the design of their language means, for me, I will never use it and don't consider it a serious language.
    - Tozen 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - 1732050 3y ago
        [flagged]
- pepa65 3y ago
  It seems V is now delivering quite well.
  - Tozen 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - beepbopbeep 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - amedvednikov 3y ago
        > the creator of V had a clear and obvious pattern of overpromising and overhyping things early on can you please list any examples here?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Tozen 3y ago
        [flagged]
        beepbopbeep 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - super_flanker 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - amedvednikov 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - 3y ago
- amedvednikov 3y ago
  Can you please list here examples of under delivering and misrepresenting?
  - bheadmaster 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - amedvednikov 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - super_flanker 3y ago
        [flagged]
        amedvednikov 3y ago
        This is not the main site (vlang.io). Such claim was never made there. The OP mentioned that it "was on the list of 'features' for a long time". The HN comment you referenced is from 2019. I was very anti-GC back then, that's why I didn't want to have a GC, but a model similar to Rust. After playing with GC, I realized it worked really well with V, and offered a better performance. There's an article about these decisions on V's blog. They can change over years, you know. If a project leader changes their mind on a technical decision over years and explains the reasons, that doesn't make them a liar. The end goal is having good performance, flexible memory management, minimal resource usage.
        bheadmaster 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - mbStavola 3y ago
    As you're well aware, there were a series of articles written about this[0][1] which were popular on HN a few years back. This is well documented, reproducible, and done in good faith. Now, I just want to make it clear that my exact wording here was "people were rightfully critical of V" and not "people are rightfully critical of V" (emphasis added). My intent is not to malign the current state of V, because 1) I do not keep up with the language and 2) it isn't relevant to the point being made. The parent comment was drawing a comparison between "other languages" (which, by now, it's apparent that they're speaking primarily about V) and Val when it comes to HN's reaction. If we're going to compare, it only makes sense to compare them at similar stages of development / release. So, in this case we're talking about early release V and what was promised versus delivered. It does not matter what is being done in service of users now because the criticism I'm referring to isn't from now, but when the initial HN impressions of V were formed. [0]: https://xeiaso.net/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 https://xeiaso.net/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 [1]: https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17 https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17
sixthDot 3y ago
> Then for other languages its media blackout, hate, and an avalanche of trolling [...] > Just weirds me out, as to how reactions and perception goes. The prog lang world is a massive circle jerk, with plenty of toxicity, extreme fanboy-ism and haters.
- Tozen 3y ago
  Hard to argue against the truth or the reality of it.
ben-schaaf 3y ago
This seems like a kneejerk reaction to the topmost comment not being critical. There's plenty of critique and skepticism if you read past the top, be it the name, parts of the docs, whether their mutable value semantics work, etc.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 3y ago
Being supported by Adobe, having Dave Abrahms and Sean Parent, kind of gives it bonus points. This is not a random language.
wokwokwok 3y ago
> Then for other languages its media blackout, hate, and an avalanche of trolling. I suppose the hidden machinery and utility accounts don't come out, unless "they" perceive an actual threat to its position. ? I dunno where you’re getting this from. Pony? Zig? Crystal? Carp? Taichi? Dex? Vale? The reception has been generally positive imo? Vale got some complaints for being very rough, but the reception was pretty much ok? I mean, those are just things I’ve seen flow past on HN, so maybe others drop off and never see the light of day, but that’s true of most links on HN in general. To rise up and then get heaps of negativity seems unusual for a programming language? You sound quite “conspiracy theory” with this, and I think you’re sitting in a weird echo chamber. If anything, I’d say the big difference is that this is broadly speaking a technical audience; a language that is not pitched at a technical audience (or exaggerates for marketing purposes like getting funding) will just get downvoted as spam. Val has an open source compiler you can look at right now (not vapour), clearly points out it’s not ready for use, but has big ideas. Doesn’t seem like you need a “deep state” to be enthusiastic about competent people building a new language, and having a chance to push it in a direction you personally want as it evolves.
- Tozen 3y ago
  > You sound quite “conspiracy theory” with this... It's not based on conspiracy or throwing out a quick unresearched opinion to just smite someone. It's based on search, and reading posts made on HN (over the years). > (exaggerates for marketing purposes like getting funding) will just get downvoted.... > (not vapour), clearly points out it’s not ready for use, but has big ideas... The difference is, being consistent with handing out such punishments (downvoting) and giving negative labels (vapor). Treat all the languages the same or equally apply those rules, otherwise the hypocrisy shows itself. Don't be so angry or surprised that someone may comment on it or point it out. And when using terms like "vapor", let it be one's original thought, and not what is supplied by others painting a certain narrative.
  - wokwokwok 3y ago
    > The difference is, being consistent with handing out such punishments (downvoting) and giving negative labels (vapor). Treat all the languages the same or equally apply those rules ??? Isn’t that literally what I’m doing with my examples of like 6 different programming languages? > Don't be so angry or surprised I apologise if I somehow came across as angry; I’m simply stating a fact. There is no conspiracy.
coffeeaddict1 3y ago
I think the interest in this project is also peaked by the fact that some of the people behind the project are quite well-known and respected members of the C++ (and Swift) communities.

by Tozen 3y ago

pertymcpert 3y ago

It seems to be a coin flip. Whichever comment gets upvoted early on continues to be upvoted and becomes the consensus.

aetimmes 3y ago

Communities aren't monoliths. The groups of people who criticize real tangible languages and people who have the skills to critique the design of abstract language design don't necessarily overlap.

mbStavola 3y ago

People were rightfully critical of V for over promising and under delivering as well as misrepresenting the capabilities of the language. Val has promised a lot and hasn't delivered anything, so I think it's fine to be interested/ excited but have a heavy dose of scepticism as well.

Tozen 3y ago
[flagged]
- 1732050 3y ago
  The Vlang creator's initial misrepresentation of the language and their very problematic and hostile handling of any questions regarding the design of their language means, for me, I will never use it and don't consider it a serious language.
  - Tozen 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - 1732050 3y ago
      [flagged]
pepa65 3y ago
It seems V is now delivering quite well.
- Tozen 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - beepbopbeep 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - amedvednikov 3y ago
      > the creator of V had a clear and obvious pattern of overpromising and overhyping things early on can you please list any examples here?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - Tozen 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - beepbopbeep 3y ago
        [flagged]
- super_flanker 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - amedvednikov 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - 3y ago
amedvednikov 3y ago
Can you please list here examples of under delivering and misrepresenting?
- bheadmaster 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - amedvednikov 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - super_flanker 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - amedvednikov 3y ago
        This is not the main site (vlang.io). Such claim was never made there. The OP mentioned that it "was on the list of 'features' for a long time". The HN comment you referenced is from 2019. I was very anti-GC back then, that's why I didn't want to have a GC, but a model similar to Rust. After playing with GC, I realized it worked really well with V, and offered a better performance. There's an article about these decisions on V's blog. They can change over years, you know. If a project leader changes their mind on a technical decision over years and explains the reasons, that doesn't make them a liar. The end goal is having good performance, flexible memory management, minimal resource usage.
        bheadmaster 3y ago
        [flagged]
- mbStavola 3y ago
  As you're well aware, there were a series of articles written about this[0][1] which were popular on HN a few years back. This is well documented, reproducible, and done in good faith. Now, I just want to make it clear that my exact wording here was "people were rightfully critical of V" and not "people are rightfully critical of V" (emphasis added). My intent is not to malign the current state of V, because 1) I do not keep up with the language and 2) it isn't relevant to the point being made. The parent comment was drawing a comparison between "other languages" (which, by now, it's apparent that they're speaking primarily about V) and Val when it comes to HN's reaction. If we're going to compare, it only makes sense to compare them at similar stages of development / release. So, in this case we're talking about early release V and what was promised versus delivered. It does not matter what is being done in service of users now because the criticism I'm referring to isn't from now, but when the initial HN impressions of V were formed. [0]: https://xeiaso.net/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 https://xeiaso.net/blog/v-vaporware-2019-06-23 [1]: https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17 https://xeiaso.net/blog/vlang-update-2020-06-17

sixthDot 3y ago

> Then for other languages its media blackout, hate, and an avalanche of trolling [...] > Just weirds me out, as to how reactions and perception goes. The prog lang world is a massive circle jerk, with plenty of toxicity, extreme fanboy-ism and haters.

Tozen 3y ago
Hard to argue against the truth or the reality of it.

ben-schaaf 3y ago

This seems like a kneejerk reaction to the topmost comment not being critical. There's plenty of critique and skepticism if you read past the top, be it the name, parts of the docs, whether their mutable value semantics work, etc.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pjmlp 3y ago

Being supported by Adobe, having Dave Abrahms and Sean Parent, kind of gives it bonus points. This is not a random language.

wokwokwok 3y ago

> Then for other languages its media blackout, hate, and an avalanche of trolling. I suppose the hidden machinery and utility accounts don't come out, unless "they" perceive an actual threat to its position. ? I dunno where you’re getting this from. Pony? Zig? Crystal? Carp? Taichi? Dex? Vale? The reception has been generally positive imo? Vale got some complaints for being very rough, but the reception was pretty much ok? I mean, those are just things I’ve seen flow past on HN, so maybe others drop off and never see the light of day, but that’s true of most links on HN in general. To rise up and then get heaps of negativity seems unusual for a programming language? You sound quite “conspiracy theory” with this, and I think you’re sitting in a weird echo chamber. If anything, I’d say the big difference is that this is broadly speaking a technical audience; a language that is not pitched at a technical audience (or exaggerates for marketing purposes like getting funding) will just get downvoted as spam. Val has an open source compiler you can look at right now (not vapour), clearly points out it’s not ready for use, but has big ideas. Doesn’t seem like you need a “deep state” to be enthusiastic about competent people building a new language, and having a chance to push it in a direction you personally want as it evolves.

Tozen 3y ago
> You sound quite “conspiracy theory” with this... It's not based on conspiracy or throwing out a quick unresearched opinion to just smite someone. It's based on search, and reading posts made on HN (over the years). > (exaggerates for marketing purposes like getting funding) will just get downvoted.... > (not vapour), clearly points out it’s not ready for use, but has big ideas... The difference is, being consistent with handing out such punishments (downvoting) and giving negative labels (vapor). Treat all the languages the same or equally apply those rules, otherwise the hypocrisy shows itself. Don't be so angry or surprised that someone may comment on it or point it out. And when using terms like "vapor", let it be one's original thought, and not what is supplied by others painting a certain narrative.
- wokwokwok 3y ago
  > The difference is, being consistent with handing out such punishments (downvoting) and giving negative labels (vapor). Treat all the languages the same or equally apply those rules ??? Isn’t that literally what I’m doing with my examples of like 6 different programming languages? > Don't be so angry or surprised I apologise if I somehow came across as angry; I’m simply stating a fact. There is no conspiracy.

coffeeaddict1 3y ago

I think the interest in this project is also peaked by the fact that some of the people behind the project are quite well-known and respected members of the C++ (and Swift) communities.