8 ms·

In the PNW these are absolutely everywhere and for good reason - they're exactly what most people need when they need a truck bed for hauling capacity. Plus, ma

by mdtusz 3y ago

In the PNW these are absolutely everywhere and for good reason - they're exactly what most people need when they need a truck bed for hauling capacity. Plus, many are 4/AWD and have relatively high clearance so they're great adventure wagons for forest roads and getting out there. If a manufacturer made a truck similar (or slightly larger - not much room for people 6' and over in them) available for the market here, I'm sure they'd sell well. Seems like the biggest impediment is the safety laws here though and American insistence on having the biggest vehicle on the road.

rootusrootus 3y ago
In Oregon, Kei cars are specifically illegal, they cannot be titled or registered. Other states are following a similar path so definitely make sure you can title it before you buy it.
- greggsy 3y ago
  Is that for safety or market protection reasons?
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    The only reason given is that they are not manufactured for US highways. Which may be a roundabout way of saying they aren't capable of going highway speeds.
    - walrus01 3y ago
      This seems like a weird way of US states attempting to enforce their own local interpretation of federal laws and not laws that actually exist as state code. Anything that's over 25 years old is specifically exempt from federal FMVSS. If it's under 25 years old you can't legally import it anyways for use on US roads (with title, etc). People do import <25 year old kei type vehicles for use exclusively on private property on large ranches and such. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_Standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_S... google "usa 25 year import car rule". https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=USA+25+year+import+car+rule https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=USA+25+ye...
      - brigade 3y ago
        States are not required to register cars just because the federal government allows them to be imported or sold. They can add requirements consistent with their own laws, as California infamously does causing 49-state cars and parts. Whether categorically blocking kei car registrations is consistent with the laws of some of the states doing it is a question in some ongoing lawsuits, though.
        walrus01 3y ago
        Different US states' very unique interpretation of laws on certain things is something I have seen that needs explanation to foreign visitors and people who immigrate, from countries where there is one consistent legal code and regulation system of various products at the national level... Marijuana regulations and firearms (and limitations of different types of firearms) are two obvious examples. Other things like per-state family leave laws for employees, employment law, landlord tenant law as well.
        rootusrootus 3y ago
        > Different US states' very unique interpretation of laws on certain things is something I have seen that needs explanation Definitely! Especially here on HN. A lot of the questions & criticisms I see from people outside the US likely stem from ignorance about how the government of US is constructed. The states really are very powerful, even ~250 years into the experiment.
        hprotagonist 3y ago
        https://nonasuch.tumblr.com/post/616921709864468480/do-non-americans-realize-that-the-united-states-is https://nonasuch.tumblr.com/post/616921709864468480/do-non-a... “Do non-americans realize that the United States is literally just a bunch of countries in a trench coat that agreed to be semi-nice to each other in order to sneak into the Big Boy Club? Because let’s be honest that’s just what the USA is”
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      They’re not really manufactured for Japanese highways either. Though Japanese highways go marginally slower, 60mph is pushing the poor kei to it’s limits. Lets just say I don’t enjoy sitting in a kei truck that’s attempting to do maximum speed.
      - nine_k 3y ago
        The whole point of the kei form factor is different parking rules in dense, sometimes cramped Japanese cities. Due to the small footprint, they are allowed to park in more places. These are urban vehicles, not intended for highways, except in a pinch.
        numpad0 3y ago
        There’s no separate parking laws for Kei cars, just relaxed legal processes and taxes. You still can’t park overnight on streets.
        Dalewyn 3y ago
        Close but no cigar. The real reason is because everything is small in Japan due to a lack of absolute space. Remember, the place is a god damn island nation with mountains for its interior. Roads are narrow, particularly in the countryside and especially if we're talking about roads crisscrossing between farms and rice paddies. Normal sized cars quite literally don't fit, much less normal sized trucks. Consequently, out in the towns and cities you see far more normal sized cars because the roads are wider.
        nine_k 3y ago
        Who needs a cigar when one could read Wikipedia first? > In most rural areas they are also exempted from the requirement to certify that adequate parking is available for the vehicle Kei cars have a number of prescribed limitations (yes, because space is at a premium, but so is / was fuel, metal, etc), and even have special number plates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car Also, there are designated parking spots for them where other cars won't fit: > Some places in the parking lots are smaller than others and usually painted with the character “軽自動車” or just “軽”. These spaces are reserved for the small “kei” cars https://japantravelplanning.com/car-parking-in-japan/ https://japantravelplanning.com/car-parking-in-japan/
  - chiph 3y ago
    Not an expert on Oregonian law, but my theory is that Oregon's motor vehicle law references the federal NHTSA regulations, and Kei vehicles laughably don't meet them (exterior lighting, crash performance, theft resistance, emissions, and so on). An owner might be able to use it as an off-road vehicle only (no title, no tag, with maybe only comprehensive insurance), but that's not the point of buying one for a lot of owners.
    - causality0 3y ago
      That's such bullshit when motorcycles are allowed on the road.
      - koolba 3y ago
        Dark take with just enough data to make it a talking point: motorcycles allow the rider to fly off and die from a traumatic brain injury, while preserving their organs. If you’re crushed in a Kei car they probably won’t be able to salvage much. https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/health/organ-donation-motorcycle-rallies/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/health/organ-donation-motorcy...
        harambae 3y ago
        Typically only true if you're not wearing a helmet.
      - KennyBlanken 3y ago
        ...or when my local inspection station, and the cops, don't even blink at a Ford 350 with a huge-ass lift kit, mud tires that don't grip for shit and extend inches (or more) past the fenders which is insanely dangerous, a front bumper that has been replaced with a thick sheetmetal version, and the rear plate is covered by a tinted, a glossy plate cover that makes the plate virtually impossible to read, and the cherry on the pie: a "DPF delete" which means the guy is belching diesel particulate everywhere he goes.
        3y ago
  - bagels 3y ago
    Those as well as emissions reasons.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    Neither. There's an association of state DMV/RMV heads, and they have apparently decided that we shouldn't have these. A lot of state RMVs are starting to refuse to register these vehicles, and that's why you often see them being sold for very cheap.
- bane 3y ago
  Curious, if you were to drive one into Oregon, what would happen?
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    With the usual caveats (IANAL, etc), it would be fine. I think. So far as I know, most equipment-related regulations on cars follow the registration. Driving behavior, will be localized (e.g. double towing is still forbidden in Oregon even if you are titled and registered in California). I'm not aware of any Oregon regulation that says you can't drive a Kei car here, just that you won't be able to title & register it.
- nabilhat 3y ago
  > In Oregon, Kei cars are specifically illegal... That's what the OR DMV suggests, but this is their own made-up policy, not law. They didn't even bother putting it in writing until relatively recently. So far they've failed to put their actively enforced kei policy into Oregon law [0]. They simply decided to stonewall a subset of 80's and 90's Japanese cars. It's not about safety, or emissions, or top speed, or size. Titling and registering underpowered microcars from not-Japan is quick and painless. Pre-80's kei is fine too. Multiple pre-'80's Subaru 360 and Mazda R360 literally-kei cars sport current Oregon license plates, also relatively more common eventually-kei pre-'80's examples like Honda N600/Z600/S600. Also kit cars, street rods, from-scratch homebuilt cars, and literal golf carts the DMV is explicitly happy to title and register [1]. All they're unilaterally regulating is the taint of one specific Japanese initiative that they don't like. Just for fun, kei trucks now get a vaguely worded exception. So if you feel like a gamble it could be possible to buy one and legally drive it to your mailbox or tow behind your RV. Or you'll draw an uncooperative DMV employee, and depending on where you live, zoning or your HOA might force you to destroy it if they catch you keeping it quietly locked up in your garage. The DMV can create an illegal situation that you are liable for by refusing to title a car, even though the car itself isn't illegal by law. Oregon DMV's policies have long been inconsistent, arbitrary, capricious, and some other things besides. [0] https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors801.html https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors801.html [1] https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/vehicle/vehicletypes.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/vehicle/vehicletypes.a...
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    Any bored billionaires here or NGOs willing to finance a suit?
    - fragmede 3y ago
      Bill Gates already did, for his Porsche 959, which was made illegal by the 1988 Imported Vehicle Safety Compliance Act. His lobbying resulted in the 1999 Show or Display law, which allows such vehicles, though they are limited to 2,500 miles per year.
- kotaKat 3y ago
  Register a Montana-based LLC and shove the kei into registration in Montana. If rich folks can do it to evade taxes on their supercars, we can do it to evade registration requirements...
chihuahua 3y ago
If by "they are absolutely everywhere" you mean "I've seen one of them in 25 years of living here", then I agree.
- mdtusz 3y ago
  Forgetting that BC exists entirely. If you search "Kei" on Craigslist Vancouver, there's currently 37 postings, and they're constantly being imported here. I see them in Washington as well, although those may be Canadians just visiting.
  - theluketaylor 3y ago
    A notable difference being in Canada you can import vehicles at 15 years old rather than 25. There is a decent flipping trade in Vancouver to import JDM vehicles while they are Canadian eligible but not US, hang on to them for a while, then sell them south once the 25 years are up.
  - PhasmaFelis 3y ago
    > Forgetting that BC exists entirely. I mean, you forgot that the PNW outside BC exists, so it seems fair.
- allenu 3y ago
  At least in some parts of Seattle, you do see them a lot. In my neighborhood of Ballard, for instance, I can go for a walk and see three of them parked on the street.
  - RandallBrown 3y ago
    We must be neighbors (or close to it) because I think I know exactly where you're talking about.
- Izikiel43 3y ago
  I saw one yesterday in skagit valley
- 3y ago
sellmesoap 3y ago
Another advantage for off-road kei trucks is they are narrow, allowing you to drive around obstacles that you would need a lot of clearance (big tires/lift kits.) A lot of trails in the PNW get overgrown and a narrow vehicle that weighs less causes less trail erosion and can squeeze past obstacles rather then going over them. My understanding is that in Japan insurance cost is based on your odometer, and there are strict inspection and maintenance requirements (mandatory replacement of suspension after so many KMs) so most of these vehicles are lightly used before export. I notice saber rattling by the auto industry here in B.C. trying to limit imports, I see this as a regulatory capture move, I'm not impressed!
- yomlica8 3y ago
  Trucks used to be cheap utility vehicles with fairly basic mechanics, but they've turned in giant luxury land yachts with a price to match. They aren't even a good fit for a lot of kinds of work anymore. If we allow motorcycles to drive on roads I don't see why we couldn't have some sort of limited road use exemption for these simple vehicles. At the very least you should be able to just buy them for farm use.
  - damascus 3y ago
    You can drive whatever you want on private property. It's the 'going on the road' part that adds on the government oversight.
ilyt 3y ago
They tend to be absolutely horrid when it comes to crash safety.
mutex_man 3y ago
CAFE regulations basically make it so no manufacturer will touch that market. The yearly MPG requirements for vehicle manufacturers are heavily influenced by the vehicle size (track width and wheelbase). Bigger footprint means lower MPG target, that's why every new truck now is massive, and they don't make small trucks anymore like the old Tacomas and Rangers.

by mdtusz 3y ago

rootusrootus 3y ago

In Oregon, Kei cars are specifically illegal, they cannot be titled or registered. Other states are following a similar path so definitely make sure you can title it before you buy it.

greggsy 3y ago
Is that for safety or market protection reasons?
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  The only reason given is that they are not manufactured for US highways. Which may be a roundabout way of saying they aren't capable of going highway speeds.
  - walrus01 3y ago
    This seems like a weird way of US states attempting to enforce their own local interpretation of federal laws and not laws that actually exist as state code. Anything that's over 25 years old is specifically exempt from federal FMVSS. If it's under 25 years old you can't legally import it anyways for use on US roads (with title, etc). People do import <25 year old kei type vehicles for use exclusively on private property on large ranches and such. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_Standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_S... google "usa 25 year import car rule". https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=USA+25+year+import+car+rule https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=USA+25+ye...
    - brigade 3y ago
      States are not required to register cars just because the federal government allows them to be imported or sold. They can add requirements consistent with their own laws, as California infamously does causing 49-state cars and parts. Whether categorically blocking kei car registrations is consistent with the laws of some of the states doing it is a question in some ongoing lawsuits, though.
      - walrus01 3y ago
        Different US states' very unique interpretation of laws on certain things is something I have seen that needs explanation to foreign visitors and people who immigrate, from countries where there is one consistent legal code and regulation system of various products at the national level... Marijuana regulations and firearms (and limitations of different types of firearms) are two obvious examples. Other things like per-state family leave laws for employees, employment law, landlord tenant law as well.
        rootusrootus 3y ago
        > Different US states' very unique interpretation of laws on certain things is something I have seen that needs explanation Definitely! Especially here on HN. A lot of the questions & criticisms I see from people outside the US likely stem from ignorance about how the government of US is constructed. The states really are very powerful, even ~250 years into the experiment.
        hprotagonist 3y ago
        https://nonasuch.tumblr.com/post/616921709864468480/do-non-americans-realize-that-the-united-states-is https://nonasuch.tumblr.com/post/616921709864468480/do-non-a... “Do non-americans realize that the United States is literally just a bunch of countries in a trench coat that agreed to be semi-nice to each other in order to sneak into the Big Boy Club? Because let’s be honest that’s just what the USA is”
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    They’re not really manufactured for Japanese highways either. Though Japanese highways go marginally slower, 60mph is pushing the poor kei to it’s limits. Lets just say I don’t enjoy sitting in a kei truck that’s attempting to do maximum speed.
    - nine_k 3y ago
      The whole point of the kei form factor is different parking rules in dense, sometimes cramped Japanese cities. Due to the small footprint, they are allowed to park in more places. These are urban vehicles, not intended for highways, except in a pinch.
      - numpad0 3y ago
        There’s no separate parking laws for Kei cars, just relaxed legal processes and taxes. You still can’t park overnight on streets.
      - Dalewyn 3y ago
        Close but no cigar. The real reason is because everything is small in Japan due to a lack of absolute space. Remember, the place is a god damn island nation with mountains for its interior. Roads are narrow, particularly in the countryside and especially if we're talking about roads crisscrossing between farms and rice paddies. Normal sized cars quite literally don't fit, much less normal sized trucks. Consequently, out in the towns and cities you see far more normal sized cars because the roads are wider.
        nine_k 3y ago
        Who needs a cigar when one could read Wikipedia first? > In most rural areas they are also exempted from the requirement to certify that adequate parking is available for the vehicle Kei cars have a number of prescribed limitations (yes, because space is at a premium, but so is / was fuel, metal, etc), and even have special number plates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car Also, there are designated parking spots for them where other cars won't fit: > Some places in the parking lots are smaller than others and usually painted with the character “軽自動車” or just “軽”. These spaces are reserved for the small “kei” cars https://japantravelplanning.com/car-parking-in-japan/ https://japantravelplanning.com/car-parking-in-japan/
- chiph 3y ago
  Not an expert on Oregonian law, but my theory is that Oregon's motor vehicle law references the federal NHTSA regulations, and Kei vehicles laughably don't meet them (exterior lighting, crash performance, theft resistance, emissions, and so on). An owner might be able to use it as an off-road vehicle only (no title, no tag, with maybe only comprehensive insurance), but that's not the point of buying one for a lot of owners.
  - causality0 3y ago
    That's such bullshit when motorcycles are allowed on the road.
    - koolba 3y ago
      Dark take with just enough data to make it a talking point: motorcycles allow the rider to fly off and die from a traumatic brain injury, while preserving their organs. If you’re crushed in a Kei car they probably won’t be able to salvage much. https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/health/organ-donation-motorcycle-rallies/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/health/organ-donation-motorcy...
      - harambae 3y ago
        Typically only true if you're not wearing a helmet.
    - KennyBlanken 3y ago
      ...or when my local inspection station, and the cops, don't even blink at a Ford 350 with a huge-ass lift kit, mud tires that don't grip for shit and extend inches (or more) past the fenders which is insanely dangerous, a front bumper that has been replaced with a thick sheetmetal version, and the rear plate is covered by a tinted, a glossy plate cover that makes the plate virtually impossible to read, and the cherry on the pie: a "DPF delete" which means the guy is belching diesel particulate everywhere he goes.
      - 3y ago
- bagels 3y ago
  Those as well as emissions reasons.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Neither. There's an association of state DMV/RMV heads, and they have apparently decided that we shouldn't have these. A lot of state RMVs are starting to refuse to register these vehicles, and that's why you often see them being sold for very cheap.
bane 3y ago
Curious, if you were to drive one into Oregon, what would happen?
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  With the usual caveats (IANAL, etc), it would be fine. I think. So far as I know, most equipment-related regulations on cars follow the registration. Driving behavior, will be localized (e.g. double towing is still forbidden in Oregon even if you are titled and registered in California). I'm not aware of any Oregon regulation that says you can't drive a Kei car here, just that you won't be able to title & register it.
nabilhat 3y ago
> In Oregon, Kei cars are specifically illegal... That's what the OR DMV suggests, but this is their own made-up policy, not law. They didn't even bother putting it in writing until relatively recently. So far they've failed to put their actively enforced kei policy into Oregon law [0]. They simply decided to stonewall a subset of 80's and 90's Japanese cars. It's not about safety, or emissions, or top speed, or size. Titling and registering underpowered microcars from not-Japan is quick and painless. Pre-80's kei is fine too. Multiple pre-'80's Subaru 360 and Mazda R360 literally-kei cars sport current Oregon license plates, also relatively more common eventually-kei pre-'80's examples like Honda N600/Z600/S600. Also kit cars, street rods, from-scratch homebuilt cars, and literal golf carts the DMV is explicitly happy to title and register [1]. All they're unilaterally regulating is the taint of one specific Japanese initiative that they don't like. Just for fun, kei trucks now get a vaguely worded exception. So if you feel like a gamble it could be possible to buy one and legally drive it to your mailbox or tow behind your RV. Or you'll draw an uncooperative DMV employee, and depending on where you live, zoning or your HOA might force you to destroy it if they catch you keeping it quietly locked up in your garage. The DMV can create an illegal situation that you are liable for by refusing to title a car, even though the car itself isn't illegal by law. Oregon DMV's policies have long been inconsistent, arbitrary, capricious, and some other things besides. [0] https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors801.html https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors801.html [1] https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/vehicle/vehicletypes.aspx https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/Pages/vehicle/vehicletypes.a...
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  Any bored billionaires here or NGOs willing to finance a suit?
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Bill Gates already did, for his Porsche 959, which was made illegal by the 1988 Imported Vehicle Safety Compliance Act. His lobbying resulted in the 1999 Show or Display law, which allows such vehicles, though they are limited to 2,500 miles per year.
kotaKat 3y ago
Register a Montana-based LLC and shove the kei into registration in Montana. If rich folks can do it to evade taxes on their supercars, we can do it to evade registration requirements...

chihuahua 3y ago

If by "they are absolutely everywhere" you mean "I've seen one of them in 25 years of living here", then I agree.

mdtusz 3y ago
Forgetting that BC exists entirely. If you search "Kei" on Craigslist Vancouver, there's currently 37 postings, and they're constantly being imported here. I see them in Washington as well, although those may be Canadians just visiting.
- theluketaylor 3y ago
  A notable difference being in Canada you can import vehicles at 15 years old rather than 25. There is a decent flipping trade in Vancouver to import JDM vehicles while they are Canadian eligible but not US, hang on to them for a while, then sell them south once the 25 years are up.
- PhasmaFelis 3y ago
  > Forgetting that BC exists entirely. I mean, you forgot that the PNW outside BC exists, so it seems fair.
allenu 3y ago
At least in some parts of Seattle, you do see them a lot. In my neighborhood of Ballard, for instance, I can go for a walk and see three of them parked on the street.
- RandallBrown 3y ago
  We must be neighbors (or close to it) because I think I know exactly where you're talking about.
Izikiel43 3y ago
I saw one yesterday in skagit valley
3y ago

sellmesoap 3y ago

Another advantage for off-road kei trucks is they are narrow, allowing you to drive around obstacles that you would need a lot of clearance (big tires/lift kits.) A lot of trails in the PNW get overgrown and a narrow vehicle that weighs less causes less trail erosion and can squeeze past obstacles rather then going over them. My understanding is that in Japan insurance cost is based on your odometer, and there are strict inspection and maintenance requirements (mandatory replacement of suspension after so many KMs) so most of these vehicles are lightly used before export. I notice saber rattling by the auto industry here in B.C. trying to limit imports, I see this as a regulatory capture move, I'm not impressed!

yomlica8 3y ago
Trucks used to be cheap utility vehicles with fairly basic mechanics, but they've turned in giant luxury land yachts with a price to match. They aren't even a good fit for a lot of kinds of work anymore. If we allow motorcycles to drive on roads I don't see why we couldn't have some sort of limited road use exemption for these simple vehicles. At the very least you should be able to just buy them for farm use.
- damascus 3y ago
  You can drive whatever you want on private property. It's the 'going on the road' part that adds on the government oversight.

ilyt 3y ago

They tend to be absolutely horrid when it comes to crash safety.

mutex_man 3y ago

CAFE regulations basically make it so no manufacturer will touch that market. The yearly MPG requirements for vehicle manufacturers are heavily influenced by the vehicle size (track width and wheelbase). Bigger footprint means lower MPG target, that's why every new truck now is massive, and they don't make small trucks anymore like the old Tacomas and Rangers.