3 ms·

“people who go to college decide on what to major in significantly based on two factors: earning potential and whether a field is seen as high-status” Ya no wo

by meroes 3y ago

“people who go to college decide on what to major in significantly based on two factors: earning potential and whether a field is seen as high-status” Ya no wonder I wouldn’t like CS with these peers. You have to be a nerd and supremely interested in status and money apparently. I don’t know many like that. Makes me think of Zuck and Elon. But they are minorities in the grand scheme. Maybe the author is exactly right, right here, why CS falters.

analog31 3y ago
I don't think it's entirely true. Students are told, over and over, to follow their passions. They're inspired by charismatic teachers. They pick up weird ideas about which fields will have good career prospects. Parents who "push" more employable options, are ignored. Having two college-age kids, and knowing many more, all I can figure out is that it's utterly a crap shoot. Also, nobody at the high school level has any idea what CS is. I had a bit of a leg up (in 1982) because my mom had taken a bunch of CS courses, and was teaching programming at a nearby community college. But she thought I'd be better off studying a traditional field. I chose math, and taught myself to program.
- matwood 3y ago
  Is the passion thing new? I don't remember it when I was in school in the 90s. My only passion was not to be poor anymore.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
  Because parents are old and don't know what's profitable these days. Don't think my parents even knew there was a lot of money in CS.
  - analog31 3y ago
    I'd say yes and no. For instance I'm a parent, and I'm also involved in hiring tech workers, so I'm aware of what's in demand. I'm not that old. When I started college in 1982, I'd argue that nobody knew. For instance, at that time my parents were also mid-career in STEM. Well, my mom was teaching programming at a community college, and her students were getting jobs after 1 year of her course. Based on where we lived, near Detroit, most of them were getting hired up by the car companies. But I don't believe anybody knew what was going to happen next. My mom thought that programmin was too easy to spend time learning at the college level, and that the market for programmers would soon be flooded. What happened next was the personal computer. I was keenly interested, but at my college, the CS majors used a mainframe computer. Most expected to work for banks, insurance companies, utilities, etc. Non-STEM parents, sure. I'll grant you that. I'm lucky to have been raised by two scientists. But they weren't thinking about money when they talked to me about careers and college majors.
zelphirkalt 3y ago
It would do us all good to burry the "nerd" stereotype. You need to be dedicated to the craft to become a good software engineer. And it is probably true, that many are not really dedicated, but in it for the moneys. Status can be high, but in any non engineering groups of people can also be pretty low, so it depends. Whenever I see self-lauding status chasing blog posts, I can smell the no-dedication. Too much politics in that game, too little hard work for understanding computer things.
- dgb23 3y ago
  I don’t understand what you mean. I understand „nerd“ as someone who passionately sits with their toys (computers, other tech) and tinkers for fun on hours end. I understand hard work in a professional context, but the constant learning and tinkering that „nerds“ display stems from fun and curiosity.
  - zelphirkalt 3y ago
    Of course, inside the profession, one often prides oneself with that label. But look outside of the profession and the connotation gets closer to the dictionary meaning of the word "nerd". Many people, who do not understand the most basic computer things, still think of "nerds" as "monkeys" sitting at a computer all day, doing something less relevant, not "having a life". Most people don't understand the profession of computer jobs. They see it as something inscrutable of dubious value. (And to be fair, often the greater picture our software serves to achieve is of dubious value.) It is not really like many other jobs, of which you could explain roughly to the next person on the street how the job is done. Before for example a software engineer gets to explain how some code they wrote works, the other person has long zoomed out. And before one gets to explain that it is a craft and what the art about it is, most people have fled. Not many are willing to listen to what fascinates a "nerd". With that lack of understanding often come tendencies to wanting to associate with other people, rather than that person, whose job one does not even understand. And those "nerds" they have weird interests anyway, right? One couldn't engage in social activities with them, right? You may say those are superficial people and you may be right. But the world is full of such people. In the end "nerd" is just a bag of stereotypes, that don't apply as often as most people think. Perhaps a "geek" is a friendlier word.
PartiallyTyped 3y ago
Mathematics has a lot more prestige because it is exotic for the average person. Most people associate computer science with computers, word, excel etc. Imho, SWE and “Computation Science” should be separated. You can treat the former as a computer oriented form of engineering, making it rigorous and produce SWEs that are actually good, and in the latter, you can put all the theoretical things and treat it as the branch of math it rightfully deserves to be.
jmkr 3y ago
Interesting, I went to college to study computer science because I liked computers and programming. Then I switched to philosophy. Then did some math and cs in grad school. > Ya no wonder I wouldn’t like CS with these peers. Yeah I'd switch out of cs again to avoid those peers :) Though in the proper setting I would have loved sticking with cs as an undergrad.

by meroes 3y ago

analog31 3y ago

I don't think it's entirely true. Students are told, over and over, to follow their passions. They're inspired by charismatic teachers. They pick up weird ideas about which fields will have good career prospects. Parents who "push" more employable options, are ignored. Having two college-age kids, and knowing many more, all I can figure out is that it's utterly a crap shoot. Also, nobody at the high school level has any idea what CS is. I had a bit of a leg up (in 1982) because my mom had taken a bunch of CS courses, and was teaching programming at a nearby community college. But she thought I'd be better off studying a traditional field. I chose math, and taught myself to program.

matwood 3y ago
Is the passion thing new? I don't remember it when I was in school in the 90s. My only passion was not to be poor anymore.
8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
Because parents are old and don't know what's profitable these days. Don't think my parents even knew there was a lot of money in CS.
- analog31 3y ago
  I'd say yes and no. For instance I'm a parent, and I'm also involved in hiring tech workers, so I'm aware of what's in demand. I'm not that old. When I started college in 1982, I'd argue that nobody knew. For instance, at that time my parents were also mid-career in STEM. Well, my mom was teaching programming at a community college, and her students were getting jobs after 1 year of her course. Based on where we lived, near Detroit, most of them were getting hired up by the car companies. But I don't believe anybody knew what was going to happen next. My mom thought that programmin was too easy to spend time learning at the college level, and that the market for programmers would soon be flooded. What happened next was the personal computer. I was keenly interested, but at my college, the CS majors used a mainframe computer. Most expected to work for banks, insurance companies, utilities, etc. Non-STEM parents, sure. I'll grant you that. I'm lucky to have been raised by two scientists. But they weren't thinking about money when they talked to me about careers and college majors.

zelphirkalt 3y ago

It would do us all good to burry the "nerd" stereotype. You need to be dedicated to the craft to become a good software engineer. And it is probably true, that many are not really dedicated, but in it for the moneys. Status can be high, but in any non engineering groups of people can also be pretty low, so it depends. Whenever I see self-lauding status chasing blog posts, I can smell the no-dedication. Too much politics in that game, too little hard work for understanding computer things.

dgb23 3y ago
I don’t understand what you mean. I understand „nerd“ as someone who passionately sits with their toys (computers, other tech) and tinkers for fun on hours end. I understand hard work in a professional context, but the constant learning and tinkering that „nerds“ display stems from fun and curiosity.
- zelphirkalt 3y ago
  Of course, inside the profession, one often prides oneself with that label. But look outside of the profession and the connotation gets closer to the dictionary meaning of the word "nerd". Many people, who do not understand the most basic computer things, still think of "nerds" as "monkeys" sitting at a computer all day, doing something less relevant, not "having a life". Most people don't understand the profession of computer jobs. They see it as something inscrutable of dubious value. (And to be fair, often the greater picture our software serves to achieve is of dubious value.) It is not really like many other jobs, of which you could explain roughly to the next person on the street how the job is done. Before for example a software engineer gets to explain how some code they wrote works, the other person has long zoomed out. And before one gets to explain that it is a craft and what the art about it is, most people have fled. Not many are willing to listen to what fascinates a "nerd". With that lack of understanding often come tendencies to wanting to associate with other people, rather than that person, whose job one does not even understand. And those "nerds" they have weird interests anyway, right? One couldn't engage in social activities with them, right? You may say those are superficial people and you may be right. But the world is full of such people. In the end "nerd" is just a bag of stereotypes, that don't apply as often as most people think. Perhaps a "geek" is a friendlier word.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago

Mathematics has a lot more prestige because it is exotic for the average person. Most people associate computer science with computers, word, excel etc. Imho, SWE and “Computation Science” should be separated. You can treat the former as a computer oriented form of engineering, making it rigorous and produce SWEs that are actually good, and in the latter, you can put all the theoretical things and treat it as the branch of math it rightfully deserves to be.

jmkr 3y ago

Interesting, I went to college to study computer science because I liked computers and programming. Then I switched to philosophy. Then did some math and cs in grad school. > Ya no wonder I wouldn’t like CS with these peers. Yeah I'd switch out of cs again to avoid those peers :) Though in the proper setting I would have loved sticking with cs as an undergrad.