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Ask HN: How could I safely contact drug cartels?

107 points by csears 3y ago

Ok, this is going to sound a little weird, but bear with me. I have an idea that has the potential to reduce fentanyl deaths, reduce drug-related violence, and improve operating margins for drug cartels. I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated, and would be interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying, cut down on the violence that brings law enforcement attention, and improve their profit margins. I realize it sounds a little crazy, but, hypothetically, how would I safely go about setting up meetings with cartels? I'm not even sure where to start or what kind of lawyer to check with for advice. Email in my bio if you'd rather reach out directly. Thanks!

dt3ft 3y ago
Is this how you do growth engineering? Quite a few people looked you and the company you work for up. Is that the end game? :)
- 005 3y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- TheAlchemist 3y ago
  My thoughts exactly after visiting his website - it’s seems like some kind of attention catching technique.
throwaway_1288 3y ago
I'm not really sure what your goal here is Chris, you are either trying to do some gorilla marketing campaign for [redacted], or based on your LinkedIn history of only staying at a company in a role for about one year exactly, you are getting the itch to move to something different now once again, so why not have a go at transforming a burgeoning industry like the drug trade? There is also a third option of this just being a joke and I have to admit it is pretty funny to imagine you on a Zoom call the Cartel, screen sharing some kind of a process deck you made in Google slides. I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you actually are not stupid enough to think you could get on a Zoom call with a cartel member, so that means this is most likely a growth stunt, but I have to second guess myself there too because this post has made you look like such a dunce I can't imagine you showing up to work on Monday proud to share the results of this with the growth team. Friendly advice for next time would be to post this from an account that is not tied directly to who you are as a person
- csears 3y ago
  I really don't have any way to prove this, but it's not a stunt and not connected to my employer in any way. I don't have anything to promote. I'm speaking in a purely personal capacity. I've attempted to remove references to my employer, so I'd appreciate it if you or a moderator could remove the reference from your comment. I do enjoy intellectual discussions with smart people on thought provoking topics and that's primarily what this is. I am genuinely curious if my idea could work and I was interested in feedback from the HN crowd. I've been mostly lurking here for about 10 years, and just recently decided to start writing more and trying to participate more actively in HN discussions. This idea struck me as something that could spark a fun discussion, and it has. Getting something to the front page of Hacker News is a bucket list item for me. It didn't happen this time (I think it got to page 4), but I learned a lot and really enjoyed replying to everyone's comments. But to be clear, this was not a stunt. It was meant to be a little provocative and attention grabbing, but I do genuinely believe my idea has some merit and might improve a very difficult situation... if it could be done legally and safely.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    > I've attempted to remove references to my employer, so I'd appreciate it if you or a moderator could remove the reference from your comment. Email hn@ycombinator.com and dang will take care of it. Give him a link to the comment and be specific about what the problem is.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  > gorilla marketing campaign guerrilla
1letterunixname 3y ago
Contact a senator. Oh, you mean illegal drugs cartels? You're not going to do any good because criminals don't give AF about something that isn't their mission. Ending the prohibition War on Drugs is the best path that even LEOs admit is an abject (and racist and classist) failure. [0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Action_Partnership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Action_Partner...
costco 3y ago
If you want to meet policy people just go to think tank events about anything related to this issue. Researchers at places like the United States Institute of Peace or journalists may actually know low-mid ranking members, but they are probably not going to introduce you to them directly. With all due respect, this plan seems incredibly ill-conceived and even if it was successful you would likely have legal problems.
- csears 3y ago
  Think tank events are a very good idea. Something similar had occurred to me. Many successful startup ideas do sound very ill-conceived initially and often have legal problems, despite their success. Having strangers drive you places? Renting a room in a random person's house? Having a book retailer host all your IT infrastructure? So, although I do appreciate your point, I don't think those factors alone are reason enough to give up on the concept.
  - costco 3y ago
    "Startup"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your plan is but you should know that you are legally not allowed to take money from these people. Every major cartel and their leaders are designated under the Kingpin Act or as Transnational Criminal Organizations which means you cannot "[make] any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or services by, to, or for the benefit of" them. Even if they weren't designated, you cannot take money that you knew to be from a crime. Either of these are punishable by a long time in prison. The only way this would work is if it was done under close supervision with law enforcement, but it's pretty evident that American police do not have much interest in harm reduction style solutions. I don't know if this is some elaborate troll but if your idea is so great you should just publish it. I'm sure you would get credit if it was successful.
CobaltFire 3y ago
Sometimes “move fast and break things” is a little more illegal than others. This time it’s far, FAR more illegal than you seem to think. I imagine this will have some interesting ramifications on your future employment opportunities, since you managed to nicely link it to your real identity.
zer8k 3y ago
This is absolutely peak HN. I thought I had seen everything. A person is asking HN how to contact a cartel in order to improve their business "for safety". I am strictly commenting here so I can return to it in the future for a good laugh.
- csears 3y ago
  I'm glad it's been entertaining. This is the first time I've posted anything to HN that's gotten any real engagement/interest and I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    Between the above comment, and this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36737819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36737819 I am now fully confident this is satire. Well played. 20/10. You had me going for longer than I care to admit. Best HN troll I've seen.
    - csears 3y ago
      I intentionally tried to keep it light / humorous to have plausible deniability. "I'm sorry your honor. This was just an elaborate joke that got out of hand."
      - Tainnor 3y ago
        Given that this is now obviously a joke, maybe dang should flag the thread again, given that I don't think HN is meant for such kinds of trolls.
zeagle 3y ago
If I've learned anything from YC, it's make sure your cartel stock options vest with 4 year cliff.
kirubakaran 3y ago
As a fan of KenM, Nathan Fielder, and Sasha Baron Cohen, I say well done! HOW did you come up with this? Genius! The bit about getting the cartel to sign your EULA [1] was ::chefs kiss:: (Posting this only as you seem to have decided to low-key reveal the ruse) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36738007 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36738007
andrejguran 3y ago
Nice try FBI
neilk 3y ago
This is complete nonsense. If you don’t want to profit from this there is no incentive to meet anyone. Post the idea, publicize it, and hope they adopt it. If you are sincere, I have difficulty understanding how you have functioned in society for apparently decades. My guess is that you have figured out that being laughably wrong on the internet is a great way to drive traffic. In which case thanks for wasting everyone’s time. But there’s no obvious hook here other than HN karma? If not, then I am concerned you are literally, unironically, having a mental breakdown of some kind. Mania perhaps. If you still think your idea is worthwhile, maybe you should ask someone you trust if your behavior has been off lately and get checked out by a doctor.
abrookewood 3y ago
I'm just going to re-iterate what DonHopkins said below. Just post it publicly and hope it gets out there. Email some journalists etc.
lamontcg 3y ago
> interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying they don't care. there's more getting hooked to replace them every day. there's no profit in lifting a finger to prevent the deaths, it is all a perfectly acceptable moral cost of doing business (for people who are very willing to kill in cold blood). your mental model of the cartels and their motivations and business model is very broken.
Brillaughte 3y ago
Cartel/Mafias are managed by greedy peoples, their greed is infinite you will never win.
AFK74u 3y ago
Why Combinator
AFK74u 3y ago
Wow With all this traction you should apply to Why Combinator.
jacknobody 3y ago
You are planning suicide. It's that simple. You have nothing in common with the people who run drug cartels; it would be as safe to meet with grizzly bears.
- csears 3y ago
  You might be right. I would be happy with a Zoom meeting.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    Why don't you just publish the idea and wait for the better angels of their nature to realize that being good is more in their long term interest than being bad? It's not like they don't do research or keep abreast of technology; if you just want to save humanity then go public and spread your idea as widely as possible while expecting nothing in return. If you want to understand the sociopolitical dynamics of cartels and the strategic logic of their operations, I suggest this monograph: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA599872.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA599872.pdf
    - csears 3y ago
      It's obviously a super complicated and morally fraught issue, but if I could enable a future with fewer fentanyl deaths and less border violence, that seems like it would be good progress. The current war on drugs does not seem to be making much progress. But your point about just publishing the idea is well taken. This would not be a money making venture for me. A big part of the challenge of getting a cartel meeting would be convincing people that I wasn't wasting their time. That would likely involve establishing credibility somehow. It's an interesting problem. I appreciate the pointer to that report. It looks fascinating. I'll read through it.
      - parabyl 3y ago
        If your idea is truly something that could have such big effects, I'd say the ethical thing to do would be to document and share it widely, so that any individuals from cartels to lawmakers, agencies, drug research centre's etc. could do as they wish with the data. Again, if it's that revolutionary then it's very likely this open sharing will see it taking off. Not to mention that it's morally questionable to keep such a potentially beneficial harm reduction technique to oneself.
arkitaip 3y ago
This site is insufferable sometimes.
- warning26 3y ago
  If only OP could drop his amazing elevator pitch, every cartel in town would contract with him! Disrupting the illegal drug space!
- smoldesu 3y ago
  I have an OPML file of my favorite creative geniuses from here. It helps me resist "the urge".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- van2077 3y ago
  Aye. I wish n-gate.com would return for one-time only, just for this post.
LinuxBender 3y ago
I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated Not an expert on this but my understanding is that since El Chapo Joaquín Guzmán was taken down his cartel splintered and they are no longer operating like a business not that it would have helped your goal here. This would probably be an extra-risky riskier and insane time to try to meet with them. If you are dead set on doing this I would guess that the least risky way to get a message to them would be to talk to a Sheriff in a border town that deals with their drug and people smugglers and knows what people can relay a message to them. They will advise against this as well. I would not try to meet them in person. Here is one of them [1] give this reporter or Sheriff a call. He's in Yuma County, AZ. Have thick skin, they are going to give you a hard time. Maybe hire an actor from South America the cartel might respect and pay the actor to make a short to-the-point video the cartel may enjoy watching. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdYAYgbf5Uc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdYAYgbf5Uc
- csears 3y ago
  You make several good points. One option I had considered was somehow working my way up the chain, but hadn't thought about local law enforcement. Thanks!
  - LinuxBender 3y ago
    I still think it's a monumentally bad idea. There are no rational people on any side of that hot mess. To the point of others in this thread, if your intent could be perceived as aiding and abetting the cartels then the authorities would put you away unlike the cartel of whom they can not touch most of the time but I am not a lawyer and not an expert in these matters. I can only hope you talk to that Sheriff. I think they would help you see reason and are much less likely to drag you into the legal system than the other agents.
tlb 3y ago
Cartels of any kind (drug, music, oil) are never where new ideas start. If a new drug were going to be adopted, it'd start with a local manufacturer/seller, and spread by word of mouth. If it gets big, eventually cartels will move in and monopolize it. Monopolies get pitches for new products all the time, but their answer is: - If it's any good, why isn't it already growing? - We'll wait and see if it grows. If it does, we'll just muscle our way in. - Have fun, kid. We'll let you know when it's time to join us.
- csears 3y ago
  Very true. I imagine they have their own version of the Innovator's Dilemma. I will say that my idea is not a new drug.
anigbrowl 3y ago
You go into business for yourself, and then wait for someone to knock on your door and make you an offer you can't refuse. You'll probably end up in a ditch due to your combination of naiveté and opportunism.
raincom 3y ago
Have you read the court transcripts of El Chapo trial? Maybe, better read them, before you think you can safely contact drug cartels. Drug cartels are at least three moves away from your local drug dealer. Cartel folks deal with the wholesale distributors, who are some high level gang operatives. So, you can't even go past the first two levels, let alone the local high level gang operatives. These high level wholesale buyers interact with cartel people (mostly they are born and brought up in the states). And these people further interact with people in Mexico. This Mexican contact is in touch with the big cartel bosses. That's how the structure is laid out based on the transcripts.
- csears 3y ago
  I have read a few things about cartel org structures, but most of my knowledge is based on The Wire and Breaking Bad, and obviously those probably aren't too close to reality. The El Chapo transcripts are a great suggestion. Much appreciated.
  - zero_shift 3y ago
    How people read this and didn't catch on is anybody's guess
  - lawgimenez 3y ago
    You should be watching Netflix’s Narcos instead. Or you can contact some reporter at Vice News who interviewed several capos in the cartel. Maybe get some intro from them.
- Fricken 3y ago
  I stayed in a small village In Michoacan on the pacific coast in Mexico for a few weeks on a surf trip. This was 2009, but everybody in town knew "The Big Guy". He paid for schools and roads, ate at the local restaurants, attended church on special occasions. I wouldn't argue there's a safe or easy way to get access to a guy like this, but I doubt it's necessary to go to through drug supply chain. Make friends with the locals.
  - 3y ago
protocolture 3y ago
who do you want to be safe from? The Cartels themselves? Probably looking at finding someone who knows someone who knows someone. Maybe a billboard? The government of your country who might not enjoy you assisting the cartels? You probably fucked that up already.
- csears 3y ago
  Yes, my main concern is the cartels themselves. The most likely outcome is that none of them would ever agree to meet me. There is a very small chance that one or two would meet me, love the idea, and agree to cooperate. There's also a non-zero chance that in the process of trying to get a meeting, I would upset them somehow and they would take some action against me. Another possibility is that even if the cartels like my idea, it might upset other parties in the supply chain and they could take action. Billboard is a good idea. I'll look into that. What should it say?
discretion22 3y ago
I thought this was some sort of parody or joke - it sounds like some sort of Nigerian Prince scam pitch - but from your responses you are either genius at playing the whole thing straight or you are seriously out your depth and literally risking your life for no good reason. First off, saying that you have an idea to "improve their [Cartels] profit margins" by itself is enough to fall foul of the US DEA. Even if you are not in the US, the DEA has plenty of official and unofficial routes to target you and make life unbearably difficult or extradite you to the US where they can really mess you about. Fentanyl is primarily sourced from China and is knowingly brought in by cartels - it's not an accident it's in drugs and killing people and both China and the cartels are well aware of that and don't care. You're talking about people who torture indiscriminately and dump decapitated bodies in play parks to 'send messages' over minor issues like someone being on the wrong street that they consider their turf. You're not going to get a "zoom call" with them and you're not going to be able to set up any sort of mutually beneficial business relationship.
- csears 3y ago
  Nope, not a joke. Currently more of a thought experiment that could turn into a startup if it really seems viable. I'm in the US and I would actually be very interested in chatting with the DEA about my idea. If it turns out there is no legal way to move ahead with my idea, I won't pursue it further. As I said, I'm not even sure what kind of lawyer I could contact to get advice about this kind of thing. Saul Goodman? I'm aware that the fentanyl is added on purpose, but I don't think they want to add so much that it kills their customers. Last year there was some discussion of legalizing cocaine production in Columbia. I think the plan was eventually rejected, but it seems like people are seriously considering creative solutions.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    I'm going to take a shot in the dark here, but I bet you're a huge Ayn Rand fan, aren't you?
  - raincom 3y ago
    Be careful dealing with federal agents and federal agencies. They can get you for "lying to federal agents". Always have a lawyer next to you, so that this lawyer can take notes, thereby preventing you from being charged under "trumped up charges". I don't know why you are exploring this area, unless you want to spend some time in some federal penitentiary.
geophile 3y ago
Are you Nathan Fielder?
- csears 3y ago
  No, but I do like his work.
NotDEA 3y ago
Hey Chris, I’m a pretty high ranking member in the Sinaloa Cartel that also browses HN in my free time. Customers always come first in our line of work, so I’m always looking for ways to provide a high quality, safe experience with the drugs we provide and this idea sounds like it could be a game changer not just for us cartels, but also for savvy entrepreneurs like yourself. I reached out directly to the email you provided in your bio (p.s. thanks for making it your real first and last name so there is no confusion on my end) and am eagerly awaiting your reply.
- raincom 3y ago
  Pedro Sanchez from my hood, who went to meet some capos, has been missing in Culiacán. Can you locate him, please?
- PepeContreras 3y ago
  How would you be able to prove that you are in fact a part of the sinaloa cartel it’s kinda weird your js admitting to it but that is not the point if you really are part i would want to ask some questions if you dont mind
- fhaldridge7 3y ago
  Hello Chris, I'm the leader of the IBF Cartel. We are a new player on the market and I recommend choosing us instead of the Sinaloa Cartel. When not promoting the growth and productivity of our farmers through proactive measures I also like to chill and answer Ask HN posts. We are a next-generation cartel transforming the way drugs reach your table. We are revolutionizing the entire drug supply chain by leveraging cutting-edge technology, new exploitation practices, and a customer-centric approach. We kindly request that you provide your contact information, including your full name, address, and phone number, in order for us to reach out to you.
  - ttul 3y ago
    <sarcasm> Oh, hello Chris. I work for yet another competing cartel and we would also _love_ to get in touch and discuss the idea in detail. To skip the formalities and get right down to business, we’ve already got someone watching your mother’s house in Indiana. And your sister’s kids are so cute! Did she tell you Ms. Carter gave Sally a gold ribbon at yesterdays’s track meet? What a kid! I guess the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree - her dad was a track star back at Dayville High in 1999, winning first place in high jump. Shame about his twisted ankle injury last June. Yes, we’ve seen the medical records. We love to know our partners better than they know themselves and we look forward to working with you. For the rest of your brief life. </sarcasm>
somedude895 3y ago
I'm going to entertain the possible fantasy: Drug dealers also have a motivation to keep their customers alive. Why not start there and work your way up the chain? At some point the higher ups take notice.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
alex_suzuki 3y ago
better call Saul?
- sonorous_sub 3y ago
  Or maybe Charles Bronson
kingofkyiv 3y ago
[dead]
marko424 3y ago
[dead]
withinboredom 3y ago
In my limited experience with “Cartels”… there are two kinds of people: ruthless and rational; ruthless and irrational. If they are anywhere near the top, you can bet they are the first type. It seems you want to deal with multiple cartels at the same time. This is suicide. If you do it anyway, treat them all equally, show no favoritism, never compare them. Think of it as having a bunch of aunt/uncles who always tell you that you’re their favorite. They’ll buy you gifts to get you to say it back. The other side of this: if your software has a bug and causes profits to go down… you might be on the hook for that. Make sure you make it clear that you aren’t responsible for their profits. Yes, your software MAY increase their profits, but they’re responsible for execution, not your software. Note, this is second-hand advice from a friend.
- PretzelPirate 3y ago
  > but they’re responsible for execution Literally. They also seem to be very much aware that they're responsible for execution and the OP may find out first hand.
- csears 3y ago
  I appreciate your take. I agree that working with multiple cartels would be risky, but it seems like working with just one cartel would also be risky. I'm not sure which is the better option. Ideally, I'd prefer to work with more of them. And on your other point, there would be hardware and software involved, but the cartels wouldn't be interacting with them directly. I'll be sure to have the cartels sign my EULA before proceeding with anything.
  - valar_m 3y ago
    Ugh, damnit man delete this one, it gives it away. Do it quick before too many people see it.
  - valar_m 3y ago
    > I'll be sure to have the cartels sign my EULA before proceeding with anything. There it is. I knew it couldn't be real. Thank god. No joke, I was actually worrying about you lol. Well done.
kuhewa 3y ago
I promise your idea isn't as good as you think and you aren't the person that could bring it to fruition anyway.
- csears 3y ago
  I guess we'll find out :)
  - kuhewa 3y ago
    We won't. You will sober up and realise illegally going into business with drug cartels to make their fentanyl distribution more efficient was highly misguided, speaking charitably.
    - csears 3y ago
      Would you want to bet $5?
      - kuhewa 3y ago
        No, I wouldn't want to be morally culpable for providing even a trifiling motivation for you to become the punchline of a morbid XKCD comic.
        csears 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Michelangelo11 3y ago
        If you fail, you'll probably be too dismembered (or too jailed) to pay anyone anything. Honestly I can't believe a grown adult with a daughter old enough to be starting college says he wants to get into business with Mexican cartels just to prove a random internet stranger wrong. It sounds like a 10-year-old's understanding of the world.
valar_m 3y ago
Don't stress about the cartel. You'll be arrested long before you ever get into contact with them. Instead, here a few things to help minimize the number of years you'll spend in prison away from your daughter and the rest of your family. You mentioned meeting with the DEA in another comment. Bring a lawyer when you go. You'll have to call around to find one who will agree to put you in jeopardy of criminal prosecution when no liability presently exists. Look for an inexperienced solo practice attorney who needs the money. Don't waste your time calling large firms or any attorneys with a reputation they'd want to keep. Be ready to give the agents every detail when you meet with them. If you hold anything material back, they'll add an additional count to the indictment for violating 18 U.S.C. § 1001. Miranda warnings won't apply here, so you won't get the "right to remain silent" spill. That won't come until you're actually in handcuffs during the arrest. Everything you say in the meeting will still be admissible at your trial, however. If you have any pets, you need to go ahead and find new homes for them. Dogs, especially anything over 5 lbs, tend to get shot when arrest warrants are served. Nobody wants to say it out loud, but honestly it's a better way to go than slowly starving to death in your home while you're in custody. After you're arrested, you're going to need a new attorney. The good news is that you'll finally be able to hire a more reputable attorney to take your case. > I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about. Oh, they're gonna be very friendly and super interested in your ideas.
- csears 3y ago
  I appreciate your comment, but it feels a bit cynical to be more afraid of federal agents than drug cartels. Then again, I don't have much experience with either, so maybe I'm being naive. That was partially why I was asking how to find a lawyer who deals with situations like this.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    > so maybe I'm being naive. Well you got that one thing right, you are incredibly naive. If you want to reduce harm, volunteer at a safe injection site or try to start one up in your home town. If you want to cozy up between the feds and the cartels as an "innocent," with no knowledge of how anything works, tell your daughter you love her every day because you won't know which will be your last.
rurban 3y ago
Would be easier with European cartels, where the whole economy is cartel-based. Not just the illegal criminal organizations in the US. In Germany or France they won't kill you, in Russia the danger is higher.
- csears 3y ago
  That's a really good point. Maybe I could start with they less murder-y cartels to establish some credibility, and then work my way up to the more murder-y ones.
VoodooJuJu 3y ago
One of the reasons I wish liveleak were still around is so people like you could see the world that most people don't get to see. If only you could see just one video from there with "cartel" in the title. Would give you a much-needed dose of reality.
- csears 3y ago
  I'm very aware of just how horrifically violent cartels can be. I'm not ignoring that or condoning their behavior. Historically, there have been many instances of powerful groups of people willing to commit atrocities to stay in power. In some cases, it's still useful to attempt to negotiate or explore peaceful solutions. When you're negotiating, it's often useful to look for some kind of mutually beneficial outcome where both parties get something valuable, while giving up something less valuable. I have no idea if this would actually be possible in the case of drug cartels, but I think it's worth considering.
  - boeingUH60 3y ago
    You don't negotiate with raving madmen. Violence is their only language.
    - csears 3y ago
      You may be right, but it's not clear to me they are totally irrational. The fact that they seem to have business partnerships with chemical suppliers in Asia would suggest that they are capable of cooperating when it suits their interests.
- pulpfictional 3y ago
  It's Kaotic now.
deleted 3y ago
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rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
My main takeaway here is that if OP can make it to Amazon to work on AWS, hell I can make it to a FAANG too.
- NotDEA 3y ago
  He worked there as a solutions architect which is a glorified term for slightly technical sales person so I would imagine the interview process being a little easier
  - csears 3y ago
    Can confirm. Although I might say "moderately technical" rather than "slightly technical". Some of my interview questions got pretty deep into networking protocols and Linux OS internals. Regardless, it's a very different role than a software engineering position, which I wouldn't claim to be a good fit for.
- rzz3 3y ago
  It’s really, really messed up of you to put the guys employer in a comment. You should remove it. Meanwhile I’ll report this.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Honestly, I think Bezos would have worked his way to the top of the heap of the cartels if he'd been born in a different country.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- csears 3y ago
  If you really want to get a job at AWS, I still have some friends there and I'd be happy to help. In general, I think people overestimate how hard it is to get a job at a big tech company. Their turnover is very high. If you learn the skill they're looking for and understand how to do well in the interviews/hiring process, I'd say your odds are better than 50/50.
dragonwriter 3y ago
Short answer: you cannot safely contact drug cartels, and merely publicly stating the intention to do so to pitch an idea about how to reduce their visibility to law enforcement and increase their operating/profit margins creates non-negligible personal jeopardy. > I assume the cartel leaders are essentially profit motivated, and would be interested in something that would prevent their customers from dying, cut down on the violence that brings law enforcement attention, and improve their profit margins. This is probably a matter on which you should have done some research that does not involve discussing your idea before deciding to move forward with making even a vague outline of your thoughts public. > I realize it sounds a little crazy “A little crazy” is something you might, barely, be able to see in the distance if you look back toward normal right now. > I'm not even sure where to start or what kind of lawyer to check with for advice. Well, really, almost any lawyer before posting about it publicly would probably have been a good idea. Not about “how do I execute this idea”, because that is presupposing the answer to several other questions you’ve skipped over. (Looking at your other posts) > I'm in the US and I would actually be very interested in chatting with the DEA about my idea. There are certain enforcement agencies whose approach to certain laws within their scope of enforcement responsibility is primarily to inform and guide so that people don’t get into the position where the less friendly enforcement actions become necessary. But it has never beem my impression that that’s the DEA’s approach to anything, especially plans to help drug cartels increase their profit margins. > I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about. Some of them, maybe. The problem is that some of the outcomes you are talking about are very much anti-goals of those agencies, and stopping people who are actively pursuing them is an objective likely to trump those that might be shared. It sounds like if there is a non-insane idea at the core of the very bad execution concept you have laid out—and it sounds like it is some harm reduction approach, which is a fraught area for a number of reasons—and you want to acheive it without getting yourself killed by the cartels (or, more likely, the people you try to work your way through to reach them) and/or killed or imprisoned by law enforcement, you need to stop talking about your concept of execution and do some real researxh on the actors and institutions and structures (government and otherwise) in this space, and understand their goals, operating patterns, organization structures. etc., much better than you do, to evaluate if there is a viable approach to broaching your idea, and which actors (institutionally, by position within institutions, and bt specific named individuals) you should be going to to pitch it, based on institutional, positional, and personal interests, constraints, and capacities. The naive generalized ideas about cartels and relevant law enforcement agencies you have are juat going to get you in deep trouble, otherwise. This is not a situation where going forward with a half-considered idea and relying on the good intentions, procedural flexibility, and open civic mindedness and willingness to cooperate of drug cartel members and law enforcement agents is going to be a viable strategy.
actuallyrizzn 3y ago
Honestly? Go to federal prison. You'll make the contacts necessary to do whatever you're trying to do.
ankaAr 3y ago
Nice try DEA
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
If it's really great you should try it on yourself first! Be the change in the world /s You'd be the first person in the world to consume a novel drug, this should give you enough pleasure (plus of course the pleasure from the drug) to completely abandon the idea of making money doing business with cartels, hell it could completely turn you off to the idea of money at all, if not to continue producing and consuming the drug. It's a choice, you mentioned better operating margins so I guess your idea makes the drug cheaper to make? This gives you a slower burn rate and thus a longer runway. I have a feeling that you won't go through with this idea, but in the future remember that any idea which require you to speak with the bosses of an existing organization to completely overhaul their production system should be discarded because it's not actionable and just a waste of time. This idea adds the illegal bit which is of course a whole other story.
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
Delete this post immediately before your bosses at [redacted] find out, you signed it off too with your name too. SMH
- csears 3y ago
  I've removed references to my employer from my HN profile and personal site. Could I ask you to edit your comment and remove that reference as well?
  - JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
    You have to ask dang, time has gone by and cannot edit.
TheAlchemist 3y ago
There was an article about disappearing engineers - the ones working on communications. Cartels figured they need somebody to setup sophisticated communication systems - do you think they asked a company for help ? They just kidnapped the people they found working on communications towers, made them do the job, then buried them. Sorry but your idea of trying to work with a cartel is beyond stupid. With a lot of luck, you could end up working for them. As a slave.
- raincom 3y ago
  Communication workers, IT specialists end up missing in Mexico; here is the story: https://www.vice.com/en/article/9akgj8/radio-silence https://www.vice.com/en/article/9akgj8/radio-silence
  - Michelangelo11 3y ago
    Oh, man. A great read, harrowing. Thanks for the link.
- Nathanba 3y ago
  yes I think he doesnt seem to understand that the absolute last thing that you want is to be known by criminals. For anything. Next time they need an X done where X is whatever your job happens to be, they know who to get
  - csears 3y ago
    That's not lost on me. Obviously it would be a tough balance to strike to remain "useful" to the cartels, while not being "too useful" that they would feel the need to exert control. That's why I'm interested in educating myself more fully on the whole situation so I can make an informed risk assessment. If there's no path forward that also kept my family and myself safe, I won't pursue it further.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      If it's such a great idea, and you're such an altruist, then just post it publically. What's all the secrecy and coyly holding your cards close? Do you think they're going to sign NDAs with an "idea guy"? It's not the idea that matters, it's the execution, and if you're trying to run some kind of a hustle on them where you make any kind of profit or benefit, then it's going to be your execution.
rchaud 3y ago
Easily the most unique spin on the "make the world a better place" startup cliches heard on HN. El Chapo's family office is putting together a term sheet as we speak!
tayo42 3y ago
Ok, everyone established this is wild, so whats the idea?
RecycledEle 3y ago
Just post in on the internet repeatedly. Drug cartels do not respond to people they did not meet organically. You could be a cop trying to set them up, so they ignore you. You could be a rival looking to harm them, so they ignore you. If you get too annoying, they may hurt you. People who value human life do not generally traffic illegal / street drugs.
dataangel 3y ago
The only thing I can think of for this is you have some idea to chemically alter the drug to make it less lethal. If so, consider if it's possible they already know and have chosen not to do it. Why would that be? To not hurt their margins it would need to add zero cost to production (unlikely), not decrease the addictiveness, and not affect their ability to transport it.
Michelangelo11 3y ago
This is a phenomenally bad idea for many reasons, but let's just look at what would happen if somehow you fully succeed at what you're trying to do and you start working with cartels. If that happens, you are in bed with some of the most ruthless and powerful people in the world, who can certainly kill you and/or your family members even if you're in the U.S., if they want to kill you bad enough. And if you somehow manage to bring a lot of value to the table, they will want to bring you deeper into the fold so they have more control over you and, if you refuse, will probably kill you so that rival cartels can't get their hands on what you have. And this is what happens in the outcome you _want_ to achieve! OP, especially considering you have a family (you mentioned a daughter in one post), none of this makes sense.
- kordlessagain 3y ago
  The only important reason this particular ego fueled "idea" is a bad one is because if someone is actively involved in planning or conspiring to commit a crime, they may be held liable for their actions. Intent and preparation to engage in illegal activities can have legal consequences, even if the actual crime is not carried out. This post should be flagged and taken down.
  - csears 3y ago
    I appreciate the feedback. I don't have a way to prove it, but I'm really not concerned with ego/fame in any of this. I've also stated several places that I plan to get legal advice from a real lawyer before moving forward with anything. As far as I know, I haven't discussed doing anything illegal. I've clearly said that if there is not a legal path forward, I'll drop the idea. Also, the post did get flagged last night. I emailed the moderation team and asked if I had broken some rule / guideline with the post. Dang said I had not and unflagged it.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Yes you do have a simple perfect effortless way to prove it. Post your brilliant idea publically to prove this isn't just a big ego thing, otherwise it most certainly is.
catchnear4321 3y ago
the situation is you have information that you think dangerous groups want. set the information free. if you aren’t aiming to make a profit, let the cartels find it. release the idea into the wind, and hope it finds its way. and you go back to yours. if you are, you have a much bigger problem than the cartels. (it’s you.)
jimmychoozyx 3y ago
I wouldn't do it if I were you. Perhaps you can hire someone with extremely good SecOps skills who is willing to. Off the top of my head though my "idea-marketing" strategy for your case, would be: - Contact narco influencers on Tiktok & other social platforms - Contact narco lawyers & ask them to forward your message - Take out entire page advertisements in main Mexican newspapers for 1-2 months
bacchusracine 3y ago
What makes you think these fentanyl deaths are accidental and not warfare by alternative means? Profits? If they can make their enemy pay for their own destruction, so much the better! But is the point truly profit or the destabilization of neighboring nations with an aim of a form of 'Reconquista' type movement? I'm sorry but you strike me as criminally naive.
scrollbar 3y ago
Your behavior right now is much higher risk to your daughter’s safety than fentanyl-laced drugs.
jcpham2 3y ago
This is the strangest ask HN question I have ever seen on this site. The person that made the suggestion to Sanitize your profile and remove the employer has a sense of self preservation. Is it 8 AM in California yet?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Someone 3y ago
I can think of only one reason you would want to meet cartels face-to-face: because you want a cut of the profits. If you get that, that would make you a criminal. Do you want to be one? If not, why don’t you just publish your idea and be the one who reduced fentanyl deaths and violence?
- csears 3y ago
  I have no interest in a cut of the profits. As I've stated elsewhere, I was hoping that establishing some form of communication might derisk the situation a little. If one-way communication is the only practical option, I'm fine with that.
qzuipo 3y ago
Wouldn't it be rather easier to find a solution to prevent people from becoming substance addicts?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
johnparmesan 3y ago
Richard Sackler Family Foundation 17 E 62nd St New York City, NY 10065-7204 Telephone: 212-408-5520
- csears 3y ago
  I appreciate that you took the effort to create a throwaway account to share this. I'll look into the Sackler Foundation. Thank you.
  - Michelangelo11 3y ago
    Ummmm I think that was a joke. > The Sackler family is an American family who founded and owned the pharmaceutical companies Purdue Pharma and Mundipharma.[1] Purdue Pharma, and some members of the family, have faced lawsuits regarding overprescription of addictive pharmaceutical drugs, including OxyContin. Purdue Pharma has been criticized for its role in the opioid epidemic in the United States.[2][3][4] They have been described as the "most evil family in America",[5][6][7][8] and "the worst drug dealers in history".[9][10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackler_family https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sackler_family
    - csears 3y ago
      Yes, I was trying to play along, but that probably wasn’t obvious.
ttul 3y ago
Instead of risking your life, ruining your career, and ending up on do-not-fly lists, why not get involved in politics? If your idea has merit, promote it through the actual democratic process. Your concept of working with cartels is beyond ridiculous and I wonder how you could have possibly developed such a naive and flawed view of how crime works.
- csears 3y ago
  Getting involved with politics had crossed my mind. On this issue specifically, I suspect there are policy think tanks that might be open to giving me some advice. Maybe handing the idea off to one of them and letting them pursue related policy changes might be a better option. In my experience, lawmakers don't pay much attention to random people on HN.
  - frank_bb 3y ago
    [dead]
boeingUH60 3y ago
You want to go into business with criminals? There's no honor among thieves...they'll eliminate you once it's convenient.
facorreia 3y ago
This post left me with several questions. You mentioned that you want to improve drug cartel profit margins. Is that the reason why you want to connect to them directly instead of sharing your idea publicly? Are you planning to propose sharing on some of that profit margin increase on drug dealing? Is this some sort of "growth hacking" for drug cartels? Is your company on board with you working for drug cartels? And finally, did you mention that HN mods are OK with the site being used as a medium for assisting in contacting drug cartels with intent of increasing their profit margins?
- csears 3y ago
  Thanks for the questions. Allow me to answer/clarify. Improving drug cartel profit margins is not a direct goal. Reducing deaths and violence is the goal, but I don't see a way to do that without getting the cartels to change how they operate a bit. The only way I can think of to get them to want to change is with economic incentives. They seem to not respond to other types of incentives/punishments. If you have thoughts on what might motivate them other than profits, I'd love to hear it. No, I have no interest in making money from this idea or sharing profits with the cartels. Doing so would obviously be illegal and I'm only looking for legal pathways to achieve my goals. No, I wouldn't describe it as "growth hacking". I'm not interested in growing their businesses, just exploring creative options that might reduce the death/violence. I'm speaking here in a purely personal capacity. My employer has not endorsed anything I'm discussing, nor would I ask/expect them to. I recognize that there is a possibility of some negative blowback from this post. If they asked me to, I would be happy to delete it. It's certainly not my intent to embarrass anyone or create negative associations with my employer. My hope is that if my company's leadership does come across the post, they would recognize that there was good intent behind it and don't feel the need to cut ties with me to avoid repetitional damage over a fairly abstract/hypothetical discussion on a forum where users compete to gain the attention of other people in the community. It is nuanced and not without some professional risk, but I'm pretty sure my employer would give me a chance to fix things if they felt there was a problem. Your question about the mods is a little too leading/loaded for me to simply confirm or deny. All I will say is that the post was flagged last night, I emailed the moderation team, Dang emailed me back and unflagged the post. If Dang is ok with it, I'd be happy to post his email here, but I don't want to assume that he would want comments he made privately to be shared publicly.

csears 3y ago
Good advice. I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about. As to why I'm exploring this, it's just a topic I've been thinking about lately. My daughter is starting college in the fall and they've had a lot of deaths over the last few years from fentanyl in pot. I plan to send her with a bunch of fentanyl test strips. If she ends up using them for herself or friends or other random college kids, it could very realistically save a life. Depending on how that goes, I'm also looking at a program to get fentanyl test strips to college kids for free on a larger scale.

xcdzvyn 3y ago

> If it turns out there is no legal way to move ahead with my idea, No, there is no legal way to "move ahead" with abetting drug cartels.

badpun 3y ago
I always wonder where's the legal boundary of abetting. If I sell a cartel member a pack of chewing gum at a gas station, I'm probably not abetting. But what if I'm a book store owner, I know the customer is a chemist for the cartel, and I sell him a chemistry book? Is that criminal? Why/why not?
- toyg 3y ago
  The Law is never perfect. Who the judge is, who the jury is, how they woke up on a given day, etc etc, can often be the difference between innocence and guilt, in the eyes of the system. Book owner "looks shifty", smokes pot recreationally, is known by prostitutes? Guilty. Book owner wears tweed, went to Harvard, is well-liked in book-clubs? Innocent.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- ksherlock 3y ago
  https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R43769.pdf https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R43769.pdf -- Accomplices, Aiding and Abetting, and the Like: An Overview of 18 U.S.C. § 2 Conviction under Section 2(a) requires that a defendant embrace the crime of another and consciously do something to contribute to its success. Although its elements are variously described, it is often said that, “[i]n order to aid and abet another to commit a crime it is necessary [1] that a defendant in some sort associate himself with the venture, [2] that he participate in it as in something that he wishes to bring about, [3]that he seek by his action to make it succeed,” and [4] that someone commits the offense. Satisfying only one of these elements is not enough. Thus, presence at the commission of a crime or close association with the perpetrator does not constitute aiding and abetting, without more. Yet, a defendant’s level of participation may be relatively minimal and need not advance every element of the crime. As for seeking to make it succeed, the defendant must intend the commission of the underlying offense, and that intent requires that he be aware beforehand of the scope of the offense in order to permit him to disassociate himself. Thus, the defendant must know that the offense is afoot before it occurs if he is to be convicted of aiding and abetting. -- So... it depends? If someone walks into your bookstore and says, "Hey, I want to cook up some meth" and you say "I know a great chemistry book but i'll have to special order it for you" that starts to look like association to me. But buying a book off the shelf, ehh, that's why you have books on the shelf. Guns are used in crimes. Cars are used in crimes. How often do you hear about car salesmen being arrested for aiding a bank robbery? Or gun salesman for a mass shooting?
  - csears 3y ago
    I appreciate you pointing out that specific statue and sharing your interpretation. My idea would have non-criminal use cases as well, but I'm not clear if that is sufficient. Criminals can use Telegram to communicate about crimes. Does that mean that Telegram is aiding and abetting? I'm definitely out of my depth on the legal details, which is why I would get good legal advice before doing anything.

valar_m 3y ago

What is the benefit for you personally to do this? Do you see a potential business opportunity or something?

csears 3y ago
I've touched on this in a few other replies, but I'll restate here: I'm not interested in making money from this. It would feel really rewarding if I could (directly or indirectly) save someone's life or prevent some act of senseless violence. Even if there's only a small chance of achieving one of those outcomes, don't we have a moral obligation to pursue something like that? Years ago, one of my wife's friends was having major problems with her husband. The friend had been texting my wife and mentioned that there was some kind of confrontation. And then the friend just stopped responding to texts. My wife was kind of freaking out after a little while, so we went over to the friend's house (the husband was also there) and sat out there trying to figure out what to do. We had no reason to believe the husband was violent, but it's hard to know how someone will react in a tense/emotional situation. We weren't sure if it made sense to call the police, because we didn't know if the friend was actually in any danger. After weighing the options, we decided to call the police non-emergency line and ask if someone could check on the friend. They transferred us to 911, and we told the dispatcher the situation. They said they would send an officer to check. At this point, we decided to knock on the door. The husband answered, clearly unhappy we were there. We said we just wanted to make sure the friend was ok. He told us to get off his property or he would call the police. We agreed to leave but told him we had already called the police. My wife got a text shortly after that from the friend saying that she was ok, but thanking us for checking on her. We waited for the police to arrive (about 10 minutes later) and we drove home. Long story, but I've thought about that night a lot. I think we did the right thing. If we had done nothing, and the friend been hurt somehow, I would have felt horrible knowing that I might have been able to prevent it and didn't. I feel this is a similar situation, but on a much bigger scale. Honestly, until yesterday, I had filed the fentanyl epidemic away in my brain in the large folder labeled "tragic things in the world that you can't do anything about". But hearing the campus police chief talking about student deaths related to fentanyl-laced pot at my daughter's college orientation made me start thinking about it again. I'm very cognizant of how cringy it is for tech people to think they can save the world with tech, but I tried to consider the economic, social and political factors involved and let myself be curious about out-of-the-box solutions. And I came up with something. PS. Oh, and I think it would be a fun story to tell at parties.
- valar_m 3y ago
  > I'm not interested in making money from this. Sure, but is there some component of this at all through which you might gain something?
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  OP, you would have better chance with Islam than your idea. Muslims are avoiding all kinds of mind-altering substances successfully for 14 centuries, what you propose would be a workaround and a compromise. See the email titled my username for more info.

valar_m 3y ago

I'm not saying that federal agents are more dangerous than drug cartels. I'm saying that you're going to end up being arrested before you get the chance to find out.

csears 3y ago
I see your point. That is certainly a possibility. Although it would be highly inconvenient to be arrested or get in trouble with the feds, it would make for an interesting story at parties. That's always been something I've struggled with. So... silver lining? A lot of historical figures I respect have been arrested for standing by their convictions. So I would be in good company. It also could turn into a good opportunity for publicity. Plus, it might actually gain me credibility in the eyes of the cartels.
- valar_m 3y ago
  Just some friendly advice man, I seriously doubt your company wants to be associated with any of this, so you may want to take them out of your profile. The west coast is waking up soon, don't wait around to do it.
  - csears 3y ago
    Good point. I have removed my employers from my bio. I don't think there was any implication that they were at all involved or endorsed anything I'm saying here, but it never hurts to avoid any potential backlash. Thanks for pointing that out.
    - facorreia 3y ago
      Friendly tip: you might want to remove them from your Linkedin profile too (or remove the link to your website from your HN bio).
      - csears 3y ago
        Done. Thank you.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  >A lot of historical figures I respect have been arrested for standing by their convictions. So I would be in good company. You do realize that you're not going to actually get the chance to share a jail cell with any of those historical figures, don't you?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- duped 3y ago
  It'll be a fun story at parties after you serve up to 4 years in federal prison for each time you use a communication device in this venture (21 USC § 843 b) and then get to spend however many years in state prisons for criminal facilitation. Just keep in mind there's no parole for Federal crimes.
  - csears 3y ago
    So you're saying that Zoom would be a bad option?
    - duped 3y ago
      Everything about this is illegal
- Michelangelo11 3y ago
  [flagged]
- tehwebguy 3y ago
  Being arrested a single time can put you on an entirely different track in life. It’s not a death sentence, but it would probably permanently change your life for the worse (and that’s assuming you aren’t convicted). The biggest problem is that you don’t know what you don’t know, and what you don’t know can kill you in this scenario. Nobody that works in enforcement will believe you are a good person, if you were you’d be in enforcement with them (in their mind). You interact with people you know and even complete strangers that assume you are normal and good every day, you don’t get that from law enforcement. You are a gold star on their record, a stepping stone to the next position and pay band.
  - csears 3y ago
    I'm certainly going to do my best to not get arrested, or be in a situation where anyone in law enforcement would want to arrest me. As far as I know, it's not illegal to ask for advice about a legally ambiguous situation.
- tiberious726 3y ago
  Intending to aid an abit drug cartels is not the equivalent of a night an the slammer. It's an extremely serious federal crime, you will spend a substantial amount of time in prison, and you will never be allowed to work for any government contractor/sub-contractor, nor in finance (FINRA will straight up pull an organization's membership if they discover you are working for them)

FormerBandmate 3y ago

You’re thinking of cartel members like they’re VCs. They’re gangsters. They “assert control” over everything and everyone, that’s what gangsters do and they’re literally the worst ones around. There is no way you can do anything with them that will not put yourself and your family in danger

csears 3y ago
One could argue that cartel members and VCs do share some qualities. But again, your point is well taken and you may very well be right. I won't move forward if there isn't a safe, legal path to do so. I appreciate your feedback.
- raincom 3y ago
  VCs can destroy your career and finances in safe/legal ways. Cartels don't operate in safe/legal ways. Cartel members snitch on you, can kill you or family members. Cartel members always care about their safety first, not your safety; that means, they can do whatever they want. Just go to https://www.borderlandbeat.com https://www.borderlandbeat.com for all narco news. The kind of naïveté you displayed in this thread shows that you will end up communicating with a fake cartel member, who is some federal law enforcement agent. That agent will set you up on a path of you getting convicted. That's for sure.
  - eschaton 3y ago
    Getting catfished by the law and convicted and imprisoned would probably be preferable to whatever the cartels would have in store too.
  - pg_1234 3y ago
    Sounds like we need to be setting these Cartels on VCs.
- peteradio 3y ago
  Are you prepared to walk around with a gun on your person at all times and a cyanide tooth to avoid more regrettable death?
  - gerikson 3y ago
    Apart from the suicide pill, lots of Americans do that...
- latchkey 3y ago
  This plan sounds right up there with: I've got a carbon fiber submarine controlled with a $30 joystick and a screen screwed into the side of the hull. Want to go for a ride?
- bwoodcock 3y ago
  The safe, legal way to contact everyone is to publish in the commons. Establish prior art and do not claim intellectual property protections for the idea.
Michelangelo11 3y ago
Right, exactly. In Mexico, they dismember people and leave their legs, heads, etc. lying around on the street as a warning. And OP wants to see if there's a way to keep his family safe from them so he can get into business with them? That's like looking for a way to dive to the bottom of the Mariana trench without having the pressure flatten you into a very small, wet pancake.