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>Voluntary transactions are occurring This is where discussions break down because there's broad disagreements on what is and is not considered "voluntary" - t
by AndrewKemendo 3y ago
>Voluntary transactions are occurring
This is where discussions break down because there's broad disagreements on what is and is not considered "voluntary" - there are ethical/moral traditions that claim nothing is voluntary, while others that claim everything is.
We can gain clarity by defining the opposite then: Involuntary
So, what set of circumstances would be required to declare that someone is doing labor "Involuntarily?" and thus there is no "free market" for labor.
For example, would you say that the person who is manually sorting trash out of recycling for <$40,000/yr [1] is doing so voluntarily?
Maybe someone really loves that and wants to do it and would do it for free. That's possible but unlikely. Maybe someone made decisions such that this is the only job that they can get without moving or some other major life decision. Is that still voluntary simply because they are in that position? Assuming they aren't disabled, they can always put their things in a bag and walk to some place with more options. What of people that are disabled then? How much of what they do is voluntary? You get the point
The challenge then is asking, given that there is no OBJECTIVE answer to the question of what is voluntary (Extreme example: You should be constantly trying to break out of prison, otherwise you doing what the guards tell you to is "voluntary") then "voluntary" shouldn't be a discriminator on whether society has something to say about a transaction between people.
Extreme (unreasonably IMO) freemarketeers view individuals as atomic complete units and that's the end of the story. So irrespective of starting or current positions EVERYTHING is voluntary and the world is all-v-all pvp no hold barred competition. That's who is in PE and finance, so that's what you're up against.
[1] https://www.talent.com/view?id=685b4384e8d6 https://www.talent.com/view?id=685b4384e8d6
- sgregnt 3y agoVolanturelly, in my mind, means that you can decide how to employ your resources as you wish (e.g., time education, capital, skills). If your resources allow you only ever a few options, like sorting garbage, you are still doing it voluntarily. If you have many resources (not necessarily material, e.g., education) this will give you more options. Your abilities are teaded agains all other ppl's abilities in a free market. There are complications to this view, but the example with sorting garbage, in my mind, is actually an easy case. Yes it is definitely voluntary.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago>You can decide how to employ your resources as you wish Thank you. So would you say the following is a correct interpretation of your argument: "Any action or set of actions is voluntary, provided there are at least two choices" Follow up question which I do not mean sarcastically or anything other than explicit: Do you consider "Die/cease to function" a persistent choice? That is to say, if there are only the following options: [x, die] then because die is an option, anything for x is always voluntary?
- ars 3y agoYour question is wrong. Voluntary means that the person giving you the choice is not the one creating the choices. So your choice is "work", or "starve and die" - the person offering the job is not creating the "starve and die" choice, therefor it is voluntary. Your choice is "work", "I will beat you" - this in involuntary. Your choice is "work for $1,000,000", or "work for a bar of gold" - this is involuntary because the person offering the choices created the choices.
- lordnacho 3y agoDoes this mean that as long as there are two people making offers, anything you do is voluntary?
- ars 3y agoYour sentence is not written carefully. Rephrasing: As long as there are two independent people making offers, your choice between the two offers is voluntary. (Do not forget the 3rd option: accept neither offer.)
- lordnacho 3y agoWould you like to work for the Garbage Collection Company of America? Would you like to work for the American Garbage Collection Company? Would you like to starve? Aha, you've volunteered to work as a garbage collector. I think this isn't what people think of as voluntary. Sophie's Choice is a better description.