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In a time where tolerance and respect for minorities is slowly becoming mainstream, you could argue that the far-right has become counterculture. The far-right

In a time where tolerance and respect for minorities is slowly becoming mainstream, you could argue that the far-right has become counterculture. The far-right is VERY prevalent on both Instagram, Twitter and other social media.

helboi4 3y ago
I mean, there were racist skinheads back in the day at the same time as leftist countercultures existed. One side of the political spectrum doesn't get a monopoly. Both of them are countercultures compared to the centre.
andsoitis 3y ago
Relevant article: https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-new-counterculture/ https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-new-counterculture/
api 3y ago
I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. Part of the appeal of these ideologies is clearly that they are offensive, not permitted on mainstream platforms, and therefore are something that their participants can "own" and that won't be co-opted by consumerism. It's the same thing that fueled "Satanic" rock and similar things. Fascism is devil music. That most people are offended by it and mainstream authorities preach against it is a huge part of its appeal. Elon Musk might be damaging this a little. It's hard to think you're a rebellious counterculture when you have one of the world's richest men acting as a public torch bearer.
- acuozzo 3y ago
  > I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. The thing that mystifies me is that when parents get in on something it usually nukes the coolness factor, but the far right has an overwhelming supply of 50+ year olds on just about every platform and this has had no impact on its rise in popularity among the teens and twenty-somethings.
  - api 3y ago
    One thing the Internet has at least weakened is age stratification in culture, for the simple reason that it's hard to tell how old people are online. Also I'm not talking so much about Fox News right wingers. I'm talking about the 4chan /pol stuff. The stuff Fox provides is the radio-safe edit.
    - zen_1 3y ago
      Those goddamn 13 year old Estonians are at it again! https://estonianworld.com/security/a-global-neo-nazi-organisation-led-by-a-13-year-old-estonian-schoolboy/ https://estonianworld.com/security/a-global-neo-nazi-organis...
      - api 3y ago
        Yup. Teenage edgelords can create international movements now.
  - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
    That's because Boomer Humor is actually really funny when you get the unsanitized version. The lame Boomer jokes are just the ones that HR approves of.
- basisword 3y ago
  >> I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. I disagree that it makes them cool. Counter culture generally contributes something different and important enough that it eventually becomes the culture and hence the counter cultural people become 'cool'. Extreme ideology of any kind isn't contributing anything. It's an attempt to feel different/special/part of a group, but there's nothing cultural about it and it's not going to receive any validation from outside the group (that would make it cool).
- atchoo 3y ago
  That type of "cool" is not the threat, becoming mainstream is. A deplatformed niche like a few dozen neo-fascists in a street-fighting gang, can be contained, but if a hateful ideology is plaformed and funded, it can snowball. The crossover point is when it has enough power that moderates join it because of it's ubquity and benefits as if it were a career choice. It's this type of political force that dismantles democracies, encourages pogroms, commits state genocide, creates apartheid systems etc. Musk's funding of the far right has the much more terrifying trajectory of a Hitler not an Enrique Tarrio.
ipaddr 3y ago
You can always say the far left and far right are not mainstream if they were they wouldn't be labelled far...
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  That used to be true. Now, though, it seems that the left is labeling many things as "far right" that are not, and the right is doing the same to the left. Both are trying to shift the Overton Window their way by labeling the other side as "extreme" or "far" - that is, outside the window. I can win a lot of arguments if I define myself as the only one who should be allowed to speak...
spacemadness 3y ago
Sure, but is the unspoken context here “and that makes it cool”? Because it doesn’t make it cool.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  No one said that a counterculture has to be 'cool'. Some can be backward and bigoted, but stand in opposition to popular beliefs, and are counterculture none the less.
  - spacemadness 3y ago
    Oh people are trying if you look in the comments here. We have plenty of proud bigots here.
bityard 3y ago
There have always been countercultures which exist on the far-right (and far-left) of the political spectrum. But merely being far-right and far-left does not itself mean that its members belong to a counterculture. A defining feature of a counterculture is that its members consciously and deliberately reject mainstream values and norms. The people on the far-right/left may lead perfectly mainstream lives but hop on social media to prattle on about their extreme (compared to the median) political views. Political extremism has always existed, but social media algorithms (and yes that includes the HN comment system) incentivize controversy while penalizing moderate, rational viewpoints as "unpopular." So these extreme views tend to bubble to the top of people's feeds, making them appear "very prevalent" to the average person. This is one of MANY reasons that I have nothing to do with (most) social media anymore.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
I posted this comment elsewhere but it's better moved here: I honestly think modern conservatism could now be classified by a counterculture, because they define themselves more by what they're against than what they are for. Seriously, over the years I've wracked my brain wondering why conservatism has moved so far to the radical fringe to the point where they simply seem to stand in opposition to even the most uncontroversial stances on things like global warming, healthcare, vaccines, basic human rights, etc. This is all I got. The right has become a counterculture, and the best way to see what their next cause de jure will be is to see what's become commonly accepted as reasonable truth on the left.
- baryphonic 3y ago
  > Seriously, over the years I've wracked my brain wondering why conservatism has moved so far to the radical fringe to the point where they simply seem to stand in opposition to even the most uncontroversial stances on things like global warming, healthcare, vaccines, basic human rights, etc. Has conservatism "moved?" And if it has, has it moved to the right? If we were to time travel three generations ago, would the mainstream liberal culture then be more similar to the present day conservative culture or the present day liberal culture on the issues mentioned? I submit that a present-day conservative would likely be a staunch liberal in those days. The Left has simply moved much further to the left.
  - bamfly 3y ago
    > I submit that a present-day conservative would likely be a staunch liberal in those days. The Left has simply moved much further to the left. ... on social issues. The mainstream left and right, as far as those in power, remain about as similar on economics as they have since the right neoliberal movement took over both parties in the 80s—a position that both parties' extremes strongly disagree with, and that isn't particular popular among their electorate more generally (which is why Trump's just-say-what-R-voters-say platform fell, remarkably, outside that consensus) but which nonetheless drives most of both parties' activity, on that front.
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
dfxm12 3y ago
In a time where tolerance and respect for minorities is slowly becoming mainstream You could have said this at least for the last 70 years. It doesn't change the systemic issues that enable prejudice against minorities. This means prejudice is still more mainstream than tolerance. Recently, there was a SCOTUS ruling that allows one to refuse making websites for same sex couples. This whole case was based on a falsified request. https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-gay-marriage-website-real-straight-man-supreme-court https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-...
- Levitz 3y ago
  >You could have said this at least for the last 70 years. It doesn't change the systemic issues that enable prejudice against minorities. This means prejudice is still more mainstream than tolerance While I find it impossible to quantify, I think we can at least assure that prejudice is frowned upon by society. Things have definitely changed in 70 years. >Recently, there was a SCOTUS ruling that allows one to refuse making websites for same sex couples. No. It allows one to refuse making a product if making that product implies speech.
  - dfxm12 3y ago
    I think we can at least assure that prejudice is frowned upon by society. No, you can't. If it was, at a minimum SCOTUS wouldn't be playing games wrt signaling that it's OK do discriminate against same sex couples. Also at a minimum, we wouldn't have so much, let alone rising amounts of hate crime [0]. Unfortunately, society is pretty split on the whether prejudice is good or bad. 0 - https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-releases-supplemental-2021-hate-crime-statistics https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-releases-supplem...
    - Levitz 3y ago
      It seems to me that you are grasping at straws in order to paint a picture of oppression that doesn't match reality. I do believe that your convictions are good, but I don't think this helps them.

helboi4 3y ago

I mean, there were racist skinheads back in the day at the same time as leftist countercultures existed. One side of the political spectrum doesn't get a monopoly. Both of them are countercultures compared to the centre.

andsoitis 3y ago

Relevant article: https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-new-counterculture/ https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-new-counterculture/

api 3y ago

I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. Part of the appeal of these ideologies is clearly that they are offensive, not permitted on mainstream platforms, and therefore are something that their participants can "own" and that won't be co-opted by consumerism. It's the same thing that fueled "Satanic" rock and similar things. Fascism is devil music. That most people are offended by it and mainstream authorities preach against it is a huge part of its appeal. Elon Musk might be damaging this a little. It's hard to think you're a rebellious counterculture when you have one of the world's richest men acting as a public torch bearer.

acuozzo 3y ago
> I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. The thing that mystifies me is that when parents get in on something it usually nukes the coolness factor, but the far right has an overwhelming supply of 50+ year olds on just about every platform and this has had no impact on its rise in popularity among the teens and twenty-somethings.
- api 3y ago
  One thing the Internet has at least weakened is age stratification in culture, for the simple reason that it's hard to tell how old people are online. Also I'm not talking so much about Fox News right wingers. I'm talking about the 4chan /pol stuff. The stuff Fox provides is the radio-safe edit.
  - zen_1 3y ago
    Those goddamn 13 year old Estonians are at it again! https://estonianworld.com/security/a-global-neo-nazi-organisation-led-by-a-13-year-old-estonian-schoolboy/ https://estonianworld.com/security/a-global-neo-nazi-organis...
    - api 3y ago
      Yup. Teenage edgelords can create international movements now.
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  That's because Boomer Humor is actually really funny when you get the unsanitized version. The lame Boomer jokes are just the ones that HR approves of.
basisword 3y ago
>> I think this is the biggest argument against deplatforming: it actually makes them cool. I disagree that it makes them cool. Counter culture generally contributes something different and important enough that it eventually becomes the culture and hence the counter cultural people become 'cool'. Extreme ideology of any kind isn't contributing anything. It's an attempt to feel different/special/part of a group, but there's nothing cultural about it and it's not going to receive any validation from outside the group (that would make it cool).
atchoo 3y ago
That type of "cool" is not the threat, becoming mainstream is. A deplatformed niche like a few dozen neo-fascists in a street-fighting gang, can be contained, but if a hateful ideology is plaformed and funded, it can snowball. The crossover point is when it has enough power that moderates join it because of it's ubquity and benefits as if it were a career choice. It's this type of political force that dismantles democracies, encourages pogroms, commits state genocide, creates apartheid systems etc. Musk's funding of the far right has the much more terrifying trajectory of a Hitler not an Enrique Tarrio.

ipaddr 3y ago

You can always say the far left and far right are not mainstream if they were they wouldn't be labelled far...

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
That used to be true. Now, though, it seems that the left is labeling many things as "far right" that are not, and the right is doing the same to the left. Both are trying to shift the Overton Window their way by labeling the other side as "extreme" or "far" - that is, outside the window. I can win a lot of arguments if I define myself as the only one who should be allowed to speak...

spacemadness 3y ago

Sure, but is the unspoken context here “and that makes it cool”? Because it doesn’t make it cool.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago
No one said that a counterculture has to be 'cool'. Some can be backward and bigoted, but stand in opposition to popular beliefs, and are counterculture none the less.
- spacemadness 3y ago
  Oh people are trying if you look in the comments here. We have plenty of proud bigots here.

bityard 3y ago

There have always been countercultures which exist on the far-right (and far-left) of the political spectrum. But merely being far-right and far-left does not itself mean that its members belong to a counterculture. A defining feature of a counterculture is that its members consciously and deliberately reject mainstream values and norms. The people on the far-right/left may lead perfectly mainstream lives but hop on social media to prattle on about their extreme (compared to the median) political views. Political extremism has always existed, but social media algorithms (and yes that includes the HN comment system) incentivize controversy while penalizing moderate, rational viewpoints as "unpopular." So these extreme views tend to bubble to the top of people's feeds, making them appear "very prevalent" to the average person. This is one of MANY reasons that I have nothing to do with (most) social media anymore.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

I posted this comment elsewhere but it's better moved here: I honestly think modern conservatism could now be classified by a counterculture, because they define themselves more by what they're against than what they are for. Seriously, over the years I've wracked my brain wondering why conservatism has moved so far to the radical fringe to the point where they simply seem to stand in opposition to even the most uncontroversial stances on things like global warming, healthcare, vaccines, basic human rights, etc. This is all I got. The right has become a counterculture, and the best way to see what their next cause de jure will be is to see what's become commonly accepted as reasonable truth on the left.

baryphonic 3y ago
> Seriously, over the years I've wracked my brain wondering why conservatism has moved so far to the radical fringe to the point where they simply seem to stand in opposition to even the most uncontroversial stances on things like global warming, healthcare, vaccines, basic human rights, etc. Has conservatism "moved?" And if it has, has it moved to the right? If we were to time travel three generations ago, would the mainstream liberal culture then be more similar to the present day conservative culture or the present day liberal culture on the issues mentioned? I submit that a present-day conservative would likely be a staunch liberal in those days. The Left has simply moved much further to the left.
- bamfly 3y ago
  > I submit that a present-day conservative would likely be a staunch liberal in those days. The Left has simply moved much further to the left. ... on social issues. The mainstream left and right, as far as those in power, remain about as similar on economics as they have since the right neoliberal movement took over both parties in the 80s—a position that both parties' extremes strongly disagree with, and that isn't particular popular among their electorate more generally (which is why Trump's just-say-what-R-voters-say platform fell, remarkably, outside that consensus) but which nonetheless drives most of both parties' activity, on that front.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago

dfxm12 3y ago

In a time where tolerance and respect for minorities is slowly becoming mainstream You could have said this at least for the last 70 years. It doesn't change the systemic issues that enable prejudice against minorities. This means prejudice is still more mainstream than tolerance. Recently, there was a SCOTUS ruling that allows one to refuse making websites for same sex couples. This whole case was based on a falsified request. https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-gay-marriage-website-real-straight-man-supreme-court https://newrepublic.com/article/173987/mysterious-case-fake-...

Levitz 3y ago
>You could have said this at least for the last 70 years. It doesn't change the systemic issues that enable prejudice against minorities. This means prejudice is still more mainstream than tolerance While I find it impossible to quantify, I think we can at least assure that prejudice is frowned upon by society. Things have definitely changed in 70 years. >Recently, there was a SCOTUS ruling that allows one to refuse making websites for same sex couples. No. It allows one to refuse making a product if making that product implies speech.
- dfxm12 3y ago
  I think we can at least assure that prejudice is frowned upon by society. No, you can't. If it was, at a minimum SCOTUS wouldn't be playing games wrt signaling that it's OK do discriminate against same sex couples. Also at a minimum, we wouldn't have so much, let alone rising amounts of hate crime [0]. Unfortunately, society is pretty split on the whether prejudice is good or bad. 0 - https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-releases-supplemental-2021-hate-crime-statistics https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-releases-supplem...
  - Levitz 3y ago
    It seems to me that you are grasping at straws in order to paint a picture of oppression that doesn't match reality. I do believe that your convictions are good, but I don't think this helps them.