4 ms·

EU might not force Apple to make iPhones with user-replaceable batteries

39 points by sva_ 3y ago

sva_ 3y ago
> One exemption says that waterproof devices do not have to feature user-replaceable batteries. That’s something I addressed before. The iPhone isn’t waterproof, but it’s pretty good at surviving after water-related accidents. I wouldn’t want to risk that feature by replacing the battery myself. > The second exemption is even more interesting. This is the good news I was referring to earlier. Smartphone vendors like Apple can continue using built-in batteries as long as they offer high-quality batteries. The battery should still have 83% health after 500 cycles. Or 80% health after 1,000 cycles.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  The first one seems to me like non-existing, the "exemption" is a derogation (in some very specific cases). The .pdf of the Law is here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023... https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT... In the preamble: >(39) To ensure the safety of end-users, this Regulation should provide for a limited derogation for portable batteries from the removability and replaceability requirements set for portable batteries concerning appliances that incorporate portable batteries and that are specifically designed to be used, for the majority of the active service of the appliance, in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion and that are intended to be washable or rinseable. This derogation should only apply when it is not possible, by way of redesign of the appliance, to ensure the safety of the end-user and the safe continued use of the appliance after the end-user has correctly followed the instructions to remove and replace the battery. Where the derogation applies, the product should be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals, and not by end-users. Then it is in Article 11, 2nd paragraph: >2 By way of derogation from paragraph 1, the following products incorporating portable batteries may be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals: (a) appliances specifically designed to operate primarily in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion, and that are intended to be washable or rinseable; The "operate primarily" as I understand it, may apply only to the new "iPhone Baywatch Edition" ;). I cannot find anything about the cited second "exemption" about number of cycles.
  - wryanzimmerman 3y ago
    If the result of this law is “iPhone Baywatch edition”that seems like a complete win. Worrying about your phone when you go to the beach and similar activities is super annoying.
    - jaclaz 3y ago
      Not so easy, according to the new (future) EU Law, you will need to be a licensed lifeguard to be allowed to buy and operate those "special" phones ;).
  - sva_ 3y ago
    Seems like these numbers come from the "EcoDesign" regulation. Strange to have two "competing" pieces of legislation https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/24/23771064/european-union-battery-regulation-ecodesign-user-replacable-batteries https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/24/23771064/european-union-b...
    - jaclaz 3y ago
      I see, thanks. The other article you just provided clears the matter, the one referenced in the thread seemed to attribute the "exemption" to the "battery regulation" one. But the "battery regulation" is already approved, while the "Ecodesign" is still only a draft (from what I can understand). It will be interesting to see how the EU will solve the "overlapping", it seems to me improbable that they will make in September (after the hypothetical approval of the "ecodesign" draft) an amendment to something approved only a few months before.
      - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
        > it seems to me improbable that they will make in September (after the hypothetical approval of the "ecodesign" draft) an amendment to something approved only a few months before. Par for the course with the EU especially when it comes to laws dealing with the environments. See for exemple the regulations linked to the green taxonomy where half of the material is still missing despite the law coming into force and where information about how the law should actually be applied are published months late. The EU is kind of a joke sometimes.
yungporko 3y ago
good. i care much more about my phone being watertight than i care about paying the trivial amount of money for a battery replacement (which so far i have needed to do zero times in my decade of iphone usage). the people who use iphones and people who want these changes forced on iphones just to stick it to apple have zero overlap.
- Pentamerous 3y ago
  Why is it being watertight important to you? What benefit will it remove from your experience?
  - wryanzimmerman 3y ago
    There are lots of situations where it’s nice to be able to have a phone with you, like going to the beach but still having transit maps to catch the bus back. Also swimming pools, rivers, rain, snow… you can go lots of places where a phone would most likely or definitely get soaked or submerged, and it’s useful to have a phone with you for payment, maps, messages, everything you normally use it for. Water is the only thing that has killed/broken phones for me in years.
  - tjohns 3y ago
    I have regretfully killed multiple phones by getting into a pool without realizing I still had my (non-waterproof) phone in my pocket. But outside my own forgetfulness, many people work outside in climates where heavy rain or snow is common. Given that we normally carry these devices with us 24/7, it makes sense to build them to survive real-world 24/7 conditions.
  - jryle70 3y ago
    Why watertight is a benefit, I suppose there are other benefits of phone with none-replaceable battery: 1) Require fewer parts, so less expensive to make and more environment friendly 2) Last longer, so replacements come less often, thus more environment friendly 3) Higher recyclable battery rate, since Apple has incentive to recycle the used batteries, consumers less so. The only benefit battery replaceable phone has is consumers having more control over their purchase and less likely to be screwed over by phone makers or sellers.
drekipus 3y ago
Funnily enough the waterproofness of the phone wouldn't be much of an argument if the phone data was easily recoverable / easy to repair / we had the right to repair
WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
That's bullshit, sounds like Apple lobbied hard with some good amount of cash.. typical business right, let's not call it corruption.. /s Samsung Xcover6 Pro for example is a water proof phone with a user-replaceable battery https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-xcover6-pro-review/ https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-xcover6-pro-review/

39 points by sva_ 3y ago

sva_ 3y ago

> One exemption says that waterproof devices do not have to feature user-replaceable batteries. That’s something I addressed before. The iPhone isn’t waterproof, but it’s pretty good at surviving after water-related accidents. I wouldn’t want to risk that feature by replacing the battery myself. > The second exemption is even more interesting. This is the good news I was referring to earlier. Smartphone vendors like Apple can continue using built-in batteries as long as they offer high-quality batteries. The battery should still have 83% health after 500 cycles. Or 80% health after 1,000 cycles.

jaclaz 3y ago
The first one seems to me like non-existing, the "exemption" is a derogation (in some very specific cases). The .pdf of the Law is here: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/07/10/council-adopts-new-regulation-on-batteries-and-waste-batteries/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023... https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-2-2023-INIT... In the preamble: >(39) To ensure the safety of end-users, this Regulation should provide for a limited derogation for portable batteries from the removability and replaceability requirements set for portable batteries concerning appliances that incorporate portable batteries and that are specifically designed to be used, for the majority of the active service of the appliance, in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion and that are intended to be washable or rinseable. This derogation should only apply when it is not possible, by way of redesign of the appliance, to ensure the safety of the end-user and the safe continued use of the appliance after the end-user has correctly followed the instructions to remove and replace the battery. Where the derogation applies, the product should be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals, and not by end-users. Then it is in Article 11, 2nd paragraph: >2 By way of derogation from paragraph 1, the following products incorporating portable batteries may be designed in such a way as to make the battery removable and replaceable only by independent professionals: (a) appliances specifically designed to operate primarily in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion, and that are intended to be washable or rinseable; The "operate primarily" as I understand it, may apply only to the new "iPhone Baywatch Edition" ;). I cannot find anything about the cited second "exemption" about number of cycles.
- wryanzimmerman 3y ago
  If the result of this law is “iPhone Baywatch edition”that seems like a complete win. Worrying about your phone when you go to the beach and similar activities is super annoying.
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    Not so easy, according to the new (future) EU Law, you will need to be a licensed lifeguard to be allowed to buy and operate those "special" phones ;).
- sva_ 3y ago
  Seems like these numbers come from the "EcoDesign" regulation. Strange to have two "competing" pieces of legislation https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/24/23771064/european-union-battery-regulation-ecodesign-user-replacable-batteries https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/24/23771064/european-union-b...
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    I see, thanks. The other article you just provided clears the matter, the one referenced in the thread seemed to attribute the "exemption" to the "battery regulation" one. But the "battery regulation" is already approved, while the "Ecodesign" is still only a draft (from what I can understand). It will be interesting to see how the EU will solve the "overlapping", it seems to me improbable that they will make in September (after the hypothetical approval of the "ecodesign" draft) an amendment to something approved only a few months before.
    - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
      > it seems to me improbable that they will make in September (after the hypothetical approval of the "ecodesign" draft) an amendment to something approved only a few months before. Par for the course with the EU especially when it comes to laws dealing with the environments. See for exemple the regulations linked to the green taxonomy where half of the material is still missing despite the law coming into force and where information about how the law should actually be applied are published months late. The EU is kind of a joke sometimes.

yungporko 3y ago

good. i care much more about my phone being watertight than i care about paying the trivial amount of money for a battery replacement (which so far i have needed to do zero times in my decade of iphone usage). the people who use iphones and people who want these changes forced on iphones just to stick it to apple have zero overlap.

Pentamerous 3y ago
Why is it being watertight important to you? What benefit will it remove from your experience?
- wryanzimmerman 3y ago
  There are lots of situations where it’s nice to be able to have a phone with you, like going to the beach but still having transit maps to catch the bus back. Also swimming pools, rivers, rain, snow… you can go lots of places where a phone would most likely or definitely get soaked or submerged, and it’s useful to have a phone with you for payment, maps, messages, everything you normally use it for. Water is the only thing that has killed/broken phones for me in years.
- tjohns 3y ago
  I have regretfully killed multiple phones by getting into a pool without realizing I still had my (non-waterproof) phone in my pocket. But outside my own forgetfulness, many people work outside in climates where heavy rain or snow is common. Given that we normally carry these devices with us 24/7, it makes sense to build them to survive real-world 24/7 conditions.
- jryle70 3y ago
  Why watertight is a benefit, I suppose there are other benefits of phone with none-replaceable battery: 1) Require fewer parts, so less expensive to make and more environment friendly 2) Last longer, so replacements come less often, thus more environment friendly 3) Higher recyclable battery rate, since Apple has incentive to recycle the used batteries, consumers less so. The only benefit battery replaceable phone has is consumers having more control over their purchase and less likely to be screwed over by phone makers or sellers.

drekipus 3y ago

Funnily enough the waterproofness of the phone wouldn't be much of an argument if the phone data was easily recoverable / easy to repair / we had the right to repair

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago

That's bullshit, sounds like Apple lobbied hard with some good amount of cash.. typical business right, let's not call it corruption.. /s Samsung Xcover6 Pro for example is a water proof phone with a user-replaceable battery https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-xcover6-pro-review/ https://www.androidpolice.com/samsung-xcover6-pro-review/