6 ms·

> Most people rarely need to haul anything and can use carshare when they do. Heavy citation needed. I've been remodeling my home for the last 2 years and I'd

by dcow 3y ago

> Most people rarely need to haul anything and can use carshare when they do. Heavy citation needed. I've been remodeling my home for the last 2 years and I'd say on regular (every other week or so) basis I've needed to pick up something from the hardware store that can't be biked home. When I buy groceries for the family for the week, I cannot bike those home. When I need to take a large package to the UPS store a bike doesn't work. When I buy a new lawn mower, that box can't be biked. When I need to go more than 3 miles quickly, a bike doesn't work. Baby (in the winter nonetheless), bike's a no-go. Etc. It's awesome that you live somewhere where you can make due with a bike and hired labor. But you are frankly out of touch if you think that most people rarely need to transport things that are too big for a bike. And you're conveniently ignoring the fact that plenty of people have trucks, SUVs, hatchbacks, etc. for the cargo space so saying "you can't do that in a car" is neither here nor there.

davely 3y ago
It’s awesome you’re remodeling your house, but I would equally want a citation that says this is a “most people” problem. There will be exceptions, to be sure! Remodeling your house (at least to western standards) is surely one. But then most people could potentially rent a truck from Home Depot for this sort of thing.
- dcow 3y ago
  That’s why I added a bunch of other examples, not just remodeling. I think I painted a pretty standard picture of what a 30s some adult family routine looks like.
- earksiinni 3y ago
  Have you tried renting a truck from Home Depot before? There's no way to reserve one in advance. Most Home Depots have one or maybe two trucks, you just have to show up and hope that it's available. Uhaul is much more reliable, but in my experience renting from them is expensive and very time consuming. Each checkout usually takes me 20-30 minutes, even when I use the app ahead of time (their app is horrible). Where I live, I'd say trucks make up 30% of the vehicles on the road. It's a big part of the culture here and extremely practical. There are no practical rental options. Lots of places in the US are like that. That's what led me to eventually buy a pickup for myself. Someone needs to create Zipcar for trucks for those of us not living in dense urban cores.
  - grogenaut 3y ago
    If you order from a slightly more upscale hardware place they'll do delivery for a reasonable price usually next day. Seattle has a place called Dunn's. Their lumber is somewhat more expensive but it's all premium grade or better and you don't have to sort through 50 2x4s to find 5 good ones. In fact everything I've had delivered was high quality except one piece. I called them back and they swapped it out at no charge to me. Better if you're ordering with a truck you can fit much larger pieces like beams or 20' trex pieces that you can't get in a pickup. Delivery is $75-150 depending on how much of the truck you use last I checked. I stopped getting anything but instant fixed from Lowes or home Depot. For any big project thses places also discount in bulk better. We put in a 1k sqft paver patio. Was half as much buying from a local supplier who delivered for $50 on 5 pallets. No way I could have gotten that in a pickup with or without a forklift. Had a dingo delivered. Sure I could have trailered that but I'd have to rent and return a trailer. It was dropped off by a rental place and picked up a month later included in the rental. 8 minutes of my time. 15 total if you include the phone call to rent. I've spent an hour renting a chipper from home Depot. Same for metal working. Moving sheet steel by yourself is stupid unless you want to slice up yourself and your vehicle. Deliver trucks have cranes. Even better you can get 24' lengths of tube steel which really cuts down on price. They put the pavers 30 feet from the street sneaking under power line easily. If your doing a house how many trips are you making with a pickup full of drywall. How much are you racking up in gas in that sucker going to hd?
alistairSH 3y ago
Most people don’t take 2 years to remodel their own home. Most people don’t remodel their home at all. A cargo bike is more than adequate to pick up groceries or drop off a package. It might even haul the lawn mower, though I’ll concede a car might work better. But if you buy a lawn mower more than once every 20 years, you need to find a better mower.
- coderenegade 3y ago
  Even if someone isn't remodeling their home, they probably still do things like go camping or surfing, take the kids to school, pick their parents up from the airport, go to the local home depot to get supplies for home maintenance or gardening, etc. Arguing that people should give up cars is arguing for a huge loss of personal freedom.
  - 6510 3y ago
    These comments are quite revealing. The things I see every day are not as obvious as I thought they were. It is probably awesome to drive around in a well paved place build specifically for mass car use but if you get out of the car its just asphalt everywhere. It's not very exciting when not driving? If I can't cycle it from the hardware store I have it delivered. The hardware store doesn't have 99.99% of things and its expensive. People without cars [usually] don't get groceries for a whole week. I did hear people do it but it doesn't sound very appealing/appetizing/healthy/fresh. Someone calculated that if one does 20 min worth of exercise per day the life expectancy goes up by about the same. I live near a store, perhaps I chose to, perhaps we have enough cyclists to make it worth it - I don't know. Be it Groceries or lawn mowers, just have it delivered. I've never had to send a package so large but you can just schedule a parcel collection with UPS. > When I need to go more than 3 miles quickly, a bike doesn't work. I always point to the (mind blowing) 24 hour cycling distance record: 1026.21 km or 637.66 miles. He didn't just get off the sofa and did that of course. It took quite a bit of conditioning. Could he really be 1000 times more fit? I can't imagine. I see bike trailers full of babies the year round. I just see a bike with one on the front, one on the back and 2 tiny humans on their own bike in front of it. People go camping on their bike, there are trailers for your surf board. kids cycle themselves to school. There is no need to pick parents up from the airport, if you just let them stand there then they will figure out how to get home themselves in no time. Rent a car, take a taxi/uber? I suppose it would be cool to own your own airstrip and aircraft and fly the parents wherever they want to go. Of course it would be noisy and take up a huge amount of space. Other peoples personal freedom would have to step aside. I wonder at what age kids can safely be allowed outside in the destruction derby meat grinder that is car traffic. You cant drive a mile without guts spilled all over the road. Globally we are killing something like one person every 25 seconds and god knows how many animals. In the Netherlands roughly the same amount of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians die in traffic accidents but they are all killed by cars. The odd part to me is that 2/3 of those must be in the city where cars are the least useful. It probably needs 2 documentary films to show cycling countries how things work in car countries and the other way around. I hear people drive down their driveway to get the mail. Sounds surreal to me.
dumpsterdiver 3y ago
Agreed. They appear to live in a bubble world where everything "just works". They don't seem to realize that outside of their bubble the world does still need to turn, and that isn't currently going to happen in the nice way they'd like it to (on uhh... bicycles).
- nerdbert 3y ago
  The "bubble" is a place where planners worked hard to make things work well. There's nothing magical about it. Political and technical decisions make the difference between people having to waste time and risk everyone's lives moving around in cars, vs being able to accomplish their daily needs quickly and easily on foot or bike. The fact that such places exist proves it is possible. They weren't always this way, but they wanted it to be this way, and they made it so. The same can happen almost anywhere, given faith and commitment.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dumpsterdiver 3y ago
    > The fact that such places exist proves it is possible. No one claimed that it is impossible to exploit the masses for the gain of the few. What I am saying is that you wouldn't have those things without a much dirtier world providing them.
- Moru 3y ago
  The world looks very different depending on where you live. Where I live I could do without a car if I really tried. I know lots of people don't even have a drivers license (at the age of 65). The E-Bike is a good solution for most older people, the younger ones can still use the normal bikes. We have winters with lots of snow and temperatures below -20 C. The road network is built for bicycles, I can get from one side of town to the other without ever following the same road as cars. I might have to cross a road a few times but often that is done on a different level than the cars, I just have to do a little planning. The roads are cleared of snow within a few hours of snowfall unless it's apocalyptic ammounts which happens about once or twice per winter. Then it can take 1-2 days before all roads are useable. But it's still possible to take the main bike roads into the city center and hospital where most of the jobs are.
smaudet 3y ago
For startup on home remodeling, if you don't have access to a shop then yeah you are going to want to have a flat bed truck and/or trailer. Car just doesn't cut it, if it does you are mostly buying small tools or the like. Everything else can be shipped, albeit for higher fees. For groceries, you do need to have one within a reasonable distance, but a daily trip to the store more than suffices. You waste less, too. Since such a thing became locally available to us I have made almost no trips to the grocery store by car - those I have have been for specialty shops at longer distance, or the rare case of being tired/lazy/already out. Transportation of large heavy packages and inclement weather are two areas there are no standard solutions, however there are enclosed designs, tricycles, and e-bikes - a small heating apparatus is all that's necessary to hold back e.g. the cold. I think the point does stand, in that no its not "needed". It's mainly just a giant PITA when a bunch of unsafe half ton steel death traps are the "norm". The long distances between shops are also a function of the car. On the flip side, no I don't think ride-share should be the only option, but a lot of people would fare much better without a car payment they don't really want or need.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > > When I buy groceries for the family for the week, I cannot bike those home. > a daily trip to the store more than suffices. You want people to go to the grocery store every day instead of every week?
  - nerdbert 3y ago
    I buy fresh food daily. Fruits and veggies from whichever stall in the local street market has the best options, bread from the baker, meat from the butcher. Packaged goods from one of the many supermarkets within easy walking distance. It takes me a few minutes on the way home from whatever I'm doing. Less work than getting into a car and driving 15 minutes somewhere once a week. Plus everything is fresh, we only buy what we need and basically throw away zero food. Cities can be organised differently, including in ways that facilitate more responsible life choices.
  - oblio 3y ago
    People living in cities absolutely should. People living in US cities? They can't because American cities are designed explicitly to be hostile to humans.
blensor 3y ago
I am not saying you should do grocery shopping like this guy https://youtu.be/H27InrF_eIs https://youtu.be/H27InrF_eIs What I do think however is that our perspective why and when a car is needed has been heavily influenced by media. I just had a conversation with someone who lives in the center of Vienna and he was perplexed that I had to find a parking spot because he did not realize that was even driving a car. So we should not make assumptions on the need of a car in either direction

by dcow 3y ago

davely 3y ago

It’s awesome you’re remodeling your house, but I would equally want a citation that says this is a “most people” problem. There will be exceptions, to be sure! Remodeling your house (at least to western standards) is surely one. But then most people could potentially rent a truck from Home Depot for this sort of thing.

dcow 3y ago
That’s why I added a bunch of other examples, not just remodeling. I think I painted a pretty standard picture of what a 30s some adult family routine looks like.
earksiinni 3y ago
Have you tried renting a truck from Home Depot before? There's no way to reserve one in advance. Most Home Depots have one or maybe two trucks, you just have to show up and hope that it's available. Uhaul is much more reliable, but in my experience renting from them is expensive and very time consuming. Each checkout usually takes me 20-30 minutes, even when I use the app ahead of time (their app is horrible). Where I live, I'd say trucks make up 30% of the vehicles on the road. It's a big part of the culture here and extremely practical. There are no practical rental options. Lots of places in the US are like that. That's what led me to eventually buy a pickup for myself. Someone needs to create Zipcar for trucks for those of us not living in dense urban cores.
- grogenaut 3y ago
  If you order from a slightly more upscale hardware place they'll do delivery for a reasonable price usually next day. Seattle has a place called Dunn's. Their lumber is somewhat more expensive but it's all premium grade or better and you don't have to sort through 50 2x4s to find 5 good ones. In fact everything I've had delivered was high quality except one piece. I called them back and they swapped it out at no charge to me. Better if you're ordering with a truck you can fit much larger pieces like beams or 20' trex pieces that you can't get in a pickup. Delivery is $75-150 depending on how much of the truck you use last I checked. I stopped getting anything but instant fixed from Lowes or home Depot. For any big project thses places also discount in bulk better. We put in a 1k sqft paver patio. Was half as much buying from a local supplier who delivered for $50 on 5 pallets. No way I could have gotten that in a pickup with or without a forklift. Had a dingo delivered. Sure I could have trailered that but I'd have to rent and return a trailer. It was dropped off by a rental place and picked up a month later included in the rental. 8 minutes of my time. 15 total if you include the phone call to rent. I've spent an hour renting a chipper from home Depot. Same for metal working. Moving sheet steel by yourself is stupid unless you want to slice up yourself and your vehicle. Deliver trucks have cranes. Even better you can get 24' lengths of tube steel which really cuts down on price. They put the pavers 30 feet from the street sneaking under power line easily. If your doing a house how many trips are you making with a pickup full of drywall. How much are you racking up in gas in that sucker going to hd?

alistairSH 3y ago

Most people don’t take 2 years to remodel their own home. Most people don’t remodel their home at all. A cargo bike is more than adequate to pick up groceries or drop off a package. It might even haul the lawn mower, though I’ll concede a car might work better. But if you buy a lawn mower more than once every 20 years, you need to find a better mower.

coderenegade 3y ago
Even if someone isn't remodeling their home, they probably still do things like go camping or surfing, take the kids to school, pick their parents up from the airport, go to the local home depot to get supplies for home maintenance or gardening, etc. Arguing that people should give up cars is arguing for a huge loss of personal freedom.
- 6510 3y ago
  These comments are quite revealing. The things I see every day are not as obvious as I thought they were. It is probably awesome to drive around in a well paved place build specifically for mass car use but if you get out of the car its just asphalt everywhere. It's not very exciting when not driving? If I can't cycle it from the hardware store I have it delivered. The hardware store doesn't have 99.99% of things and its expensive. People without cars [usually] don't get groceries for a whole week. I did hear people do it but it doesn't sound very appealing/appetizing/healthy/fresh. Someone calculated that if one does 20 min worth of exercise per day the life expectancy goes up by about the same. I live near a store, perhaps I chose to, perhaps we have enough cyclists to make it worth it - I don't know. Be it Groceries or lawn mowers, just have it delivered. I've never had to send a package so large but you can just schedule a parcel collection with UPS. > When I need to go more than 3 miles quickly, a bike doesn't work. I always point to the (mind blowing) 24 hour cycling distance record: 1026.21 km or 637.66 miles. He didn't just get off the sofa and did that of course. It took quite a bit of conditioning. Could he really be 1000 times more fit? I can't imagine. I see bike trailers full of babies the year round. I just see a bike with one on the front, one on the back and 2 tiny humans on their own bike in front of it. People go camping on their bike, there are trailers for your surf board. kids cycle themselves to school. There is no need to pick parents up from the airport, if you just let them stand there then they will figure out how to get home themselves in no time. Rent a car, take a taxi/uber? I suppose it would be cool to own your own airstrip and aircraft and fly the parents wherever they want to go. Of course it would be noisy and take up a huge amount of space. Other peoples personal freedom would have to step aside. I wonder at what age kids can safely be allowed outside in the destruction derby meat grinder that is car traffic. You cant drive a mile without guts spilled all over the road. Globally we are killing something like one person every 25 seconds and god knows how many animals. In the Netherlands roughly the same amount of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians die in traffic accidents but they are all killed by cars. The odd part to me is that 2/3 of those must be in the city where cars are the least useful. It probably needs 2 documentary films to show cycling countries how things work in car countries and the other way around. I hear people drive down their driveway to get the mail. Sounds surreal to me.

dumpsterdiver 3y ago

Agreed. They appear to live in a bubble world where everything "just works". They don't seem to realize that outside of their bubble the world does still need to turn, and that isn't currently going to happen in the nice way they'd like it to (on uhh... bicycles).

nerdbert 3y ago
The "bubble" is a place where planners worked hard to make things work well. There's nothing magical about it. Political and technical decisions make the difference between people having to waste time and risk everyone's lives moving around in cars, vs being able to accomplish their daily needs quickly and easily on foot or bike. The fact that such places exist proves it is possible. They weren't always this way, but they wanted it to be this way, and they made it so. The same can happen almost anywhere, given faith and commitment.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dumpsterdiver 3y ago
  > The fact that such places exist proves it is possible. No one claimed that it is impossible to exploit the masses for the gain of the few. What I am saying is that you wouldn't have those things without a much dirtier world providing them.
Moru 3y ago
The world looks very different depending on where you live. Where I live I could do without a car if I really tried. I know lots of people don't even have a drivers license (at the age of 65). The E-Bike is a good solution for most older people, the younger ones can still use the normal bikes. We have winters with lots of snow and temperatures below -20 C. The road network is built for bicycles, I can get from one side of town to the other without ever following the same road as cars. I might have to cross a road a few times but often that is done on a different level than the cars, I just have to do a little planning. The roads are cleared of snow within a few hours of snowfall unless it's apocalyptic ammounts which happens about once or twice per winter. Then it can take 1-2 days before all roads are useable. But it's still possible to take the main bike roads into the city center and hospital where most of the jobs are.

smaudet 3y ago

For startup on home remodeling, if you don't have access to a shop then yeah you are going to want to have a flat bed truck and/or trailer. Car just doesn't cut it, if it does you are mostly buying small tools or the like. Everything else can be shipped, albeit for higher fees. For groceries, you do need to have one within a reasonable distance, but a daily trip to the store more than suffices. You waste less, too. Since such a thing became locally available to us I have made almost no trips to the grocery store by car - those I have have been for specialty shops at longer distance, or the rare case of being tired/lazy/already out. Transportation of large heavy packages and inclement weather are two areas there are no standard solutions, however there are enclosed designs, tricycles, and e-bikes - a small heating apparatus is all that's necessary to hold back e.g. the cold. I think the point does stand, in that no its not "needed". It's mainly just a giant PITA when a bunch of unsafe half ton steel death traps are the "norm". The long distances between shops are also a function of the car. On the flip side, no I don't think ride-share should be the only option, but a lot of people would fare much better without a car payment they don't really want or need.

josephcsible 3y ago
> > When I buy groceries for the family for the week, I cannot bike those home. > a daily trip to the store more than suffices. You want people to go to the grocery store every day instead of every week?
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I buy fresh food daily. Fruits and veggies from whichever stall in the local street market has the best options, bread from the baker, meat from the butcher. Packaged goods from one of the many supermarkets within easy walking distance. It takes me a few minutes on the way home from whatever I'm doing. Less work than getting into a car and driving 15 minutes somewhere once a week. Plus everything is fresh, we only buy what we need and basically throw away zero food. Cities can be organised differently, including in ways that facilitate more responsible life choices.
- oblio 3y ago
  People living in cities absolutely should. People living in US cities? They can't because American cities are designed explicitly to be hostile to humans.

blensor 3y ago

I am not saying you should do grocery shopping like this guy https://youtu.be/H27InrF_eIs https://youtu.be/H27InrF_eIs What I do think however is that our perspective why and when a car is needed has been heavily influenced by media. I just had a conversation with someone who lives in the center of Vienna and he was perplexed that I had to find a parking spot because he did not realize that was even driving a car. So we should not make assumptions on the need of a car in either direction