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US vs. Poller: Ruling says police can use iPhones to circumvent tinted windows
- floxy 3y agoSeems like this logic would also allow police to use WiFi to see through the walls of your house? https://www.tomshardware.com/news/wi-fi-routers-used-to-detect-human-locations-poses-within-a-room https://www.tomshardware.com/news/wi-fi-routers-used-to-dete...
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago"sense-enhancing technology like the camera function of an iPhone that is in general public use." the language doesn't make it clear whether "in general public use" is the full scope or "in general public use, for the purpose adopted by law enforcement in this case". iPhones and wifi are in general public use; the former is widely used to illuminate or look at things, the latter is rarely, if ever, used to see through the walls of a house. If that's even a thing.
- bagels 3y agoDoes it define "sense enhancing"? X-Rays could enhance vision by converting x-rays in to visible light.
- Ancapistani 3y agoThe closest thing I can think of is "in common use", as (poorly) defined in Caetano v Massachussets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caetano_v._Massachusetts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caetano_v._Massachusetts
- tpxl 3y ago> If that's even a thing. You'll be happy to learn IEE 802.11bf standardized wifi sensing granular enough to do gesture detection. When that becomes ubiquitous in ISP provided routers, your friendly neighbourhood police will be one warrant away from tracking your movement around your house.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- henryfjordan 3y agoNo, the ruling goes out of it's way to say that putting something on the front seat of a car doesn't provide an expectation of privacy. Your home is very different in the eyes of the law. You can't use IR cameras to see into a home already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States Edit: After re-reading, I think you may have a point that Wifi is a commonly-used technology and might technically be allowed. It might depend on whether your phone or wifi router could be used as a detector with the right software. I'd imagine the supreme court might change the standard if that happened though. They generally treat the home as more sacred.
- TomatoTomato 3y agoWhat about the trunk of your car?
- tptacek 3y agoYou have an expectation of privacy for the contents of your trunk, but it's less firm than that of your house --- your trunk can be searched without a warrant to "inventory" it if it's merely impounded, without suspicion or an arrest. If the police had a device that enabled them to see into car trunks, it would likely constitute a search requiring "reasonableness" to use it.
- fragmede 3y agoWhich it should be noted, they do. Semi-truck sized x-ray machines exist, especially at border control, but also elsewhere, and is used to see inside of semi-trucks. Using that same device against a car seems entirely feasible. But as you point out, if they impound the vehicle, they can just inventory the trunk directly, assuming they have the key. If you have a locked safe in the trunk, I don't think they're (legally) allowed to x-ray it to find out what's inside of that, although they can parallel-reconstrution their way to having a reason after the fact.
- tptacek 3y ago
- duxup 3y agoThe courts in the US have been pretty specific about car vs home. They don’t seem to treat them as the same.
- websap 3y agoToo bad for the unhoused I guess?
- duxup 3y agoI don’t know. I do know the courts treat homes and cars differently.
- seanw444 3y agoIronically, there have been SCOTUS rulings that state that your vehicle is an extension of your home.
- klyrs 3y agoI'm gonna use this next time my (Marine) cousin asks me for a ride to the airport. God bless the 3A
- somebodynew 3y agoThis reminds me of one of my favorite court cases, a rare application of the 3rd amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engblom_v._Carey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engblom_v._Carey A prison tried to break a strike of workers who lived in prison dorms by replacing them with members of the National Guard, until a court ruled that this constituted illegally quartering soldiers in their homes.
- saveferris 3y agoOhhhh, now that is interesting. I think I'd say you don't have an expectation of privacy when you park your car on a public street, people can look into the windows and if they are tinted then using a device to "see" through the tint doesn't go over the line to circumvent your expectation of privacy - if items were in the trunk....maybe that elevates the expectation of privacy but leaving something on the seat or something that can be seen looking into the windows of a car parked out in public seems like you should not expect a high level of privacy. Your house/apartment on the other hand...you should expect a high/higher level of privacy there, even looking into the windows - if something is found looking into the windows it should not be admissible as evidence without a warrant. I do not know if the law actually distinguishes privacy if it's a car vs a residence.
- more_corn 3y agoIt does. Your car is on a public street. You have no expectation of privacy on a public street. Also the law explicitly addresses tint. You cannot tint the windshield and front windows past a certain poknt. Your home is private . You have an expectation of privacy there.
- tptacek 3y agoThis isn't accurate. You do have some enforceable expectations of privacy in a motor vehicle parked on a public street --- the trunk, the contents of the glove box, the contents of closed containers in plain view in the passenger's compartment. What you don't get is privacy for any of the parts of the car that would ordinarily be in plain view to someone outside the car.
- chrisco255 3y agoOf course there are limited expectations of privacy in a vehicle. The glovebox, trunk, a box in the back seat, a duffel bag in the front seat, anything concealing the contents has an expectation of privacy. And no, you don't just automatically lose your 4th amendment rights just because you're on a public street. Tinting laws are for motor safety, not for the surveillance state. Notably, limousines are fully tinted in the rear as well as most passenger buses. And of course, cargo vans etc are fully enclosed.
- nonameiguess 3y agoThose were WiFi routers inside the room. They didn't see through walls. Unfortunately, I don't see how the logic wouldn't basically be sound based on the existing criteria that, if technology existed and was in widespread public use that allowed ordinary people to routinely see through walls, then yes, being behind a wall would not give you a reasonable expectation of privacy. Assuming we ever reach that point, the Supreme Court would either need to come up with a new test of what constitutes a search or we'd need to ban such devices so people could still expect privacy in their own homes.
- floxy 3y ago>They didn't see through walls. https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/see-through-walls-using-wi-fi-routers https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/see-through-wa...
- adolph 3y agoAlso the new generation of mm wave radar devices, which can see through some materials. Here is a good rerun of an Andreas Spiess video covering some recent-ish sensors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU-Rrwf1vr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU-Rrwf1vr0
- trashcanman 3y agoWait you access a google drive document and the user sharing gets your email address. Sketch
- dzdt 3y agoSource? I've wondered about that but had the opposite impression.
- trashcanman 3y agoI’ve seen it firsthand when I shared a doc
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoRight click -> open incognito Be careful in Vegas btw
- sophiebits 3y agoI believe that’s only the case when opening a non-public doc (such as one shared with your entire company).
- x86a 3y agoThe owner of the Google Doc is Orin Kerr (Prof. at UC Berkeley) if it makes you feel any better or worse https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/1681018140724166657 https://twitter.com/OrinKerr/status/1681018140724166657
- babyshake 3y agoWould shining a flashlight have the same effect? Also, I don't like police overreach but I wouldn't think getting tinted windows gives you any legal right to people not being able to see inside your car, just that it won't be easy for them to casually look over and see inside your car.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- duxup 3y ago> I wouldn't think getting tinted windows gives you any legal right to people not being able to see inside your car Especially considering how much tint is allowed is often regulated by the state so that you can safely see out. The idea that you can see through it already is a thing.
- retrac 3y agoI always understood the limit on tinting to be bidirectional in its safety benefit. The driver needs to see, but the driver also needs to be seen. As a pedestrian, if I can't see the driver, I don't know if they can see me. I wonder how often drivers in heavily tinted vehicles gesture and don't realize they can't be seen?
- duxup 3y agoI agree seeing another driver who isn’t paying attention approaching an intersection has saved me several times.
- Izkata 3y agoAnd on the flipside if I reach an intersection at the same time as a driver, if they see me pause they'll sometimes wave me across. Happens maybe once every month or two.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
- w-ll 3y agoIs this because the camera sensors leak more in the IR spectrum, and the tint doesnt block IR.
- midoridensha 3y agoThat sounds like crappy tint. IR is what carries most of the heat, so high-quality tint blocks that part of the spectrum well.
- VWWHFSfQ 3y ago> This is a case that arises at the intersection of the Fourth Amendment [unreasonable search and seizure] and the technological capabilities of an Apple iPhone. The defendant Christopher Poller allegedly stashed two guns and illegal drugs on the front seat of his car. He parked the car on a road in front of his apartment and then went inside. Because the windows of the car were heavily tinted, he probably thought no one could see inside. But he was mistaken. The police came along and — by holding up an iPhone to the window of the car and activating the iPhone’s camera viewfinder function — they could clearly see the guns and drugs inside the car. The police officers just used iPhone's camera capability to look through the tinted window and see the firearms and drugs in the car.
- nthitz 3y ago> activating the iPhone’s camera viewfinder function what exactly does that mean?
- geraldwhen 3y agoSounds like they opened the camera app and looked at the image produced on the screen.
- tptacek 3y agoThis seems like a sideshow, given: The body-cam video also shows that one of the detectives was able to see inside the car without the assistance of an iPhone by cupping his hands around his eyes and looking through the windshield. The police were also there serving an arrest warrant on the owner of the car, so keep in mind they had broad discretion to search incident to the arrest --- as the record here shows, the police originally attempted to open the car.
- VWWHFSfQ 3y agoDefinitely a sideshow. But this is still important case law. The police can use a commonly available technology (iPhone) to observe things through some kind of obfuscated barrier. They've been allowed to do this with a flashlight (darkness) and now they're allowed to do it with iPhones (tinted windows). Seems perfectly fine to me.
- tptacek 3y agoThis particular obfuscated barrier is already disfavored by the law; for instance, where I live, window tints sufficient to block inspection of the passenger compartment of the car by an officer standing next to the car are already effectively illegal.
- VWWHFSfQ 3y agoIf the window tint can be "peered through" by an iPhone (commonly available technology), is it still illegel? This court said no, it's not.
- tptacek 3y agoThe statute is written in terms of visible light transmittance, so this ruling isn't going to help people with dark tinted windows.
- RetpolineDrama 3y ago>window tints sufficient to block inspection of the passenger compartment of the car by an officer standing next to the car are already effectively illegal Which is absolutely preposterous, given how hot it is getting. Window tint laws need to be repealed.
- darkclouds 3y agoWiretaps are sense enhancing technology and precedent has been set with court's having to issue permission to wire tap. And an iphone is not standard equipment issue for cops, ergo the cop was acting like a criminal by using non standard equipment in effect behaving like their own militia, over stepping the law.
- Vecr 3y agoWhy are the police not allowed to behave like a militia? I guess if they are female or too old to be considered as part of the unorganized militia in the first place, but from what the Supreme Court has said about the draft and the second amendment, I don't think that works. I think it's reasonable that all police are part of the unorganized militia at the very least.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bandyaboot 3y ago> And an iphone is not standard equipment issue for cops, ergo the cop was acting like a criminal by using non standard equipment in effect behaving like their own militia, over stepping the law. What makes you think a police officer isn’t allowed to use “non standard equipment” in the course of an investigation? If a private citizen is allowed to use an iPhone to look through the tint on a car window, so is a cop.
- bandyaboot 3y agoFairly obvious ruling. If a civilian is allowed to do it, so is a police officer.
- elishah 3y ago> If a civilian is allowed to do it, so is a police officer. That is often not the way it works, most especially when it comes to obtaining evidence. If some random person breaks into your house, goes through your files until they find documentation of some crime, and then hands that over to the police, it would generally be admissible in court as evidence against you. Whereas if the cops broke into your house and went through your files without a warrant that specifically permitted that, any evidence they acquired that way would be poisoned and inadmissible.
- bandyaboot 3y agoThat’s a bit beyond the scope of what I was referring to, but I also don’t think that really is a counter factual to what I said. A private person is not allowed to break into a house in search of evidence and neither is a police officer. The fact that evidence from the former case may be admissible in a trial doesn’t really change that.
- Scoundreller 3y agoI need vehicle window tint that works like those LCDs on aircraft windows, so I can black out everything with a single central switch. Tint laws only apply to vehicles while operating, right?
- blackfawn 3y agoSounds great until something shorts or fails and the tinting goes full opaque while driving!
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoThe annoying thing is when the flight crews black them out for everybody with a single central switch and you have a 14+ hour flight with the lights off and windows disabled and can't even get a dimmed view outside. Great for the flight attendants who cut down on workload by trying to get all the passengers to sleep the entire flight.
- _s 3y agoThey never go full black though? You can still adjust them (marginally / within some limited bounds of very dark to dark) from what I remember.
- elishah 3y agoThe problem with LCD windows like that is that they default to opaque, and require power to align the crystals to become clear. Fine for your fancy boardroom, not so good for a vehicle when a minor hardware fault can instantly render the driver blind.
- coldtea 3y agoThe whole notion of "expectation of privacy" and the medieval theology arguments around it, is so BS, and yet people are so conditioned to it. It should be a set of clear cut cases: "your house is private", "your car is (or isn't)", and so on, and anything private should need a warrant. Courts shouldn't get to decide, or interpret various techniques attempted to bypass this...
- tptacek 3y agoYou'll need to take that up with the authors of the 4th Amendment, who left this matter up to the courts when they gave people in the US the right to be free from "unreasonable" searches, where "unreasonable" is a term of art that effectively means "it's up to the judiciary". More to the point, this theological business of determining where the expectations of privacy are is exactly the business of declaring what is and isn't private that you're asking them to work out.
- coldtea 3y ago>More to the point, this theological business of determining where the expectations of privacy are is exactly the business of declaring what is and isn't private that you're asking them to work out I'm asking for clear-cut hard cases, as opposed to ad-hoc divinations. Oh, and that those clear cut cases not be based on vague premises like "expectation". It should be "these cases are private, enforcing what our society -as represented by lawmakers- believes ought to be kept private". Versus guessing what some founding fathers or amendment authors meant when they said "expectation" and whether this or that place should be "expected to be private" or not. >where "unreasonable" is a term of art that effectively means "it's up to the judiciary". Sure, and this is the problem I'm pointing. "Unreasonable" is an open ended term, that doesn't settle anything, and keeps people guessing. In 2023 this person went to court without knowing whether their car is allowed privacy or not. That's not a 21st century law, that's like some ancient oracle prophesy that can be read 20 odd ways. You know, like that other term of art, about a "millitia", that has lead to centuries of theological arguments about the number of well regulated angels that can stand on the top of a pin.
- mayoff 3y agoI just tried this with my iPhone 12 mini on my cars, which were parked in my garage out of direct sunlight. I was shocked by how well it worked.
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoThis precedent is nice. I'd prefer less blacked-out windows on the road. I often wonder why a person wants to be so obscured. Around me, the worst contenders are the lifted G-Wagons with basically black mirrors for windows. What are they hiding from?
- projektfu 3y agoOne of my friends said he didn't want people to talk about who he was driving around with. Essentially meaning his jealous girlfriend. I don't blame him, she drew blood once in front of me. People have crazy relationships sometimes.
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoSeems like he needs a different solution than window blurring. Hope he's able to grow and heal past that one!
- Gordonjcp 3y agoThere used to be a black first-gen BMW X5 that parked up near my partner's house in the Glasgow's South Side. Scuffed 22" alloy wheels, mismatched half-bald no-name tyres, bubbly black window tint film, bubbly Gucci-print gold-on-carbon wrap on the bonnet and tailgate, "Arabic prayer" CD dangly tassley thing hanging from the mirror, huge exhaust pipes. No tax, no MOT (last MOT failed quite comprehensively on various serious defects), no insurance. Like, come on, guy, try *not* to be the reason that stereotypes exist, eh?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- suyula 3y agoThe sun is too bright.
- alexfromapex 3y agoNeed tint that blocks infrared spectrum
- 1letterunixname 3y agoMay get to the point where tint is replaced with literal tin foil and people use 360 degree stitched camera systems for all situational awareness outside their vehicle.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThis is a slippery slope eroding the 4th a.: at what point can police use X-ray, muon, FLIR, MMW, and SIGINT against private property and persons and say it's "not a warrantless search" and maintain a shred of credulity?
- kazinator 3y ago> "Using the iPhone’s camera viewing function the detective could see through the tint into the interior of the car." What's the difference between this and using a flashlight? All the verbiage surrounding the iPhone looks like a red herring.