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Ever Given report highlights Suez Canal pilots’ role in grounding
- bombcar 3y agoCaptains are basically screwed in these situations as the ship responsibly falls on them but if they intervene or interfere with the pilots responsibility falls on them. It’s a catch 22 and he probably should have demanded tugs but then he’d be in trouble with the bosses for costings. Do it fast do it cheap and don’t fuck up.
- gpm 3y agoDoes anyone know what consequences the Captain of the Ever Given has actually faced?
- that_guy_iain 3y ago[flagged]
- CameronNemo 3y agoYeah if I wanted to ask an LLM I would not have commented in a human discussion forum.
- that_guy_iain 3y ago[flagged]
- CameronNemo 3y agoIMHO your response is worse than no response at all. While the captain, his crew, and the ship were basically held hostage while a settlement was being negotiated (so the detention claim is true), searches of DuckDuckGo, Google, and Wikipedia do not yield any claims that the captain is being charged with reckless navigation or any other crime.
- jay_kyburz 3y agoNow I _really_ want to know if Bard knows something than an English Google search didn't
- ptaffs 3y agoI think you know Bard doesn't. These systems literally make things up in a convincing way. The lawyers who were prosecuted "believed ChatGPT had greater reach than standard databases." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/nyregion/lawyer-chatgpt-sanctions.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/nyregion/lawyer-chatgpt-s...
- ChristianGeek 3y agoHis license was suspended at the end of last year: https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/ever-forward-captain-has-license-suspended-after-grounding-ship-in-chesapeake-bay-cargo-ship-commercial-vessel-navigate-waterway-personal-cell-phone-texts-calls-messages-emails-portable-pilot-unit-us-coast-guard https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/ever-forward-captain-h...
- gusgus01 3y agoThat's a different ship and different captain: Ever Forward and Captain Steven Germac. The ship in the Suez Canal was Ever Given and Captain Krishnan Kanthavel.
- ChristianGeek 3y agoYou’re absolutely correct; my apologies.
- quercusa 3y agoThe Panama Maritime Authority made several recommendations, including... paying attention during transit. Who could argue?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- that_guy_iain 3y ago> Addressing the language barrier, the report states: “Language difficulties can also add to problems associated with pilots and these should be considered. In the case of M/V EVER GIVEN, although Pilots orders were given in English language, the discussion between them was always in Arabic language, therefore the Bridge Team, could not understand pilots concerns (if any), the potential hazards, in order to on time and effectively conduct risk assessment.” Having worked in a multinational company where many people speak other languages than the offical language I have noticed that people often don't realise how important it is to understand why they came to a decision. They'll discuss something in a second language then say the outcome to everyone. Often people don't want to make a fuss and ask how they came to that conclusion and important information is kept from the team. I've seen the issues this cause on non important issues in tech. I can't imagine how it feels when it comes to important things where people's safety is involed.
- xyzelement 3y ago[flagged]
- jxramos 3y agoah yah, if there was a wrong detour along the route to the conclusion or something was incorrectly assumed, some bad premise relied upon, those junction points for interjection are all inaccessible when they unfold in an non-official language.
- the8472 3y agoThat's not really specific to the language barrier though. Anything discussed verbally will be lost to those who are not present, irrespective of discussion language. Ticket with motivation, proposed solutions, considered alternatives, links to larger context. That should be the standard for many processes.
- zbrozek 3y agoThough probably not for steering a boat, which has some real-time constraints.
- AlbertCory 3y agoI've seen the wind cited as a Black Swan, but I think it's really a known unknown. You know there can be high winds in the desert. As for visibility: I'm not on the scene, but one would think that, with all the money at stake, the canal and the ships would have enough instrumentation that visuals are completely unnecessary.
- bjornasm 3y agoWe dont have fail safe sensor technologies for cars, so I dont think we should expect to have it for ships that have even a greater need to know things in advance.
- AlbertCory 3y agoI was just thinking about knowing how far you are from the banks. Surely that's a solvable problem. It has nothing to do with knowing things in advance.
- mbreese 3y agoI'd suspect the issue would be with precision. GPS, et al. are good, but at what resolution do you really need it to be? Is 1m accuracy enough? 1m at what point on the ship? And do you want to install that equipment on each ship traversing the Suez Canal? It was pretty clear from the report that they had a ton of data about the ship's speed, position, rotation, etc. It was quite detailed, not knowing where they were wasn't the problem. The report also showed how much the wind was changing directions at the time. It was all over the place. Again, it was a known factor, just not given the appropriate weight.
- AlbertCory 3y agoLIDAR is cheap enough to put on a consumer car, so I really don't think expense is an issue. It wouldn't be GPS. Not to mention the ships most likely already have transponders. So it does seem like a "You're getting too close to the bank!" alarm should have been screaming at them. And probably was. Not responding properly was the issue.
- joosters 3y agoA bit off-topic, but it is refreshing to see a news article that can be bothered to link to the full report!
- mbreese 3y agoIt is a news article on a site for the maritime industry... With that audience, there is probably an expectation to link to the actual report. I wouldn't have that expectation for a mainstream source (CNN, NYT, BBC, etc...), because that's not the audience. gCaptain's audience would have much more interest in reading the report directly (and be experts enough to interpret it). I'd also expect a tech site like ArsTechnica to link directly to a security CVE. Same concept, different audiences.
- greatfilter250 3y agoIf it doesn't link to primary sources, it's propaganda, not journalism. What's sad is that the word "news" now primarily refers to the former.
- Animats 3y agoThe actual report is quite good.[1] See especially page 26, the text that is underlined, in bold, and repeated in the executive summary. "After the wind had increased, the pilot was issuing more helm orders to the helmsman. These were either for hard to port or for hard to starboard, with few midships or lesser helm orders in between. The pilot did not give the helmsman a course to steer, only helm orders". That's the view from Panama, which puts a huge number of ships through channels narrower than the Suez Canal. Fortunately, in the aftermath, the wild ideas proposed for getting the Ever Given out unstuck were ignored, and Smit Salvage, which is a very cautious outfit, was brought in. [1] https://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Final-Investigation-Report-Ever-Given-23-March-2021.pdf https://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Final-Invest...
- mongol 3y agoThis, taken together with the pilots speaking Arabic to each other with the bridge staff being unable to follow the discussion, gave me an impression of a very chaotic situation leading up to the grounding. Fortunately, it only caused material damage. Similar situation on an airplane would have been disasterous.
- bell-cot 3y agoAh, for the Good Old Days. When a ship's captain might have some real authority. I used to know both the Captain and Chief Engineer of a large ( 600+ foot long ) freighter on the Great Lakes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes ). The latter told stories about the former arguing (via radio) with the ship's owners, about speed vs. safety. At least once, after the Captain had backtracked the ship to a safe-ish anchorage in the face of worsening weather, he told the owners "I'll get your ship, crew, and cargo to [destination] long before the Edmund Fitzgerald does" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Fitzgerald ). (The actual language was saltier than that. The Captain got away with it, and retired a success.)
- darth_avocado 3y agoI’m surprised that ships still rely on so much manual navigation. In 2023, when most of the aircrafts are pretty much handled by the computer, why are ships not working with same amount of automation? Pilots and captains should only be present to handle difficult maneuvers and emergency situations.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- thedrbrian 3y ago>In 2023, when most of the aircrafts are pretty much handled by the computer, This has got to be top ten of most wrongest comments on hacker news.
- kayodelycaon 3y agoNah. It’s par for the course when you ask someone who is an expert in one field to comment on something outside of their expertise. If we consider modern large jet airliners and cargo planes to be equivalent to large ships, most of those planes have advanced automation. :)
- bombcar 3y agoWhile it’s true that category III autoland exists, almost all of autopilot is done via the big sky theory. Airplane automation has more in common with drawing a line on a map than with piloting a big ship in a small canal.
- creatonez 3y agoPretty much all ships have some form of auto pilot suitable for the open ocean, but navigating the Suez Canal is an incredibly tedious process due to how narrow it is. During the original Suez blockage news cycle, some maritime experts pointed out just how absurdly stressful it is to navigate a canal: > [Captain Bill Kavanagh] said: “The procedure is very stressful for the ship. Those ships are on the high seas and have a very good routine. Then they arrive in Port Said or even Suez… and suddenly all hell breaks loose. > “There’s a lot going on, a lot of people coming on board, the Suez Canal crew come on board, and at least one pilot comes on board. Those ships are actually piloted by an expert who knows the canal very well… nevertheless, this is a stranger and a new person is part of the bridge team. > He explained that a convoy could consist of around 10 ships, while a large lake in the middle of the canal - the Great Bitter Lake - allows traffic to flow smoothly in both directions despite the canal itself only being a single lane. > [...] > However, he said physics effects such as the Bernoulli effect can result in very sudden changes in a ship’s course, while strong winds may have been another factor. CNN published a simulator where you get to try to go through the Suez Canal yourself: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/03/cnnix-steership/ https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/03/cnnix-steership/ This simulator is, of course, ignoring things like communication difficulties caused by language barrier (they speak Arabic), some of the more nitty gritty physics of the task, tides, safety concerns, etc. There is also a canal navigation simulator in meatspace, if you're up to the task - https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/a-mini-suez-canal-teaches-mariners-to-navigate-through-the-real-thing https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/a-mini-sue...
- mbreese 3y agoI think there are a lot of take home messages here that are applicable to many different situations. 1) Have a plan and try to stick to it. Rapid changes (hard port/hard starboard) without having a heading is dangerous. 2) Relying on local pilot/expert knowledge is important, but the captain knows their ship better. The expert should be considered an advisor and shouldn't be giving direct commands (especially without rationale). Experts can be wrong, so don't blindly follow their recommendations. 3) Communication is critical. The language barrier between the pilots and the ship's crew was pointed out repeatedly in the report. If you can't understand the rationale for a decision, blindly following it puts you at risk. It is important that everyone is communicating in a way that the whole team (pilot + ship crew) can understand. 4) The strong, changing winds were a known entity before the ship started the canal transit. Sometimes the risk isn't worth risking the whole ship and delay is warranted. Related -- don't be afraid to ask for help. Tug assistance would probably have made this crossing much less eventful. I very much view this incident through the lens of the XY problem[1] ... don't ask me how to do a solution. Instead, tell me the problem or what you are trying to achieve, and then we can figure out the best solution to a problem. In this case, the pilots kept telling the helm to steer hard to port/starboard. This made it difficult for the ship's crew to achieve the actual goal -- keep the ship in the middle of the canal. [1] https://xyproblem.info/ https://xyproblem.info/ It should also be noted that this is the Panama Maritime Authority's report (the country the ship is registered in). The Suez Canal Authority had their own assessment and didn't participate in this one at all. The initial SCA comments blamed weather and visibility for the grounding. Later they blamed the captain entirely (for too many commands, ironically). There is a lot of money at stake here, so reader beware.
- nradov 3y agoTugs would help, but shipping lines don't want to pay for them. If the master orders a tug for the Suez Canal transit then he might be out of a job.
- mbreese 3y agoHindsight being 20/20, using tugs would have been the cheaper option here. My guess is that there is now a different cost/benefit calculation for super large container ships traversing the canal during high wind conditions. Or at least, I hope there is.