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The fact my dad grew up in Venezuela when it was the 4th wealthiest nation in the world per capita (granted, Europe was recovering from WW2) blows my mind. It w

The fact my dad grew up in Venezuela when it was the 4th wealthiest nation in the world per capita (granted, Europe was recovering from WW2) blows my mind. It was still top 20 by the 70s. [0] [0] https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/GDP-per-capita-in-1950 https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Economy/GDP-...

avgcorrection 3y ago
It’s hard to be a petronation in the Americas.
- ashconnor 3y ago
  Norway is probably the best managed petrostate. The key appears to be directing revenues into foreign investment and use the gains to pay for social programs over long periods of time, rather than dumping money into your economy.
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    In the Americas. Being a petronation on the edge of America’s backyard evidently works fine. America won’t try to coup that part of the world. (As far as I know.)
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Canada and Denmark (Greenland) would have a word with you.
      - avgcorrection 3y ago
        What point are you trying to make besides being a contrarian? Tell me.
        alephnerd 3y ago
        1. The foreign policy decisions made by administrations during the Cold War are no longer implemented anymore. The Cold War is as distant in 2023 as WW2 was in 1980. The world in 2023 is different from the world in the 1970s which is different from the world in the 1940s. 2. The institutional changes that caused Venezuela's dramatic slide only really began to take hold in the 2000s, and were exacerbated by the global collapse in commodity prices in the 2012-15 period. 3. Plenty of petro-states across South and Central America have in 2023 reached a state of development comparable to eastern members of the EU (ie. In the 0.7 or high development range). 4. GDP per capita is a crummy metric to compare economic development. GDP (and ergo per capita GDP) are metrics to benchmark production, not social development, which are better measured when looking at metrics such as HDI, Life Expectancy, Literacy Rate, Median Income, Childhood Mortality Rate, etc. Even though Venezuela had a very high GDP per capita in the late 1970s/early 1980s, it was extremely unevenly distributed. In fact, in the time period that Venezeula had the 4th highest GDP per capita, it's Gini Coefficient (the metric for wealth inequality) was 0.500 [0]. This is in line with Angola and Zimbabwe today, and was much worse than other nations across South America. By that time period, the kind of interventions you saw in Chile, Guatemala, etc were not as vogue, with the Iran-Contra Scandal acting as the final nail in the coffin for any direct clandestine intervention. Venezuela's problems today are caused by Venezuela's leaders mismanaging the economic dividend in the 2000s and elites on both sides of the aisle in Venezeula working to undermine institutions to their benefit. [0] - https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-05147-2_18 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-05147-2_...
        avgcorrection 3y ago
        I wouldn’t have guessed that your point was about Venezuela.
  - piva00 3y ago
    > The key appears to be directing revenues into foreign investment and use the gains to pay for social programs over long periods of time, rather than dumping money into your economy. Which was a policy suggested by an Iraqi (Farouk al-Kasim) to the Norwegian government. [0] [0] https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...
- nradov 3y ago
  It's only hard to be a "petronation" if you make it hard. The USA produces more oil and natural gas than any other country in the world, and we seem to be doing well enough. Similar for Canada. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-scale-of-global-fossil-fuel-production/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-scale-of-gl...
  - avgcorrection 3y ago
    By “hard” I meant that the local hegemon makes it hard.
  - DragonStrength 3y ago
    Being a "petronation" implies the economy is centered around petroleum. The US economy is not. Our largest companies are currently tech companies, no longer oil companies. The temptation is to center your economy around a single resource, holding back other areas of your economy. "Resource curse" is the term I've read for it applied to things like oil and good soil in the early years of US history.
- DragonStrength 3y ago
  Resource curse issues have little to do with the specific resource or geography. Many of the poorest places in the US were once its richest.

avgcorrection 3y ago

It’s hard to be a petronation in the Americas.

ashconnor 3y ago
Norway is probably the best managed petrostate. The key appears to be directing revenues into foreign investment and use the gains to pay for social programs over long periods of time, rather than dumping money into your economy.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  In the Americas. Being a petronation on the edge of America’s backyard evidently works fine. America won’t try to coup that part of the world. (As far as I know.)
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Canada and Denmark (Greenland) would have a word with you.
    - avgcorrection 3y ago
      What point are you trying to make besides being a contrarian? Tell me.
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        1. The foreign policy decisions made by administrations during the Cold War are no longer implemented anymore. The Cold War is as distant in 2023 as WW2 was in 1980. The world in 2023 is different from the world in the 1970s which is different from the world in the 1940s. 2. The institutional changes that caused Venezuela's dramatic slide only really began to take hold in the 2000s, and were exacerbated by the global collapse in commodity prices in the 2012-15 period. 3. Plenty of petro-states across South and Central America have in 2023 reached a state of development comparable to eastern members of the EU (ie. In the 0.7 or high development range). 4. GDP per capita is a crummy metric to compare economic development. GDP (and ergo per capita GDP) are metrics to benchmark production, not social development, which are better measured when looking at metrics such as HDI, Life Expectancy, Literacy Rate, Median Income, Childhood Mortality Rate, etc. Even though Venezuela had a very high GDP per capita in the late 1970s/early 1980s, it was extremely unevenly distributed. In fact, in the time period that Venezeula had the 4th highest GDP per capita, it's Gini Coefficient (the metric for wealth inequality) was 0.500 [0]. This is in line with Angola and Zimbabwe today, and was much worse than other nations across South America. By that time period, the kind of interventions you saw in Chile, Guatemala, etc were not as vogue, with the Iran-Contra Scandal acting as the final nail in the coffin for any direct clandestine intervention. Venezuela's problems today are caused by Venezuela's leaders mismanaging the economic dividend in the 2000s and elites on both sides of the aisle in Venezeula working to undermine institutions to their benefit. [0] - https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-05147-2_18 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-05147-2_...
        avgcorrection 3y ago
        I wouldn’t have guessed that your point was about Venezuela.
- piva00 3y ago
  > The key appears to be directing revenues into foreign investment and use the gains to pay for social programs over long periods of time, rather than dumping money into your economy. Which was a policy suggested by an Iraqi (Farouk al-Kasim) to the Norwegian government. [0] [0] https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...
nradov 3y ago
It's only hard to be a "petronation" if you make it hard. The USA produces more oil and natural gas than any other country in the world, and we seem to be doing well enough. Similar for Canada. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-scale-of-global-fossil-fuel-production/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-scale-of-gl...
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  By “hard” I meant that the local hegemon makes it hard.
- DragonStrength 3y ago
  Being a "petronation" implies the economy is centered around petroleum. The US economy is not. Our largest companies are currently tech companies, no longer oil companies. The temptation is to center your economy around a single resource, holding back other areas of your economy. "Resource curse" is the term I've read for it applied to things like oil and good soil in the early years of US history.
DragonStrength 3y ago
Resource curse issues have little to do with the specific resource or geography. Many of the poorest places in the US were once its richest.