29 ms·

Electric bike, stupid love of my life

241 points by ingve 3y ago

blamazon 3y ago
> The first time I rode one was nearly a decade ago, in Kyoto. This isn't quite the primary thrust of the article but if you travel to Kyoto I highly recommend renting a e-bicycle to see the area. I will never forget the 2 days that my partner and I spent riding around there. I can recommend 'Fuune bicycle rental shop' - the proprietor will helpfully annotate a map for you with recommended routes and explain all the turns and paths with a translator device.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
It amazes me how little attention e-bikes are given in terms of reducing traffic, pollution, CO2 etc. The BBC is especially bad at this - they promote lots of articles singing the praises of electric vehicles (i.e. cars) and almost never mention e-bikes as being far better for a lot of use cases. It also grinds my gears that there's tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes. It's almost as if politicians are employed by car manufacturers.
- blamazon 3y ago
  Social researchers have dubbed this phenomenon "motonormativity"[1] and it is remarkably powerful. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativity-britons-more-accepting-driving-related-risk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativit...
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    Also disparagingly known as car-brain.
    - blamazon 3y ago
      Perhaps to defuse the denigrative aspect of the term we should think of it as analogous to the 'lizard brain' as not a disease but something of an interior module we all have within us - on a day to day basis most people can generally introspect on the contributions of the lizard brain to our thoughts and feelings[1] , why not should we similarly introspect on the car brain and think on a similarly higher order level? [1] Tangential reading: 'Why Buddhism is True' by Robert Wight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511
- kfarr 3y ago
  Agreed, and it comes to life when you ask anyone guess the most popular electric vehicle. It’s not a tesla, it’s an ebike. The good news is that even without mainstream press e-bikes are significantly outselling electric cars
- bluescrn 3y ago
  Unless bike theft is solved, an e-bike will remain a toy for the weekends for most people. An expensive e-bike is a prime target to thieves. They require a secure indoor storage space at both ends of the any journey, and many potential users lack that, either at their workplace or their home (e.g living in an apartment only accessible via stairs)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - blamazon 3y ago
    Cars once upon a time required a secure storage space for security. Technology improved, comprehensive insurance became a social norm, etc, and now you can just snug it against a curb, hop out of your car and press a button and generally not worry about theft, but if it does happen you're covered. Why can't e-bikes be this way? My answer: they can and are, just not all of them yet.
    - c22 3y ago
      I put a two-way car alarm on my ebike and it works exactly like this.
    - bluescrn 3y ago
      Car theft is rather more policed because a 2-ton 100mph+ car can easily kill or cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands. Bike theft is down there with shoplifting or recreational drug use when it comes to policing priorities. But when a bike is stolen, often a person is losing an important means of transportation, so perhaps it should be taken more seriously. Not going to happen in a ‘soft on crime’ society, though.
      - blamazon 3y ago
        I propose, somewhat tautologically, that the primary reason why car theft is generally well policed (in USA, where my lived experiences have primarily been) is that it's generally a small enough problem for most police departments to get their arms around because of basic anti theft technology. I believe the Kia/Hyundai debacle of the last few years supports this idea: > So far this year, Minneapolis police have received 1,899 Kia and Hyundai theft reports, nearly 18 times the number for the same period in 2022. [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8e0a353d24be0e7bce36e34c5e4dac51 https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8...
- zdragnar 3y ago
  I would love to get some e-bikes for my family. However, they're not terribly useful aside from recreation for us. We don't live in an urban or even suburban area. Bikes are a local thing. If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. Cars appeal nationwide. They'll get you hundreds of miles, comfortably, between remote destinations that aren't served by public transport or airports. Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. If you think your area would be better off if tax breaks went to e-bikes, write your city and state governments. Depending on where you live, they're already taking upwards of 10% or more of your income, plus taxing the goods you buy and the land you live on.
  - ryukafalz 3y ago
    They're of course not the solution for every transportation need, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere, but two things: > If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be. The Netherlands is famously windy and rainy and Oulu, Finland has snow 5 months out of the year, but nevertheless lots of people cycle in both places. But yes, if your bike lanes and paths are unmaintained (or worse, have all the street's snow plowed into them) it won't be attractive to cycle in the winter. That's a question of infrastructure and priorities though, it's not the weather alone. > Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. I ride an Urban Arrow Family, and it works fine for bringing home lots of groceries.
    - readingistuff 3y ago
      I live in Seattle, and it's really pretty easy to get a shell for rain and cold. Or shorts for heat.
      - zdragnar 3y ago
        Seattle has a very temperate climate (relatively speaking) so the last paragraph of my post applies quite well there.
    - 3y ago
- Renaud 3y ago
  In France, many cities and regions offer non-negligible subsidies to locals wanting to purchase an e-bikes (I think it also works for regular bikes). These schemes have boosted the adoption of e-bikes and most cities, big and small, have been playing catch-up to provide bike lanes in and around city centres. Currently travelling across France along canals and rivers and the network is pretty extensive all over the country. It’s basically the same story all over Europe (and the UK), with varying degrees of coverage.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    Here in the UK, I gaze longingly over the Channel at France and their promotion of cycling, especially in Paris.
    - dazc 3y ago
      Cheeky
      - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
        I'd like to be able to legally RLJ as in Paris: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868
- karaterobot 3y ago
  I love my e-bike (and feel like I have to point that out in threads like this), but while the use cases for them are many, they do not realistically replace ICE cars for most people. They just don't. People with families need cars, and would never forego owning one (or two, or even three) of them just because they have the option of riding electric bikes. That's why electric and hybrid electric cars remain a big deal.
  - turdprincess 3y ago
    Replacing the car completely is unrealistic. Replacing a second car - totally possible. The folks who are buying electric cars are often buying it as a second car anyways since they still need the ICE car for bigger trips. Those folks could probably get by with one ICE car and a couple of e-bikes, which would be cheaper, healthier and more fun.
    - MrJohz 3y ago
      The other side of this is the potential for car-sharing, reducing the total number of cars around, but allowing people to still make more infrequent journeys by car when that's necessary (or just easier). If your bike is enough for all your regular weekly journeys, you can rent a car for holidays, or visiting friends and family further away.
  - MrJohz 3y ago
    Living in a city in Germany, a lot of families cycle with their children. Typically babies and young children have a seat on the handlebars or in a small trailer on the back, older children either have a tandem-style attachment or their own bike. The various attachments are typically fairly generic, so should work for both regular and electric bikes. You can also buy (or rent) tricycle-style bikes that have a large space at the front to carry heavier loads - children, pets, or just shopping. I assume there are electric versions of these as well. In fairness, most of this assumes that the city is reasonably bike accessible, mainly in terms of having all the necessary amenities within a cycle ride from home. If you live in suburbs, this may not be as possible. But I think that says more about the inadequacy of poorly planned cities than that of electric bikes.
- alsuren 3y ago
  > tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes Cycle to work schemes let you buy a bike before income tax. I'm not sure how that compares to e-car tax breaks though. All your employer if they have such a scheme.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) and you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period. The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) and also the last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. (I'm not looking to buy an e-bike as I'm more of an acoustic cyclist)
    - dazc 3y ago
      It's a tax break which is 100% not enforced. You don't even have to actually cycle to work.
      - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
        I think it would make more sense to reduce or remove VAT from bikes and cycling accessories instead. Far less paperwork and it would immediately open the benefits to everyone rather than being targetted towards the MAMIL (MAWIL?) segment though I consider myself a MAMIL.
    - chriswarbo 3y ago
      > The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) That's just a technicality, I assume to make it comply with other laws about using company money to buy personal items. Payments are deducted from your pre-tax earnings each month, so the saving come from paying less income tax; you can't give the company a wad of cash up-front, or have it all come out of one month's salary. > you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period They will always give you the bike: Cycle to Work schemes are offered as an employee benefit, the company doesn't want the bike. More important is what happens if you leave the company before that period; e.g. when a previous employer folded I had some some balance remaining to pay (around £500), which was deducted from my redundancy payment. > The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) That's certainly true, and probably the main reason to avoid it (as an employer). Still, it's not much different to having surplus office furniture; at the higher-end, I imagine it's similar to an employee requiring some specialist desk chair, which the company can sell off afterwards. > he last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. It varies per employer, e.g. I got one up to £1500. More annoying is that it must cover the full price: e.g. you can't pay £100 cash to get a £1600 ebike (although some sellers may fiddle the price tag to get around this!)
- criddell 3y ago
  > nothing for getting e-bikes Where I live in Texas there’s a $800 rebate for e-bikes.
wildekek 3y ago
I made my own electric bike by purchasing a brand new Stevens City Flyer and mounting a TongSheng Tsdz2 Mid Drive motor to it. It is light, fast, and really easy to maintain. I've been riding it daily for the past 3 years and it has brought me so much joy. It changed where I can live and work. I'm running open source software, so the top speed is only thermally limited. https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1 https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1
- ornornor 3y ago
  Different bike but same motor, it’s a great setup :)
Rnonymous 3y ago
Coincidentally, this past week, VanMoof, the X3 discussed in the article, closed all stores and are on the edge of bankruptcy, with a lot of media attention in the Netherlands. Beautiful smart bikes, but the quality of components is horrible.
- mulmen 3y ago
  Yeah very disappointing. I'm e-bike curious but they're all so _ugly_. Something with VanMoof style and a "dumb" drive system would be perfect. Give me a conventional derailleur-and-cassette in the back and an electric drive up front without screaming "this is an e-bike!" in my face and I would be the first in line.
  - SmellTheGlove 3y ago
    I have a Rad City and I kinda like how stupid looking it is - especially the step through model, which I definitely have. But the nice part is that the bike components are all regular parts. Rad seems to be having serious issues as a company, which is a shame because for the price they’re good frames - but if they go under, it’s not like I relied on them for parts or service anyway. Anyway digression aside, you might be happiest starting with a bike you like and doing your own conversion - either with a hub motor or a mid drive. Or have a look at REI - their ebike selection mostly look like bikes, with the advantage that they’ll also service them. That’s helpful if the manufacturer kicks it.
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      I have the rad-expand, which also looks 'stupid' but I love it anyways. But yeah it's great that they didn't go the way of vanmoof with an app required to unlock it etc. If they do in fact go under my only concern would be a replacement battery I guess? Or is that all standardized (it looks similar to the batteries on all the rent-to-ride e-bikes I see around).
      - SmellTheGlove 3y ago
swader999 3y ago
E bikes really are the best form of travel. The only issue is how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face. You just had a huge rush, got a bit of exercise, paid nothing for parking, eight pennies for 'gas', and beat all your co-workers who were stuck in traffic. The grin is real and not a good look professionally at the office when commuting. Thanks ebikes.ca, endless sphere forums and Sheldon Brown. True spirit of the internet.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  > The only issue is how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face. You just had a huge rush, got a bit of exercise, paid nothing for parking, eight pennies for 'gas', and beat all your co-workers who were stuck in traffic. The grin is real and not a good look professionally at the office when commuting. This is the most hilarious non-satire comment I've read in a while. The grin is indeed an issue
  - swader999 3y ago
    Thanks, I don't have the tech chops most of you have so I try to help out in odd places wherever I can.
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      I haven’t experienced it first hand, but I had one as I read your comment :D
  - SmellTheGlove 3y ago
    Ive been enjoying RTO because most of my commute is via the Elliott Bay Trail in Seattle. It really does put me in a different mood for the day.
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      I'm in ballard and my company has an office downtown. Two weeks back I needed to go in for a day as my home internet was down and decided to take my cargo ebike (it's been lovely out). I'm not sure I'd want to commute on a cargo bike every day, but it was a great ride, both ways, along the ship canal trail. (Little detour on the way home down to figurehead brewing to hit up the midnite ramen truck for dinner)
paganel 3y ago
There is no way for me to let a ~2000 euros object of mine unattended and out in the open. I barely leave my current bike like that, and that "only" costs ~300 euros. More generally, I feel like this is a subject that doesn't get discussed often enough. Yes, most probably the writer of this article can eat the 2000 euros loss if his e-bike gets stolen, but the majority of the population cannot. It also sucks that the majority of said population is also made to feel like it is its fault for not riding this type of bikes instead of driving their SH cars to work and back.
- itamarst 3y ago
  There are electric folding bikes you can take inside with you.
- blamazon 3y ago
  The first problem you outline has a very simple solution: insurance. Just like cars. E-bikes can also be leased, to lower the barrier to entry. As an alternative to providing costly downtown parking, many employers in USA subsidize month-to-month e-bike leases with a final cost of like 30 bucks a month.
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Bicycle theft insurance costs approximately ten percent the cost of the bicycle, per month. Which should tell you how good an idea it is to leave one unattended.
    - deleted 3y ago
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    - woah 3y ago
      I am insuring a $5000 bicycle against theft in San Francisco, and it costs 0.5% the cost of the bike every month. I have no idea where you are getting these insane numbers from
    - manmal 3y ago
paulhart 3y ago
Pity about Van Moof though - and the owners if the cloud service disappears and they can’t ride their bikes any more. https://electrek.co/2023/07/12/dutch-e-bike-company-vanmoof-makes-effort-to-avoid-bankruptcy/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/12/dutch-e-bike-company-vanmoof-... [German]: https://zug.network/@moritzkraehe/110716829137328870 https://zug.network/@moritzkraehe/110716829137328870
- planb 3y ago
  This is not true, even if it’s repeated a zillion times everywhere. As long as you don’t change your phone, smart unlock works without internet connection. And there is already third party software (which needs to connect to the Vanmoof servers once to save the key though). But you can always unlock by entering your code using the button. The real problem is that these bikes break every 20 km and there will be no parts or service anymore.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    "As long as you don’t change your phone" being a requirement for continuing to use the bike I paid for is ludicrous. That said I saw this in an article just yesterday, maybe it solves the problem created by techbros wanting to build smart 'everythings': https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bikey-app/id6451117309 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bikey-app/id6451117309
- mulmen 3y ago
  Definitely a shame. After reading the article I thought the S3 looked neat and was disappointed to see it is no longer available. The new model is ugly and uninteresting.
- hooverd 3y ago
  They're putting DRM in everything these days.
- marssaxman 3y ago
itsagavin 3y ago
Anecdotally it seems like these things are causing a crazy amount of head injuries. I get all the tales from the ICU at the dinner table and if I had kids I don't know if I would even let them hang out with another kid if they had an ebike. They seem super cool and I always stop to watch someone zoom buy but I can't help but notice that a lot of the people on ebikes shouldn't be going that fast and aren't built to take a spill.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  I don’t think this can be ignored. The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. I’ve seen people crash then who clearly thought they were stopping, but who were holding the throttle. They were riding a motorcycle without motorcycle training. Torque-assist pedal systems are perfectly intuitive to anyone who knows how to ride a regular bike. The power isn’t the problem, it’s the human interface.
  - readingistuff 3y ago
    You also need a higher quality, impact rated helmet. I'm sure plenty of folks buy am expensive bike and the cheapest helmet.
    - analog31 3y ago
      This could be a new market. Presently, there's no motorsport rated bike helmet. You can buy a motorcycle helmet, but it's a heavy, cumbersome beast. Or a bike helmet that comes with virtually no useful rating system except for the Virginia Tech rating program.
      - mtmail 3y ago
        https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html Freeride/Enduro/Downhill helmets exist (https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/ https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/) but nobody has come up with a rating yet afaik. I own one, and it probably saved my life at least once, but can understand how nobody wants to wear one outside a downhill bike park.
the_snooze 3y ago
> Depending on which country you live in top speeds will differ. In Japan the bike’s are capped at 24km/h. In America, 32km/h. Some places only allow for pedal-assist — meaning the motor only works when pedaling. Others allow throttles, blurring the line between bike and scooter. I’m lucky enough to live somewhere that I use a regular human-powered bike for my workweek commute. I think pedal-assist e-bikes are great for making this accessible to more people. But I’ve seen too many Class 3 throttle-equipped e-bikes (really, motorcycles) blasting by on mixed-use trails to want stricter regulations on what counts as a bike.
- deleted 3y ago
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- atahanacar 3y ago
  >pedal-assist e-bikes are great for making this accessible to more people They also make every excuse against bike infrastructure invalid.
- pornel 3y ago
  I'm annoyed at these limits as I drive my bike on the streets, and the ebikes are not allowed to keep up with the traffic. In the UK the slowest speed limit for cars is 20mph, and ebikes cap out at 15mph. 1400KW Rimac is street legal, but a 0.5KW ebike is not.
  - adrianN 3y ago
    The regulations are particularly annoying since people who cycle regularly (e.g. commuters) easily exceed 15mph on a regular non-racing bike.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
Unless there is already such a thing, I want to start an open-source electric bike (well, scooter/motorcycle actually, I see the pedals as more of a hindrance to adpoption) project this Winter.
- swader999 3y ago
  Check out "endless sphere e-bike forums" and ebikes.ca.
- wyre 3y ago
  Pretty sure it needs pedals to be legally classified as a bike, otherwise it is an electric scooter and a whole separate list of laws apply, but this could vary by state and country.
  - JKCalhoun 3y ago
    That's unfortunate that that is generally the case. Many people go full-assist — twist the throttle and go. If they had to pedal significantly they would be disinclined to even ride an ebike. When the power is out, actually pedaling an ebike is one of the worst riding experiences ever. Pedals generally mean your seating position is higher, feet not touching the gourd when seated — this too will disincline a larger number of people from ebiking. We should not be putting up hurdles for ebike adoption.
    - chriswarbo 3y ago
      I agree with what you say, but would still replace the word "bike" with "moped". If it has a throttle, it is not a bike.
    - bjornasm 3y ago
      Its no longer ebike adoption if its not ebikes. What is the point of getting people to "adopt" what isn't biking?
- bjornasm 3y ago
  By not having pedals it stops being a bicycle, and you are just creating another motorvehicle in traffic, defeating any purpose of an e-bike.
0wis 3y ago
Remember that bicycle are the most efficient way to move a human, that’s where the Steve Job’s quote « Computers are bicycles for the mind » comes from [1]. This efficiency never stops to amaze me. And an electric bicycle makes it way more convenient while still being quite efficient. I share the love of electric bikes with the author and I am sure that huge progresses in UX and efficiency are it to come in the field. Would love to work on it one day ! (But hardware is hard…) I am happy to see the subject on HN frontpage. If anyone know any quirky projects on the subject, I would love to know more ! [1] : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c
- readingistuff 3y ago
  Electric bicycles are actually more efficient than bicycles (which are themselves more efficient than walking). The combination of human power and electric assist uses less total energy than human power alone!
  - rpozarickij 3y ago
    I wonder how is it possible to use less total energy? If you need to apply an amount of energy to travel a given distance, the amount can't be that different whether the energy comes from muscles or from an electric motor (or a combination of both). These are different sources of energy, but it's still energy. I'd imagine the movement of the legs while pedalling would affect the aerodynamics, but is there something else happening?
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      I would suspect regenerative braking (assuming that this is actually true).
      - qwytw 3y ago
        Do e-bikes generally have regenerative breaking? I assumed that given their weight the amount of energy captured would be very low also bikes have very different braking patterns compared to cars (unless maybe if you're going downhill and don't want to go too fast).
sottol 3y ago
I like Craig Mod's writing style. The last product he praised that I've also seen posted here on HN was the Leica Q... I still want it. (Still too expensive to justify)
gerbilly 3y ago
Unpopular opinion: Ride a regular bike. In terms of theft, just use a beater bike for commuting. By getting rid of the 'E' part of the bike, you'll get more exercise and won't have to worry about theft. For years I rode a beater that I found in the garbage and that I fixed up with some parts I had lying around. Later I upgraded to a singlespeed because derailleurs freeze up in the winter. It's a trek earl. Seriously bikes are so ridiculously efficient why do we need to add batteries and motors and geegaws to them?
- antiframe 3y ago
  Some people live in hilly areas. Taking a child to school can go from "nope unless you are top 1% fit people in the world" to "quite the workout". You can turn the motor off on flat terrain.
- Renaud 3y ago
  It’s true, but also not true. E-bikes allow a lot of people to cycle who otherwise wouldn’t ride at all. If you’re reasonably fit, or only use your normal bike on routes you are confident you can ride at your fitness level, then do that with a normal bike. E-bikes will however free you from doubting you can achieve whatever is in front of you, and that removes a powerful barrier that prevent a lot of people from using bikes at all. I see lots of elderly people and people of all shapes travelling long distances on e-bikes. Maybe you don’t get 100% of the benefits of human-powered travel, but if you use the assistance sparingly, you easily get 70-80% of the benefit. I set le lowest level of assistance of mine to only 15%. Helps me lug the 60lbs of stuff I carry with me on my journeys and I still get a good cardio pushing myself, riding a few hours a day. I do use a normal bike sometimes, and prefer them for agility and for the pleasure of feeling lighter, but my e-bike is taking me farther and faster (and I’ve lost 15lbs since last year and never felt better in my life than I do now).
- nicbou 3y ago
  Try both, seriously. I rented e-bikes to show relatives around, and they're fantastic if you can't or won't exercise that day. Sometimes it can make the difference between taking the bike or the car. I see so many people on e-bikes that wouldn't ride a bicycle at all otherwise, and I think "good for them".
YarickR2 3y ago
I can wax poetic the same about my cars; what's the point ?
- dermesser 3y ago
  Go ahead then, we'll read it if it's poetic enough!
mulmen 3y ago
I'm glad Americans are (re-)discovering the motorcycle. It's like the 1960s all over again. But this time instead of Hondas it's e-bikes. I just hope they take a safety class and stay on the road where they belong.
- nicbou 3y ago
  I have a motorcycle and a bicycle. They're not comparable. After riding my motorcycle in almost every European and Central Asian country, I'm about to sell it because every nice motorcycle day is a better bicycle day. My motorcycle is stuck on the road. I can ride my bicycle to the lake and back along nice trails. All of my friends have bicycles, so they can come too. I can also ride my bicycle wearing shorts and a t-shirt, and not lug a helmet around all day. I don't need thousands of euros worth of heavy, hot equipment. I don't need ear plugs that still leave me with tinnitus. I don't pay insurance or plates. I don't worry about inspections every other year or oil changes or tired. I need only five tools to fix everything myself, and it's dirt cheap. I'm over my motorcycle phase, but I'll ride a bicycle until I'm physically unable to.
  - mulmen 3y ago
    So do I. I have ridden both. Class 3 e-bikes are mopeds at a minimum. I see them on mixed use bike paths daily, going 20mph or more.
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      I was literally just on a bike/walk trail in seattle on my e-bike, probably going about 15mph and a non-e-bike blew past me like I was standing still. I'd guess he was clocking around 30mph. While e-bikes certainly can contribute to a problem of unsafe biking on a trail, they are not the only source of that problem.
      - mulmen 3y ago
        Yes but I see a lot more e-bikes doing that than conventional cyclists. I attribute it to the very thing that is beneficial about e-bikes. They attract people who don't otherwise ride bikes. At least in my neighborhood (Alki) the fast cyclists stick to the road. The scooters are the real menace. I see more mishaps on those than anything else.
CalRobert 3y ago
The single most exciting thing about moving to the Netherlands next month is getting to ride an electric bakfiets with my kids every single day.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  You won't be disappointed, and that feeling will not fade. I grew up in the US but live in the Netherlands, and when I see parents riding around with their kids and pets in an electric bakfiets, on bike paths along city and country roads, and on paths through the parks, I am so benevolently jealous of them. The kids always look so delighted, having the time of their lives, and the parents are so healthy and fit! I can highly recommend getting an electric bakfiets with an Enviolo NuVinci Stepless Automatic Transmission Hub. It's a gearless continuously variable planetary hub, with an automatic transmission, that can change gears while you're stopped, automatically shifting from high into low gear when you stop at an intersection, then smoothly shifting up as you accelerate. Yes, it can actually shift while stopped, and while you're accelerating, and it's perfectly smooth. Get a carbon fiber belt drive instead of a chain if you can, too. Low maintenance, long life, and grease free! Your kids will be safer and you will be much happier concentrating on driving and navigating instead of shifting gears, especially if you tend to forget to shift into low gear before stopping, which is a potential disaster with a normal derailleur and a bakfiets full of kids at a busy intersection, but not a problem with an automatic continuous transmission. https://www.urbanebikes.nl/cargo-l-enviolo-automatic https://www.urbanebikes.nl/cargo-l-enviolo-automatic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiXwhjlSMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiXwhjlSMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ2f08RHD1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ2f08RHD1Y
  - nerdbert 3y ago
    I've ridden the Citibikes with the gearless hubs, and I assume they wouldn't install something that breaks down easily, but it's so hard for me to imagine that something like that isn't a maintenance headache waiting to happen. I do love the experience of using it though.
  - CalRobert 3y ago
    Thanks for the tip!
rcpt 3y ago
Greatest thing about bikes, and this still applies to ebikes, is that you actually experience and participate in the city you live in. You learn the small roads, you see other people and they see you, you spot tiny businesses and interesting parks. I lived in Los Angeles without a car for a few years. I often met people who lived here much longer but knew almost nothing about the local area despite having intimate knowledge of freeway off ramps. Cars are just so isolating. It's no wonder we see so much unhinged antisocial behavior from drivers.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  I know people who can't get around without a car with GPS navigation. They do not know the way to the shops or their friends' houses. It's interesting to me that road rage is non-existent between cyclists and pedestrians. It seems to be a manifestation of the frustration of being reduced to a metal box with a monotone horn, a couple of lights and the ability to go forwards and backwards. On a bike you're still a person.
  - kookdonk 3y ago
    I have the opposite experience actually - majority of road "rage" incidents, which have only been contained to near misses or yelling, have been with pedestrians. Bike paths are ignored by pedestrians, they'll walk right in or through them, even when they look and see a bike coming. Pedestrians think they always have the right of way, and its very dangerous. This is in an American city though, btw, reflecting American city culture.
  - isoprophlex 3y ago
    If you are a tourist in a Dutch city you will quickly be disabused of the notion that there is no road rage between pedestrians and cyclists. Do not ever idly wander into a Dutch cycle lane, at any cost. You will be treated as invisible, people will cycle straight through you. Should they for some reason take notice of you, they will not slow down one bit, but swerve away imperceptibly, infinitesimally, from a collision, thus making sure you are sufficiently rattled by the encounter.
foobarbazetc 3y ago
True. Biking is the best thing ever (also extremely expensive). I spent a ridiculous amount on a Gazelle HMB 380+. It’s so much fun to ride. Every component is top quality. No maintenance issues ever. Recently got a carbon fiber road bike from a Taiwanese factory. Just as fun. Weighs 7.9kg. I will say when I tested the VanMoof I hated everything about it. The automatic shifter is extremely counterintuitive. The parts suck, a lot. Shimano hydraulic disc breaks are pretty much set it and forget it type things, so I personally wouldn’t form an opinion of the quality of disc breaks based on the VanMoof.
monkaiju 3y ago
God i Love my copenhagen wheel so much, gonna be really devastated when it dies to a point that i cant fix it since Superpedestrian discontinued them
pmg102 3y ago
In the UK, as in Europe and Australia I believe, Ebikes ("pedelecs") are legally limited to assistance only up to 15mph=25kph (it's possible to exceed this downhill, of course). As someone used to riding a regular pedal bike, I would say this is close to but not quite fast enough to feel comfortable among urban traffic. Yet raising the limit to say 20mph could feel arguably unsafely fast on a shared use path through a park. It's a dilemma.
- fulafel 3y ago
  There are also the 45 km/h s-pedelecs in EU, maybe still in the UK too.
  - pmg102 3y ago
    There are, although it's a bureaucratic palaver in the UK getting them registered, taxed, insured and legal. And then they, like mopeds, aren't allowed on cycle paths or in cycle lanes... In short, losing much of the freedom that makes bicycles such fun.
analog31 3y ago
I've been cycling for 50+ years, and bike advocacy predates e-bikes by decades. I'm guilty myself. But I try not to oversell cycling as a universal solution to transportation, because it isn't. I also don't promise people that it will change their lives. Getting them on a bike at all is enough of a hurdle. These days, I advocate e-bikes, though I don't own one myself, because I figure the people who will ride a conventional bike are already doing so.
johnwatson11218 3y ago
I have had three eBikes and I have no doubt they are the future. They are where the internet was in the 90s. My electric mountain bike has been wonderful but all the normal parts like gears, brakes, and tires wear out much faster. One of my local bike shops has allowed me to trade in bikes towards the purchase of even better bikes and that helped shape my experience. If I were going to get a new one today it would most likely be the surly skid loader.
notthemessiah 3y ago
Most people seem to complain about the weather or humidity. I find that riding on a busy street, the noxious automobile emissions are the biggest source of displeasure when I'm physically exerting myself (breathing faster just makes me inhale more of the fumes). This is what the e-bike has freed me most of. That and being able to accelerate faster than my muscles can has enabled me to keep up with motor traffic. That said, most of these points would be moot if the US had dedicated bike lanes separate from automobile traffic.
carabiner 3y ago
What are people's experiences with folding e-bikes? I'm most interested in the Gocycle, but it costs as much as a used car. This Siggi https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/siggi-unfold-everyday-life-folding-e-bike/x/30201457#/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/siggi-unfold-everyday-lif... looks great and only weighs 13 kg but has all the risks of a crowdfunding project (massive delays and initial quality issues). It's the first I've seen with regenerative braking, and you can pedal backwards to charge it.
- chriswarbo 3y ago
  They're useful on the train (my commute's train didn't allow nonfolding bikes, since the line heads to/from London which makes it crowded). I previously left my acoustic bike locked at the station all day; but wouldn't dare with an ebike, so I got a folder.
  - schubart 3y ago
    “Acoustic bike” as opposed to e-bike… I’ll steal that!
    - chriswarbo 3y ago
      I took it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36748080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36748080 but have seen it used occasionally elsewhere (e.g. Reddit's r/fuckcars )
- dharma1 3y ago
  I test rode a folding Brompton e-bike in London and am tempted. I heard they are working on a version with slightly larger wheels which would be great, but no word on launch date - could be a while.
- type0 3y ago
  You get what you pay for in foldable e-bikes
zwilliamson 3y ago
I have owned a Riese and Muller Load 60 (bucket cargo bike) for over 3 years now. It is the love of my life. My dog rides with me everywhere. Living the good life. So simple but so satisfying. I have the same exact feeling every time I ride my cargo bike as I did the first day I rode it. An exciting open to the world feeling. It has never wore off. It allowed me to really experience the cities I’ve lived in.
rollinDyno 3y ago
I am considering buying an e-bike. However, I live in NYC and have access to Citibikes. I am a member so I can ride regular bikes for free and pay pennies for short trips on last-gen bikes. So if I pay $1000 for a Roadster V2, what exactly am I getting? Sure, Citibike can be inconvenient: sometimes I won't find a good bike and sometimes I won't be able to park. For this, I'm not sure it's worth paying the prize. Having my own bike also exposes me to risk of theft and having to carry it in and out of my apartment (I don't currently have bike storage in my building). Hence, it seems like I've already found my optimal solution.
lacrimacida 3y ago
Im in love with my EUC - electric unicycle. The learning curve is steepish only for the first half hour then tops off in about a couple of hours training. Pros: hands are free to carry items, it’s fun to ride, easier than walking after a few days of training. Good for training a good posture. Cons: lack of physical exertion, you’re basically standing on a floating platform with a wheel in the middle. All in all I highly recommend it for running errands or just pure fun. Another pro is that it’s so small you can easily take it indoors so no risk of them getting stolen.
carrozo 3y ago
“Riding a bike is one of the few activities left to modern man that gives the experience of operating a contraption, rather than a gadget or a gizmo” https://twitter.com/boltzmannbooty/status/1426928471670919176?s=46&t=ErgHAJ97Wg9Eh5pEqiNKOg https://twitter.com/boltzmannbooty/status/142692847167091917...
semireg 3y ago
Anyone living in Brussels know the best way for my wife and I to rent e-bikes for a few days in city center?
ptman 3y ago
I'm excitedly waiting for electric velomobiles to become more common. Like podbike.com. It's still an assisted bike (pedelec) according to regulation
nojvek 3y ago
Had an electric skateboard first, then electric bike, then electric scooter I really love the electric scooter. It folds into a small space. I had a bad fall on the electric skateboard and traded electric bike for a v light weight race bike. Author is correct, Electric scooter/bike are some kind of magic cheat code. Take very little electricity, cheap to buy and great for the last mile commute. Although they do suck when it’s rainy or you need to carry more. I’m looking forward to someone guiding 1-2 passenger, something with A/C mini electric vehicles. Tesla selling $50k vehicles seems crazy to me, some with other electric car manufacturers. I think there’s a great niche for light weight personal vehicles meant for city driving.
electric_chives 3y ago
I'm so torn on my ebike. On one hand, all the good points are true; it's a blast, it opens the city up to you, and its a great way to get around. All that said, mine has been doing nothing but gathering dust in the basement. Aside from 'pleasure cruise' there is no valid use case for the damned thing, at least in my city. Locking it, especially securing every valuable component on it, is unfeasible and would add ~20 lbs to my pack weight just to lock it. All efforts at creating bike storage lockers have failed, as it became common knowledge that the fragile sheet metal is effectively a lootbox for the taking. My roadbike on the other hand, cost $100, can be maintained with a small pouch of tools, enjoys effectively infinite range, and is unassuming enough to remain undisturbed at a lock post. It's a shame, because I'm a big believer in electric micro-mobility vehicles, but the security and usage issues means that the Bird scooters blighting our sidewalks are about the most workable solution we have at the moment.
btbuildem 3y ago
I like the poetic sing-songy tone of the article -- it does convey the joy of moving through the world on a bike. An electric one, even more so. My city has a rental bike system (Bixi, or City Bike elsewhere) and they're clunky tanks, made to be abused. In the past couple of years they've expanded their fleet with e-assist bikes. They're amazing. They're still unwieldy tanks, but the boost makes them fly up hills with little effort. In my limited experience with different types of e-bikes, the ones where you need to pedal to make them go seem better than the ones with some kind of a throttle / lever etc. The act of pedalling engages the rider more completely than sliding some thumb lever, it feels safer and more connected with the ride.
juancn 3y ago
"Find a local bike shop that will let you try out several electric bikes" where I live no shop is going to let you try one. Not even a regular bike, you want to try? Buy it. Heck, you normally can't even get a test drive when buying a new car.

241 points by ingve 3y ago

> The first time I rode one was nearly a decade ago, in Kyoto. This isn't quite the primary thrust of the article but if you travel to Kyoto I highly recommend renting a e-bicycle to see the area. I will never forget the 2 days that my partner and I spent riding around there. I can recommend 'Fuune bicycle rental shop' - the proprietor will helpfully annotate a map for you with recommended routes and explain all the turns and paths with a translator device.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

It amazes me how little attention e-bikes are given in terms of reducing traffic, pollution, CO2 etc. The BBC is especially bad at this - they promote lots of articles singing the praises of electric vehicles (i.e. cars) and almost never mention e-bikes as being far better for a lot of use cases. It also grinds my gears that there's tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes. It's almost as if politicians are employed by car manufacturers.

blamazon 3y ago
Social researchers have dubbed this phenomenon "motonormativity"[1] and it is remarkably powerful. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativity-britons-more-accepting-driving-related-risk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativit...
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Also disparagingly known as car-brain.
  - blamazon 3y ago
    Perhaps to defuse the denigrative aspect of the term we should think of it as analogous to the 'lizard brain' as not a disease but something of an interior module we all have within us - on a day to day basis most people can generally introspect on the contributions of the lizard brain to our thoughts and feelings[1] , why not should we similarly introspect on the car brain and think on a similarly higher order level? [1] Tangential reading: 'Why Buddhism is True' by Robert Wight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511
kfarr 3y ago
Agreed, and it comes to life when you ask anyone guess the most popular electric vehicle. It’s not a tesla, it’s an ebike. The good news is that even without mainstream press e-bikes are significantly outselling electric cars
bluescrn 3y ago
Unless bike theft is solved, an e-bike will remain a toy for the weekends for most people. An expensive e-bike is a prime target to thieves. They require a secure indoor storage space at both ends of the any journey, and many potential users lack that, either at their workplace or their home (e.g living in an apartment only accessible via stairs)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- blamazon 3y ago
  Cars once upon a time required a secure storage space for security. Technology improved, comprehensive insurance became a social norm, etc, and now you can just snug it against a curb, hop out of your car and press a button and generally not worry about theft, but if it does happen you're covered. Why can't e-bikes be this way? My answer: they can and are, just not all of them yet.
  - c22 3y ago
    I put a two-way car alarm on my ebike and it works exactly like this.
  - bluescrn 3y ago
    Car theft is rather more policed because a 2-ton 100mph+ car can easily kill or cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands. Bike theft is down there with shoplifting or recreational drug use when it comes to policing priorities. But when a bike is stolen, often a person is losing an important means of transportation, so perhaps it should be taken more seriously. Not going to happen in a ‘soft on crime’ society, though.
    - blamazon 3y ago
      I propose, somewhat tautologically, that the primary reason why car theft is generally well policed (in USA, where my lived experiences have primarily been) is that it's generally a small enough problem for most police departments to get their arms around because of basic anti theft technology. I believe the Kia/Hyundai debacle of the last few years supports this idea: > So far this year, Minneapolis police have received 1,899 Kia and Hyundai theft reports, nearly 18 times the number for the same period in 2022. [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8e0a353d24be0e7bce36e34c5e4dac51 https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8...
zdragnar 3y ago
I would love to get some e-bikes for my family. However, they're not terribly useful aside from recreation for us. We don't live in an urban or even suburban area. Bikes are a local thing. If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. Cars appeal nationwide. They'll get you hundreds of miles, comfortably, between remote destinations that aren't served by public transport or airports. Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. If you think your area would be better off if tax breaks went to e-bikes, write your city and state governments. Depending on where you live, they're already taking upwards of 10% or more of your income, plus taxing the goods you buy and the land you live on.
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  They're of course not the solution for every transportation need, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere, but two things: > If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck. I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be. The Netherlands is famously windy and rainy and Oulu, Finland has snow 5 months out of the year, but nevertheless lots of people cycle in both places. But yes, if your bike lanes and paths are unmaintained (or worse, have all the street's snow plowed into them) it won't be attractive to cycle in the winter. That's a question of infrastructure and priorities though, it's not the weather alone. > Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family. I ride an Urban Arrow Family, and it works fine for bringing home lots of groceries.
  - readingistuff 3y ago
    I live in Seattle, and it's really pretty easy to get a shell for rain and cold. Or shorts for heat.
    - zdragnar 3y ago
      Seattle has a very temperate climate (relatively speaking) so the last paragraph of my post applies quite well there.
  - 3y ago
Renaud 3y ago
In France, many cities and regions offer non-negligible subsidies to locals wanting to purchase an e-bikes (I think it also works for regular bikes). These schemes have boosted the adoption of e-bikes and most cities, big and small, have been playing catch-up to provide bike lanes in and around city centres. Currently travelling across France along canals and rivers and the network is pretty extensive all over the country. It’s basically the same story all over Europe (and the UK), with varying degrees of coverage.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Here in the UK, I gaze longingly over the Channel at France and their promotion of cycling, especially in Paris.
  - dazc 3y ago
    Cheeky
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      I'd like to be able to legally RLJ as in Paris: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868
karaterobot 3y ago
I love my e-bike (and feel like I have to point that out in threads like this), but while the use cases for them are many, they do not realistically replace ICE cars for most people. They just don't. People with families need cars, and would never forego owning one (or two, or even three) of them just because they have the option of riding electric bikes. That's why electric and hybrid electric cars remain a big deal.
- turdprincess 3y ago
  Replacing the car completely is unrealistic. Replacing a second car - totally possible. The folks who are buying electric cars are often buying it as a second car anyways since they still need the ICE car for bigger trips. Those folks could probably get by with one ICE car and a couple of e-bikes, which would be cheaper, healthier and more fun.
  - MrJohz 3y ago
    The other side of this is the potential for car-sharing, reducing the total number of cars around, but allowing people to still make more infrequent journeys by car when that's necessary (or just easier). If your bike is enough for all your regular weekly journeys, you can rent a car for holidays, or visiting friends and family further away.
- MrJohz 3y ago
  Living in a city in Germany, a lot of families cycle with their children. Typically babies and young children have a seat on the handlebars or in a small trailer on the back, older children either have a tandem-style attachment or their own bike. The various attachments are typically fairly generic, so should work for both regular and electric bikes. You can also buy (or rent) tricycle-style bikes that have a large space at the front to carry heavier loads - children, pets, or just shopping. I assume there are electric versions of these as well. In fairness, most of this assumes that the city is reasonably bike accessible, mainly in terms of having all the necessary amenities within a cycle ride from home. If you live in suburbs, this may not be as possible. But I think that says more about the inadequacy of poorly planned cities than that of electric bikes.
alsuren 3y ago
> tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes Cycle to work schemes let you buy a bike before income tax. I'm not sure how that compares to e-car tax breaks though. All your employer if they have such a scheme.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) and you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period. The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) and also the last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. (I'm not looking to buy an e-bike as I'm more of an acoustic cyclist)
  - dazc 3y ago
    It's a tax break which is 100% not enforced. You don't even have to actually cycle to work.
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      I think it would make more sense to reduce or remove VAT from bikes and cycling accessories instead. Far less paperwork and it would immediately open the benefits to everyone rather than being targetted towards the MAMIL (MAWIL?) segment though I consider myself a MAMIL.
  - chriswarbo 3y ago
    > The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) That's just a technicality, I assume to make it comply with other laws about using company money to buy personal items. Payments are deducted from your pre-tax earnings each month, so the saving come from paying less income tax; you can't give the company a wad of cash up-front, or have it all come out of one month's salary. > you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period They will always give you the bike: Cycle to Work schemes are offered as an employee benefit, the company doesn't want the bike. More important is what happens if you leave the company before that period; e.g. when a previous employer folded I had some some balance remaining to pay (around £500), which was deducted from my redundancy payment. > The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) That's certainly true, and probably the main reason to avoid it (as an employer). Still, it's not much different to having surplus office furniture; at the higher-end, I imagine it's similar to an employee requiring some specialist desk chair, which the company can sell off afterwards. > he last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000. It varies per employer, e.g. I got one up to £1500. More annoying is that it must cover the full price: e.g. you can't pay £100 cash to get a £1600 ebike (although some sellers may fiddle the price tag to get around this!)
criddell 3y ago
> nothing for getting e-bikes Where I live in Texas there’s a $800 rebate for e-bikes.

wildekek 3y ago

I made my own electric bike by purchasing a brand new Stevens City Flyer and mounting a TongSheng Tsdz2 Mid Drive motor to it. It is light, fast, and really easy to maintain. I've been riding it daily for the past 3 years and it has brought me so much joy. It changed where I can live and work. I'm running open source software, so the top speed is only thermally limited. https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1 https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1

ornornor 3y ago
Different bike but same motor, it’s a great setup :)

Rnonymous 3y ago

Coincidentally, this past week, VanMoof, the X3 discussed in the article, closed all stores and are on the edge of bankruptcy, with a lot of media attention in the Netherlands. Beautiful smart bikes, but the quality of components is horrible.

mulmen 3y ago
Yeah very disappointing. I'm e-bike curious but they're all so _ugly_. Something with VanMoof style and a "dumb" drive system would be perfect. Give me a conventional derailleur-and-cassette in the back and an electric drive up front without screaming "this is an e-bike!" in my face and I would be the first in line.
- SmellTheGlove 3y ago
  I have a Rad City and I kinda like how stupid looking it is - especially the step through model, which I definitely have. But the nice part is that the bike components are all regular parts. Rad seems to be having serious issues as a company, which is a shame because for the price they’re good frames - but if they go under, it’s not like I relied on them for parts or service anyway. Anyway digression aside, you might be happiest starting with a bike you like and doing your own conversion - either with a hub motor or a mid drive. Or have a look at REI - their ebike selection mostly look like bikes, with the advantage that they’ll also service them. That’s helpful if the manufacturer kicks it.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    I have the rad-expand, which also looks 'stupid' but I love it anyways. But yeah it's great that they didn't go the way of vanmoof with an app required to unlock it etc. If they do in fact go under my only concern would be a replacement battery I guess? Or is that all standardized (it looks similar to the batteries on all the rent-to-ride e-bikes I see around).
    - SmellTheGlove 3y ago

swader999 3y ago

E bikes really are the best form of travel. The only issue is how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face. You just had a huge rush, got a bit of exercise, paid nothing for parking, eight pennies for 'gas', and beat all your co-workers who were stuck in traffic. The grin is real and not a good look professionally at the office when commuting. Thanks ebikes.ca, endless sphere forums and Sheldon Brown. True spirit of the internet.

LoganDark 3y ago
> The only issue is how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face. You just had a huge rush, got a bit of exercise, paid nothing for parking, eight pennies for 'gas', and beat all your co-workers who were stuck in traffic. The grin is real and not a good look professionally at the office when commuting. This is the most hilarious non-satire comment I've read in a while. The grin is indeed an issue
- swader999 3y ago
  Thanks, I don't have the tech chops most of you have so I try to help out in odd places wherever I can.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    I haven’t experienced it first hand, but I had one as I read your comment :D
- SmellTheGlove 3y ago
  Ive been enjoying RTO because most of my commute is via the Elliott Bay Trail in Seattle. It really does put me in a different mood for the day.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    I'm in ballard and my company has an office downtown. Two weeks back I needed to go in for a day as my home internet was down and decided to take my cargo ebike (it's been lovely out). I'm not sure I'd want to commute on a cargo bike every day, but it was a great ride, both ways, along the ship canal trail. (Little detour on the way home down to figurehead brewing to hit up the midnite ramen truck for dinner)

paganel 3y ago

There is no way for me to let a ~2000 euros object of mine unattended and out in the open. I barely leave my current bike like that, and that "only" costs ~300 euros. More generally, I feel like this is a subject that doesn't get discussed often enough. Yes, most probably the writer of this article can eat the 2000 euros loss if his e-bike gets stolen, but the majority of the population cannot. It also sucks that the majority of said population is also made to feel like it is its fault for not riding this type of bikes instead of driving their SH cars to work and back.

itamarst 3y ago
There are electric folding bikes you can take inside with you.
blamazon 3y ago
The first problem you outline has a very simple solution: insurance. Just like cars. E-bikes can also be leased, to lower the barrier to entry. As an alternative to providing costly downtown parking, many employers in USA subsidize month-to-month e-bike leases with a final cost of like 30 bucks a month.
- Filligree 3y ago
  Bicycle theft insurance costs approximately ten percent the cost of the bicycle, per month. Which should tell you how good an idea it is to leave one unattended.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - woah 3y ago
    I am insuring a $5000 bicycle against theft in San Francisco, and it costs 0.5% the cost of the bike every month. I have no idea where you are getting these insane numbers from
  - manmal 3y ago

paulhart 3y ago

Pity about Van Moof though - and the owners if the cloud service disappears and they can’t ride their bikes any more. https://electrek.co/2023/07/12/dutch-e-bike-company-vanmoof-makes-effort-to-avoid-bankruptcy/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/12/dutch-e-bike-company-vanmoof-... [German]: https://zug.network/@moritzkraehe/110716829137328870 https://zug.network/@moritzkraehe/110716829137328870

planb 3y ago
This is not true, even if it’s repeated a zillion times everywhere. As long as you don’t change your phone, smart unlock works without internet connection. And there is already third party software (which needs to connect to the Vanmoof servers once to save the key though). But you can always unlock by entering your code using the button. The real problem is that these bikes break every 20 km and there will be no parts or service anymore.
- deleted 3y ago
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- sleepybrett 3y ago
  "As long as you don’t change your phone" being a requirement for continuing to use the bike I paid for is ludicrous. That said I saw this in an article just yesterday, maybe it solves the problem created by techbros wanting to build smart 'everythings': https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bikey-app/id6451117309 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bikey-app/id6451117309
mulmen 3y ago
Definitely a shame. After reading the article I thought the S3 looked neat and was disappointed to see it is no longer available. The new model is ugly and uninteresting.
hooverd 3y ago
They're putting DRM in everything these days.
marssaxman 3y ago

itsagavin 3y ago

Anecdotally it seems like these things are causing a crazy amount of head injuries. I get all the tales from the ICU at the dinner table and if I had kids I don't know if I would even let them hang out with another kid if they had an ebike. They seem super cool and I always stop to watch someone zoom buy but I can't help but notice that a lot of the people on ebikes shouldn't be going that fast and aren't built to take a spill.

jeffbee 3y ago
I don’t think this can be ignored. The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. I’ve seen people crash then who clearly thought they were stopping, but who were holding the throttle. They were riding a motorcycle without motorcycle training. Torque-assist pedal systems are perfectly intuitive to anyone who knows how to ride a regular bike. The power isn’t the problem, it’s the human interface.
- readingistuff 3y ago
  You also need a higher quality, impact rated helmet. I'm sure plenty of folks buy am expensive bike and the cheapest helmet.
  - analog31 3y ago
    This could be a new market. Presently, there's no motorsport rated bike helmet. You can buy a motorcycle helmet, but it's a heavy, cumbersome beast. Or a bike helmet that comes with virtually no useful rating system except for the Virginia Tech rating program.
    - mtmail 3y ago
      https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html Freeride/Enduro/Downhill helmets exist (https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/ https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/) but nobody has come up with a rating yet afaik. I own one, and it probably saved my life at least once, but can understand how nobody wants to wear one outside a downhill bike park.

the_snooze 3y ago

> Depending on which country you live in top speeds will differ. In Japan the bike’s are capped at 24km/h. In America, 32km/h. Some places only allow for pedal-assist — meaning the motor only works when pedaling. Others allow throttles, blurring the line between bike and scooter. I’m lucky enough to live somewhere that I use a regular human-powered bike for my workweek commute. I think pedal-assist e-bikes are great for making this accessible to more people. But I’ve seen too many Class 3 throttle-equipped e-bikes (really, motorcycles) blasting by on mixed-use trails to want stricter regulations on what counts as a bike.

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atahanacar 3y ago
>pedal-assist e-bikes are great for making this accessible to more people They also make every excuse against bike infrastructure invalid.
pornel 3y ago
I'm annoyed at these limits as I drive my bike on the streets, and the ebikes are not allowed to keep up with the traffic. In the UK the slowest speed limit for cars is 20mph, and ebikes cap out at 15mph. 1400KW Rimac is street legal, but a 0.5KW ebike is not.
- adrianN 3y ago
  The regulations are particularly annoying since people who cycle regularly (e.g. commuters) easily exceed 15mph on a regular non-racing bike.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

Unless there is already such a thing, I want to start an open-source electric bike (well, scooter/motorcycle actually, I see the pedals as more of a hindrance to adpoption) project this Winter.

swader999 3y ago
Check out "endless sphere e-bike forums" and ebikes.ca.
wyre 3y ago
Pretty sure it needs pedals to be legally classified as a bike, otherwise it is an electric scooter and a whole separate list of laws apply, but this could vary by state and country.
- JKCalhoun 3y ago
  That's unfortunate that that is generally the case. Many people go full-assist — twist the throttle and go. If they had to pedal significantly they would be disinclined to even ride an ebike. When the power is out, actually pedaling an ebike is one of the worst riding experiences ever. Pedals generally mean your seating position is higher, feet not touching the gourd when seated — this too will disincline a larger number of people from ebiking. We should not be putting up hurdles for ebike adoption.
  - chriswarbo 3y ago
    I agree with what you say, but would still replace the word "bike" with "moped". If it has a throttle, it is not a bike.
  - bjornasm 3y ago
    Its no longer ebike adoption if its not ebikes. What is the point of getting people to "adopt" what isn't biking?
bjornasm 3y ago
By not having pedals it stops being a bicycle, and you are just creating another motorvehicle in traffic, defeating any purpose of an e-bike.

0wis 3y ago

Remember that bicycle are the most efficient way to move a human, that’s where the Steve Job’s quote « Computers are bicycles for the mind » comes from [1]. This efficiency never stops to amaze me. And an electric bicycle makes it way more convenient while still being quite efficient. I share the love of electric bikes with the author and I am sure that huge progresses in UX and efficiency are it to come in the field. Would love to work on it one day ! (But hardware is hard…) I am happy to see the subject on HN frontpage. If anyone know any quirky projects on the subject, I would love to know more ! [1] : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c

readingistuff 3y ago
Electric bicycles are actually more efficient than bicycles (which are themselves more efficient than walking). The combination of human power and electric assist uses less total energy than human power alone!
- rpozarickij 3y ago
  I wonder how is it possible to use less total energy? If you need to apply an amount of energy to travel a given distance, the amount can't be that different whether the energy comes from muscles or from an electric motor (or a combination of both). These are different sources of energy, but it's still energy. I'd imagine the movement of the legs while pedalling would affect the aerodynamics, but is there something else happening?
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    I would suspect regenerative braking (assuming that this is actually true).
    - qwytw 3y ago
      Do e-bikes generally have regenerative breaking? I assumed that given their weight the amount of energy captured would be very low also bikes have very different braking patterns compared to cars (unless maybe if you're going downhill and don't want to go too fast).

sottol 3y ago

I like Craig Mod's writing style. The last product he praised that I've also seen posted here on HN was the Leica Q... I still want it. (Still too expensive to justify)

gerbilly 3y ago

Unpopular opinion: Ride a regular bike. In terms of theft, just use a beater bike for commuting. By getting rid of the 'E' part of the bike, you'll get more exercise and won't have to worry about theft. For years I rode a beater that I found in the garbage and that I fixed up with some parts I had lying around. Later I upgraded to a singlespeed because derailleurs freeze up in the winter. It's a trek earl. Seriously bikes are so ridiculously efficient why do we need to add batteries and motors and geegaws to them?

antiframe 3y ago
Some people live in hilly areas. Taking a child to school can go from "nope unless you are top 1% fit people in the world" to "quite the workout". You can turn the motor off on flat terrain.
Renaud 3y ago
It’s true, but also not true. E-bikes allow a lot of people to cycle who otherwise wouldn’t ride at all. If you’re reasonably fit, or only use your normal bike on routes you are confident you can ride at your fitness level, then do that with a normal bike. E-bikes will however free you from doubting you can achieve whatever is in front of you, and that removes a powerful barrier that prevent a lot of people from using bikes at all. I see lots of elderly people and people of all shapes travelling long distances on e-bikes. Maybe you don’t get 100% of the benefits of human-powered travel, but if you use the assistance sparingly, you easily get 70-80% of the benefit. I set le lowest level of assistance of mine to only 15%. Helps me lug the 60lbs of stuff I carry with me on my journeys and I still get a good cardio pushing myself, riding a few hours a day. I do use a normal bike sometimes, and prefer them for agility and for the pleasure of feeling lighter, but my e-bike is taking me farther and faster (and I’ve lost 15lbs since last year and never felt better in my life than I do now).
nicbou 3y ago
Try both, seriously. I rented e-bikes to show relatives around, and they're fantastic if you can't or won't exercise that day. Sometimes it can make the difference between taking the bike or the car. I see so many people on e-bikes that wouldn't ride a bicycle at all otherwise, and I think "good for them".

YarickR2 3y ago

I can wax poetic the same about my cars; what's the point ?

dermesser 3y ago
Go ahead then, we'll read it if it's poetic enough!

mulmen 3y ago

I'm glad Americans are (re-)discovering the motorcycle. It's like the 1960s all over again. But this time instead of Hondas it's e-bikes. I just hope they take a safety class and stay on the road where they belong.

nicbou 3y ago
I have a motorcycle and a bicycle. They're not comparable. After riding my motorcycle in almost every European and Central Asian country, I'm about to sell it because every nice motorcycle day is a better bicycle day. My motorcycle is stuck on the road. I can ride my bicycle to the lake and back along nice trails. All of my friends have bicycles, so they can come too. I can also ride my bicycle wearing shorts and a t-shirt, and not lug a helmet around all day. I don't need thousands of euros worth of heavy, hot equipment. I don't need ear plugs that still leave me with tinnitus. I don't pay insurance or plates. I don't worry about inspections every other year or oil changes or tired. I need only five tools to fix everything myself, and it's dirt cheap. I'm over my motorcycle phase, but I'll ride a bicycle until I'm physically unable to.
- mulmen 3y ago
  So do I. I have ridden both. Class 3 e-bikes are mopeds at a minimum. I see them on mixed use bike paths daily, going 20mph or more.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    I was literally just on a bike/walk trail in seattle on my e-bike, probably going about 15mph and a non-e-bike blew past me like I was standing still. I'd guess he was clocking around 30mph. While e-bikes certainly can contribute to a problem of unsafe biking on a trail, they are not the only source of that problem.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      Yes but I see a lot more e-bikes doing that than conventional cyclists. I attribute it to the very thing that is beneficial about e-bikes. They attract people who don't otherwise ride bikes. At least in my neighborhood (Alki) the fast cyclists stick to the road. The scooters are the real menace. I see more mishaps on those than anything else.

CalRobert 3y ago

The single most exciting thing about moving to the Netherlands next month is getting to ride an electric bakfiets with my kids every single day.

DonHopkins 3y ago
You won't be disappointed, and that feeling will not fade. I grew up in the US but live in the Netherlands, and when I see parents riding around with their kids and pets in an electric bakfiets, on bike paths along city and country roads, and on paths through the parks, I am so benevolently jealous of them. The kids always look so delighted, having the time of their lives, and the parents are so healthy and fit! I can highly recommend getting an electric bakfiets with an Enviolo NuVinci Stepless Automatic Transmission Hub. It's a gearless continuously variable planetary hub, with an automatic transmission, that can change gears while you're stopped, automatically shifting from high into low gear when you stop at an intersection, then smoothly shifting up as you accelerate. Yes, it can actually shift while stopped, and while you're accelerating, and it's perfectly smooth. Get a carbon fiber belt drive instead of a chain if you can, too. Low maintenance, long life, and grease free! Your kids will be safer and you will be much happier concentrating on driving and navigating instead of shifting gears, especially if you tend to forget to shift into low gear before stopping, which is a potential disaster with a normal derailleur and a bakfiets full of kids at a busy intersection, but not a problem with an automatic continuous transmission. https://www.urbanebikes.nl/cargo-l-enviolo-automatic https://www.urbanebikes.nl/cargo-l-enviolo-automatic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiXwhjlSMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiXwhjlSMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ2f08RHD1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ2f08RHD1Y
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I've ridden the Citibikes with the gearless hubs, and I assume they wouldn't install something that breaks down easily, but it's so hard for me to imagine that something like that isn't a maintenance headache waiting to happen. I do love the experience of using it though.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  Thanks for the tip!

rcpt 3y ago

Greatest thing about bikes, and this still applies to ebikes, is that you actually experience and participate in the city you live in. You learn the small roads, you see other people and they see you, you spot tiny businesses and interesting parks. I lived in Los Angeles without a car for a few years. I often met people who lived here much longer but knew almost nothing about the local area despite having intimate knowledge of freeway off ramps. Cars are just so isolating. It's no wonder we see so much unhinged antisocial behavior from drivers.

globular-toast 3y ago
I know people who can't get around without a car with GPS navigation. They do not know the way to the shops or their friends' houses. It's interesting to me that road rage is non-existent between cyclists and pedestrians. It seems to be a manifestation of the frustration of being reduced to a metal box with a monotone horn, a couple of lights and the ability to go forwards and backwards. On a bike you're still a person.
- kookdonk 3y ago
  I have the opposite experience actually - majority of road "rage" incidents, which have only been contained to near misses or yelling, have been with pedestrians. Bike paths are ignored by pedestrians, they'll walk right in or through them, even when they look and see a bike coming. Pedestrians think they always have the right of way, and its very dangerous. This is in an American city though, btw, reflecting American city culture.
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  If you are a tourist in a Dutch city you will quickly be disabused of the notion that there is no road rage between pedestrians and cyclists. Do not ever idly wander into a Dutch cycle lane, at any cost. You will be treated as invisible, people will cycle straight through you. Should they for some reason take notice of you, they will not slow down one bit, but swerve away imperceptibly, infinitesimally, from a collision, thus making sure you are sufficiently rattled by the encounter.

foobarbazetc 3y ago

True. Biking is the best thing ever (also extremely expensive). I spent a ridiculous amount on a Gazelle HMB 380+. It’s so much fun to ride. Every component is top quality. No maintenance issues ever. Recently got a carbon fiber road bike from a Taiwanese factory. Just as fun. Weighs 7.9kg. I will say when I tested the VanMoof I hated everything about it. The automatic shifter is extremely counterintuitive. The parts suck, a lot. Shimano hydraulic disc breaks are pretty much set it and forget it type things, so I personally wouldn’t form an opinion of the quality of disc breaks based on the VanMoof.

monkaiju 3y ago

God i Love my copenhagen wheel so much, gonna be really devastated when it dies to a point that i cant fix it since Superpedestrian discontinued them

pmg102 3y ago

In the UK, as in Europe and Australia I believe, Ebikes ("pedelecs") are legally limited to assistance only up to 15mph=25kph (it's possible to exceed this downhill, of course). As someone used to riding a regular pedal bike, I would say this is close to but not quite fast enough to feel comfortable among urban traffic. Yet raising the limit to say 20mph could feel arguably unsafely fast on a shared use path through a park. It's a dilemma.

fulafel 3y ago
There are also the 45 km/h s-pedelecs in EU, maybe still in the UK too.
- pmg102 3y ago
  There are, although it's a bureaucratic palaver in the UK getting them registered, taxed, insured and legal. And then they, like mopeds, aren't allowed on cycle paths or in cycle lanes... In short, losing much of the freedom that makes bicycles such fun.

analog31 3y ago

I've been cycling for 50+ years, and bike advocacy predates e-bikes by decades. I'm guilty myself. But I try not to oversell cycling as a universal solution to transportation, because it isn't. I also don't promise people that it will change their lives. Getting them on a bike at all is enough of a hurdle. These days, I advocate e-bikes, though I don't own one myself, because I figure the people who will ride a conventional bike are already doing so.

johnwatson11218 3y ago

I have had three eBikes and I have no doubt they are the future. They are where the internet was in the 90s. My electric mountain bike has been wonderful but all the normal parts like gears, brakes, and tires wear out much faster. One of my local bike shops has allowed me to trade in bikes towards the purchase of even better bikes and that helped shape my experience. If I were going to get a new one today it would most likely be the surly skid loader.

notthemessiah 3y ago

Most people seem to complain about the weather or humidity. I find that riding on a busy street, the noxious automobile emissions are the biggest source of displeasure when I'm physically exerting myself (breathing faster just makes me inhale more of the fumes). This is what the e-bike has freed me most of. That and being able to accelerate faster than my muscles can has enabled me to keep up with motor traffic. That said, most of these points would be moot if the US had dedicated bike lanes separate from automobile traffic.

carabiner 3y ago

What are people's experiences with folding e-bikes? I'm most interested in the Gocycle, but it costs as much as a used car. This Siggi https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/siggi-unfold-everyday-life-folding-e-bike/x/30201457#/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/siggi-unfold-everyday-lif... looks great and only weighs 13 kg but has all the risks of a crowdfunding project (massive delays and initial quality issues). It's the first I've seen with regenerative braking, and you can pedal backwards to charge it.

chriswarbo 3y ago
They're useful on the train (my commute's train didn't allow nonfolding bikes, since the line heads to/from London which makes it crowded). I previously left my acoustic bike locked at the station all day; but wouldn't dare with an ebike, so I got a folder.
- schubart 3y ago
  “Acoustic bike” as opposed to e-bike… I’ll steal that!
  - chriswarbo 3y ago
    I took it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36748080 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36748080 but have seen it used occasionally elsewhere (e.g. Reddit's r/fuckcars )
dharma1 3y ago
I test rode a folding Brompton e-bike in London and am tempted. I heard they are working on a version with slightly larger wheels which would be great, but no word on launch date - could be a while.
type0 3y ago
You get what you pay for in foldable e-bikes

zwilliamson 3y ago

I have owned a Riese and Muller Load 60 (bucket cargo bike) for over 3 years now. It is the love of my life. My dog rides with me everywhere. Living the good life. So simple but so satisfying. I have the same exact feeling every time I ride my cargo bike as I did the first day I rode it. An exciting open to the world feeling. It has never wore off. It allowed me to really experience the cities I’ve lived in.

rollinDyno 3y ago

I am considering buying an e-bike. However, I live in NYC and have access to Citibikes. I am a member so I can ride regular bikes for free and pay pennies for short trips on last-gen bikes. So if I pay $1000 for a Roadster V2, what exactly am I getting? Sure, Citibike can be inconvenient: sometimes I won't find a good bike and sometimes I won't be able to park. For this, I'm not sure it's worth paying the prize. Having my own bike also exposes me to risk of theft and having to carry it in and out of my apartment (I don't currently have bike storage in my building). Hence, it seems like I've already found my optimal solution.

lacrimacida 3y ago

Im in love with my EUC - electric unicycle. The learning curve is steepish only for the first half hour then tops off in about a couple of hours training. Pros: hands are free to carry items, it’s fun to ride, easier than walking after a few days of training. Good for training a good posture. Cons: lack of physical exertion, you’re basically standing on a floating platform with a wheel in the middle. All in all I highly recommend it for running errands or just pure fun. Another pro is that it’s so small you can easily take it indoors so no risk of them getting stolen.

carrozo 3y ago

“Riding a bike is one of the few activities left to modern man that gives the experience of operating a contraption, rather than a gadget or a gizmo” https://twitter.com/boltzmannbooty/status/1426928471670919176?s=46&t=ErgHAJ97Wg9Eh5pEqiNKOg https://twitter.com/boltzmannbooty/status/142692847167091917...

semireg 3y ago

Anyone living in Brussels know the best way for my wife and I to rent e-bikes for a few days in city center?

ptman 3y ago

I'm excitedly waiting for electric velomobiles to become more common. Like podbike.com. It's still an assisted bike (pedelec) according to regulation

nojvek 3y ago

Had an electric skateboard first, then electric bike, then electric scooter I really love the electric scooter. It folds into a small space. I had a bad fall on the electric skateboard and traded electric bike for a v light weight race bike. Author is correct, Electric scooter/bike are some kind of magic cheat code. Take very little electricity, cheap to buy and great for the last mile commute. Although they do suck when it’s rainy or you need to carry more. I’m looking forward to someone guiding 1-2 passenger, something with A/C mini electric vehicles. Tesla selling $50k vehicles seems crazy to me, some with other electric car manufacturers. I think there’s a great niche for light weight personal vehicles meant for city driving.

electric_chives 3y ago

I'm so torn on my ebike. On one hand, all the good points are true; it's a blast, it opens the city up to you, and its a great way to get around. All that said, mine has been doing nothing but gathering dust in the basement. Aside from 'pleasure cruise' there is no valid use case for the damned thing, at least in my city. Locking it, especially securing every valuable component on it, is unfeasible and would add ~20 lbs to my pack weight just to lock it. All efforts at creating bike storage lockers have failed, as it became common knowledge that the fragile sheet metal is effectively a lootbox for the taking. My roadbike on the other hand, cost $100, can be maintained with a small pouch of tools, enjoys effectively infinite range, and is unassuming enough to remain undisturbed at a lock post. It's a shame, because I'm a big believer in electric micro-mobility vehicles, but the security and usage issues means that the Bird scooters blighting our sidewalks are about the most workable solution we have at the moment.

btbuildem 3y ago

I like the poetic sing-songy tone of the article -- it does convey the joy of moving through the world on a bike. An electric one, even more so. My city has a rental bike system (Bixi, or City Bike elsewhere) and they're clunky tanks, made to be abused. In the past couple of years they've expanded their fleet with e-assist bikes. They're amazing. They're still unwieldy tanks, but the boost makes them fly up hills with little effort. In my limited experience with different types of e-bikes, the ones where you need to pedal to make them go seem better than the ones with some kind of a throttle / lever etc. The act of pedalling engages the rider more completely than sliding some thumb lever, it feels safer and more connected with the ride.

juancn 3y ago

"Find a local bike shop that will let you try out several electric bikes" where I live no shop is going to let you try one. Not even a regular bike, you want to try? Buy it. Heck, you normally can't even get a test drive when buying a new car.