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Counterculture requires gatekeeping, because most people can't take it, ESPECIALLY anyone who uses Instragram The best times I've had were having parties where

by tekla 3y ago

Counterculture requires gatekeeping, because most people can't take it, ESPECIALLY anyone who uses Instragram The best times I've had were having parties where we would work on cool exhibits with barely contained pyrotechnics, Tesla coils that would kill you if you touched it, and an expectation that YOU DO NOT PUT IT ON THE INTERNET and if you get hurt, YOU DID NOT GET HURT HERE. Everyone wants a nice and curated experience of "counterculture" until they get into a scenario where they are the only person not cool with losing a finger or two from doing something fucking awesome

JohnFen 3y ago
Yes. Social media in general, and particularly things like FB, IG or Tiktok, are the exact opposite of "counterculture".
- rchaud 3y ago
  Depends which side of the funnel you're on. To some, "move fast, break things" is counter-cultural, even if the term comes from an erstwhile hoodie-clad CEO that rapidly mutated into the biggest suit in corporate history.
ipaddr 3y ago
If you are risking fingers, cutting off body parts or taking dumb risks just stop. It's not worth it. It's not cool or interesting. These are the things you regret later. You did not get hurt here works until someone does get hurt and the hammer comes down on you.
- tekla 3y ago
  This is why people think counterculture is dead. I've hurt myself badly many times and have never regretted it, because it was fun and incredibly intellectually satisfying. I know no-one at these places that regret it, everyone accepts that that they are all working to a common goal of being awesome
  - jahewson 3y ago
    I’ve never met anyone who regretted causing their own death either.
    - tekla 3y ago
      You may be surprised to learn some people survive being "dead" for a short while. I know at least two and neither regretted it, it was just a cool story.
  - unsupp0rted 3y ago
    Survivorship bias
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    No one at the events can admit to regretting it because they will be kicked out of the social group. The need for acceptance is greater than intellectual curiosity otherwise these riskful action would happen privately. That only happens for the few mental ill leaders. The rest are looking for excitement, social acceptance (from ingroup or stories later spread to new groups).
    - derefr 3y ago
      I think you're forgetting about the fact that people grow old and stop doing this, and therefore no longer have any social pressure on them to not speak ill of the idea? These parties have (presumably) been going on for a long time. If people wanted to speak out against them, then there'd be 50-year-olds writing angry screeds to "warn the youth of today" about "the mistakes they made in their own youth, and deeply regretted, but couldn't speak out at the time." But we don't see that.
  - carapace 3y ago
    It's all fun and games until... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire
- tyho 3y ago
  This is an attitude today which is almost universal in Anglo countries, yet those very same countries would never have developed as much as they have had it been present in the past. Safetyism is killing Western Civilisation.
- sodapopcan 3y ago
  I think you're missing the point of the comment. Saying "don't do these things" isn't helpful because people are going to do them regardless. OP is saying it should not be on the mainstream internet, ie, the open "gatekeeping required" statement.
  - mihaic 3y ago
    That post does make it sounds very cool to do all these things though, so I'd say it's good to have a balancing post that says that risking body parts for a thrill is uncool.
    - tekla 3y ago
      That's just like your opinion man.
    - haswell 3y ago
      > risking body parts for a thrill is uncool - Free divers - Rock climbers - Motorcycle riders - Mountain bikers - Sky divers - Skateboarders - Glider pilots - Base jumpers There is a vast array of body-part-risking hobbies with a spectrum of associated risk. While I’m not one to encourage obvious stupidity, bodily risk is at the center of so many things that humans value, that I think there’s a framing problem by saying this is just uncool. More interesting is to explore why people are drawn to these things to begin with, and to examine why we dismiss some categories of risk as unnecessary or stupid while other socially acceptable risks are part of our daily lives. When I was a kid, I was drawn to model rocketry. I’m surprised my fingers are all still intact, but some close calls quickly reoriented my precautionary measures (I started being a lot more careful). The book “Flow” explores why some people do the things they do, and it seems that engaging in risky endeavors like rock climbing can be rewarding because of the feeling of flow and control one experiences. “Try crazy stuff but be as safe as you can be, and avoid impacting others” seems better than “uncool”, IMO.
      - mihaic 3y ago
        Like some dude said, that's just, like, my opinion. I'm not forcing it on anyone, but I do want a fair chance of trying to convince others of it. I understand that mastery and control can come from dangerous activities, but I can still voice my disapproval of these activities, since you can get the same feeling through safer ways.
- abwizz 3y ago
  it's cool if you get throu it w/o loosing. i'd say they risk is what makes it interesting.
wtsktte 3y ago
I realize the irony of this question, but any suggestions on how to find these kinds of parties?
- tekla 3y ago
  Join a local art collective or makerspace/hackerspace. Be open to not crying on the internet because you got hurt or someone said mean things, that comes with the package. Eventually you may start connecting with people who know things
  - jhartwig 3y ago
    Good lord, HN nerds are just as bad as the Instagrammers they detest. Nobody is going to makerspaces and losing fingers and whining on social media.
    - tekla 3y ago
      You may want to re-read the thread.
    - derefr 3y ago
      Re-read the GP's statement. The parties are not at makerspaces. You just would expect to meet people at makerspaces who know where the local "weird parties" are, because they're the people making the shoddy contraptions for these parties.
burnished 3y ago
I don't go to cool parties like you do because I do not want to lose digits, but you hit the nail on the head; that which is transgressive gets bundled up safely and sold. It would not surprise me if that lead to the equivalent of tourists who do not understand why they are being scolded for approaching meese in a state park.
awongh 3y ago
Besides literal physical danger another aspect I’ve been thinking about is the counterculture of activities that simply aren’t optimized for the production of media native to the internet. Meditation or maybe partner dancing for example. There’s definitely plenty of internet content on both, but it feels to me like there’s certain things I can do that don’t as easily translate to an instagram story, and the reason I do them is because I benefit with some internally directed experience. A sort of connection with myself or another person. This feels like the exact opposite of doing something for the purpose of the resulting content and/or social approval.
tqi 3y ago
"Counterculture requires gatekeeping, because most people can't take it, ESPECIALLY anyone who uses Instragram" I think the word to describe counter culture is "exclusionary," and I suspect if a large crowd of "Instagram" people showed up at a "counterculture" gathering the counterculture-ists would be equally unable to "take it."
MisterTea 3y ago
To me, what you describe sounds like bravado and self indulgence in adrenaline with the goal of gaining clout. Counter culture is based on taking social risks which threaten the status quo. It does not need to include bodily risk. (edited for clarity)
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by tekla 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

Yes. Social media in general, and particularly things like FB, IG or Tiktok, are the exact opposite of "counterculture".

rchaud 3y ago
Depends which side of the funnel you're on. To some, "move fast, break things" is counter-cultural, even if the term comes from an erstwhile hoodie-clad CEO that rapidly mutated into the biggest suit in corporate history.

ipaddr 3y ago

If you are risking fingers, cutting off body parts or taking dumb risks just stop. It's not worth it. It's not cool or interesting. These are the things you regret later. You did not get hurt here works until someone does get hurt and the hammer comes down on you.

tekla 3y ago
This is why people think counterculture is dead. I've hurt myself badly many times and have never regretted it, because it was fun and incredibly intellectually satisfying. I know no-one at these places that regret it, everyone accepts that that they are all working to a common goal of being awesome
- jahewson 3y ago
  I’ve never met anyone who regretted causing their own death either.
  - tekla 3y ago
    You may be surprised to learn some people survive being "dead" for a short while. I know at least two and neither regretted it, it was just a cool story.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  Survivorship bias
- ipaddr 3y ago
  No one at the events can admit to regretting it because they will be kicked out of the social group. The need for acceptance is greater than intellectual curiosity otherwise these riskful action would happen privately. That only happens for the few mental ill leaders. The rest are looking for excitement, social acceptance (from ingroup or stories later spread to new groups).
  - derefr 3y ago
    I think you're forgetting about the fact that people grow old and stop doing this, and therefore no longer have any social pressure on them to not speak ill of the idea? These parties have (presumably) been going on for a long time. If people wanted to speak out against them, then there'd be 50-year-olds writing angry screeds to "warn the youth of today" about "the mistakes they made in their own youth, and deeply regretted, but couldn't speak out at the time." But we don't see that.
- carapace 3y ago
  It's all fun and games until... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Ship_warehouse_fire
tyho 3y ago
This is an attitude today which is almost universal in Anglo countries, yet those very same countries would never have developed as much as they have had it been present in the past. Safetyism is killing Western Civilisation.
sodapopcan 3y ago
I think you're missing the point of the comment. Saying "don't do these things" isn't helpful because people are going to do them regardless. OP is saying it should not be on the mainstream internet, ie, the open "gatekeeping required" statement.
- mihaic 3y ago
  That post does make it sounds very cool to do all these things though, so I'd say it's good to have a balancing post that says that risking body parts for a thrill is uncool.
  - tekla 3y ago
    That's just like your opinion man.
  - haswell 3y ago
    > risking body parts for a thrill is uncool - Free divers - Rock climbers - Motorcycle riders - Mountain bikers - Sky divers - Skateboarders - Glider pilots - Base jumpers There is a vast array of body-part-risking hobbies with a spectrum of associated risk. While I’m not one to encourage obvious stupidity, bodily risk is at the center of so many things that humans value, that I think there’s a framing problem by saying this is just uncool. More interesting is to explore why people are drawn to these things to begin with, and to examine why we dismiss some categories of risk as unnecessary or stupid while other socially acceptable risks are part of our daily lives. When I was a kid, I was drawn to model rocketry. I’m surprised my fingers are all still intact, but some close calls quickly reoriented my precautionary measures (I started being a lot more careful). The book “Flow” explores why some people do the things they do, and it seems that engaging in risky endeavors like rock climbing can be rewarding because of the feeling of flow and control one experiences. “Try crazy stuff but be as safe as you can be, and avoid impacting others” seems better than “uncool”, IMO.
    - mihaic 3y ago
      Like some dude said, that's just, like, my opinion. I'm not forcing it on anyone, but I do want a fair chance of trying to convince others of it. I understand that mastery and control can come from dangerous activities, but I can still voice my disapproval of these activities, since you can get the same feeling through safer ways.
abwizz 3y ago
it's cool if you get throu it w/o loosing. i'd say they risk is what makes it interesting.

wtsktte 3y ago

I realize the irony of this question, but any suggestions on how to find these kinds of parties?

tekla 3y ago
Join a local art collective or makerspace/hackerspace. Be open to not crying on the internet because you got hurt or someone said mean things, that comes with the package. Eventually you may start connecting with people who know things
- jhartwig 3y ago
  Good lord, HN nerds are just as bad as the Instagrammers they detest. Nobody is going to makerspaces and losing fingers and whining on social media.
  - tekla 3y ago
    You may want to re-read the thread.
  - derefr 3y ago
    Re-read the GP's statement. The parties are not at makerspaces. You just would expect to meet people at makerspaces who know where the local "weird parties" are, because they're the people making the shoddy contraptions for these parties.

burnished 3y ago

I don't go to cool parties like you do because I do not want to lose digits, but you hit the nail on the head; that which is transgressive gets bundled up safely and sold. It would not surprise me if that lead to the equivalent of tourists who do not understand why they are being scolded for approaching meese in a state park.

awongh 3y ago

Besides literal physical danger another aspect I’ve been thinking about is the counterculture of activities that simply aren’t optimized for the production of media native to the internet. Meditation or maybe partner dancing for example. There’s definitely plenty of internet content on both, but it feels to me like there’s certain things I can do that don’t as easily translate to an instagram story, and the reason I do them is because I benefit with some internally directed experience. A sort of connection with myself or another person. This feels like the exact opposite of doing something for the purpose of the resulting content and/or social approval.

tqi 3y ago

"Counterculture requires gatekeeping, because most people can't take it, ESPECIALLY anyone who uses Instragram" I think the word to describe counter culture is "exclusionary," and I suspect if a large crowd of "Instagram" people showed up at a "counterculture" gathering the counterculture-ists would be equally unable to "take it."

MisterTea 3y ago

To me, what you describe sounds like bravado and self indulgence in adrenaline with the goal of gaining clout. Counter culture is based on taking social risks which threaten the status quo. It does not need to include bodily risk. (edited for clarity)

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]