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10x is/was a gross concept - https://1x.engineer/ https://1x.engineer/ ftw. *Edit - to clarify I meant what it represented, of course some people nX times more

10x is/was a gross concept - https://1x.engineer/ https://1x.engineer/ ftw. *Edit - to clarify I meant what it represented, of course some people nX times more effective/efficient/higher output than others.

Sterm 3y ago
Anyone can be a 10x engineer, it's just that the majority prefer mediocrity. If you chose to be less than you can be that's on you not the people who improved themselves.
- baby_souffle 3y ago
  So what if I choose to spend a decent amount of time and resources improving myself along other non software engineering facets?
  - dustedcodes 3y ago
    All the 10x engineers I have come across in my life often had the most non engineering hobbies and after work activities going on. They are like that kid in school who never needs to study to get an A and for whom things just click immediately.
  - Sterm 3y ago
    Then you're not a 10x engineer and will be filling out your hours in SAP and getting your tickets from Jira. Personally that sounds like a new circle of hell but I've had people ask me to bring back Jira for a project I was managing so there are truly all kinds.
  - 40yearoldman 3y ago
    Then you did not chose to be a 10x engineer. The same way you probably are only mediocre in your hobbies (unless you quit your job and focused on that only) Don’t be sad. It’s okay that other people do something better than you. Be happy you play disc golf, but the 10x engineer makes more PRs than you. Which do you want more. What I hear is you envy somebody else choices, and want to vilify them because you can’t compete with them because you made different life choices. It’s like you are mad that Serena Williams did so much better than you did, but you only played tennis on the weekends with your friend.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      10xer can play disk golf too. They might sleep 8 hours and shower too.
      - 40yearoldman 3y ago
        Yah for sure. But if you are not a 10x and want to be. Then you got to prioritize what you spend your time on.
        quickthrower2 3y ago
        True. Now this is where ymmv but time away from the screen and sleep, while slowing down productivity this week is better long term. Not because it is healthy (it is) but programming in a nonlinear endeavour. During downtime you can realize the thing you are even working on is not the best thing. Or reevaluate overall strategy.
  - I_am_uncreative 3y ago
    Everything you do in life should be focused on becoming better at computers. All hail computers.
- justrealist 3y ago
  I think we can be honest that neither extreme is correct here. A lot of people choose to be mediocre developers, but likewise a lot of people try very hard to be good but simply don't have the cognitive capacity or organization to excel.
  - echelon 3y ago
    This rings so true. (Cognitive Ability) * (Engineering Ability) * (Problem Solving Ability) * (Attention to Correct Details) * (Eagerness to Labor and Work) There are real 10x engineers. And there are also 0.1x engineers. And plenty in between. And lots of things impact job performance. Burnout, life satisfaction, interesting problems, ...
  - smcleod 3y ago
    Yes! Absolutely. It is not all or nothing, it very rarely is and the internet is quick to forget that.
  - antupis 3y ago
    Also environment has lot to do, give that mystical 10x developer boring ops/feature-factory job and watch him become 0.1x developer.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      Give him rich parents and watch him start a company.
- smcleod 3y ago
  I meant more the term 10x engineer and what it's come to stand for over the years. If we're just talking about the simple root premise some people are 10x more effective / efficient or simply deliver 10x the output at the same or better quality - sure yes I absolutely know those people and while I wouldn't consider myself one of them I certainly tend to get a lot more done than the average engineer I work with. However - I don't agree with you that _anyone_ can be 10x "better" than the average person as I regularly encounter people that do not have innate logic and troubleshooting skills nor the curiosity required. I do agree that plenty of folks are content with mediocrity - most of them have ended up in "enterprise" companies.
- ramraj07 3y ago
  Your first statement is true. But the Ratatouille quote applies here; "Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere" The majority don't prefer mediocrity. That's all they really can do. We just don't know which of the majority actually has the mythical 10x ability that easily.
  - Sterm 3y ago
    No, the majority are not prepared for the absolute obliteration of their ego they will suffer to become a 10x engineer. The problem isn't one of time, ability or whatever ineffable quality, but one of character. Ironically enough I think that a boot camp with the emotional abuse the marines used to get in the 50s while going through Knuth's papers would produce a lot of 10x programmers.
    - ramraj07 3y ago
      None of the 10x engineers I know (maybe some are 5x) try that hard. They didn't need to be abused. They were just naturally good at coding. I don't believe you can abuse someone into 10x abilities.
40yearoldman 3y ago
I think we just got it wrong. In my experience, the “10x” developers are just doing their job. Maybe we should focus on the dev/10 people, they just make people who are gitting stuff done look amazing. The reality is a subset of engineers are just better, quicker and faster. They known things and can do things faster. I have worked a verity of teams. However gross it is to you the person pulling in 30k of line of code in a complex system in 3 weeks is definitely something more than the average developer. I know I know. Everybody is going now pile on with some crazy assumptions about code quality shit. Let me stop you. You were not there, the code was amazing and the code ran rock solid. Also this was not a one off. Every project I worked with this person simply was the same way. 15 min sync, 3 days later amazing features, 90%+ unit test coverage, all while doing 9-5 and cooking dinner for her family after destroying that PR button. So whatever you want to call them, they exist, and they are likely better than you in every metric you can measure. Get over it do better.
- jstanley 3y ago
  To write 30k lines of code in 3 weeks, you're averaging 2k lines/day. At 8 hour days, that's 250 lines/hour. 6 lines/minute. 1 line of code every 10 seconds, for 8 hours straight, for 3 weeks straight. It's definitely possible to type that fast, but I can't imagine what programming that way would feel like.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - kazinator 3y ago
    You don't have to type that fast if you have a multiplying gearbox: IDE autocomplete, and copy-paste.
- travisgriggs 3y ago
  This 52yearoldman agrees much with what you say. The fact is, that for many young people, programming has been “realtor boom” for many years. I’ve been actively involved with my faith’s various youth group offerings over the years, and I have watched a lot of young people I have known grow up and head down various paths, only to pivot from all kinds of career aspirations to software development. They connect with me because I’m an old timer in the same industry as them now. But very few of them “get into it” the way I have for my career. It’s a well paying job that has relatively low entry cost (either degreed or boot camped) and allows them to support their youthful adventures or aspirations to start families.
quickthrower2 3y ago
That description is not a 1x. Probably a 5x or more. (by the way 1x is the worst, 3x average and 10x best. The 10x is best vs. worst comparison)
brigadier132 3y ago
A trend I've noticed is that people that use words like "gross" tend to use arguments driven by emotion rather than logic. The "argument" in that link is a complete strawman. If they are a "10x engineer" but actually make people less productive because their code sucks they aren't actually a "10x engineer".
- smcleod 3y ago
  There's no need to be rude and make personal attacks on someone's use of language.

Sterm 3y ago

Anyone can be a 10x engineer, it's just that the majority prefer mediocrity. If you chose to be less than you can be that's on you not the people who improved themselves.

baby_souffle 3y ago
So what if I choose to spend a decent amount of time and resources improving myself along other non software engineering facets?
- dustedcodes 3y ago
  All the 10x engineers I have come across in my life often had the most non engineering hobbies and after work activities going on. They are like that kid in school who never needs to study to get an A and for whom things just click immediately.
- Sterm 3y ago
  Then you're not a 10x engineer and will be filling out your hours in SAP and getting your tickets from Jira. Personally that sounds like a new circle of hell but I've had people ask me to bring back Jira for a project I was managing so there are truly all kinds.
- 40yearoldman 3y ago
  Then you did not chose to be a 10x engineer. The same way you probably are only mediocre in your hobbies (unless you quit your job and focused on that only) Don’t be sad. It’s okay that other people do something better than you. Be happy you play disc golf, but the 10x engineer makes more PRs than you. Which do you want more. What I hear is you envy somebody else choices, and want to vilify them because you can’t compete with them because you made different life choices. It’s like you are mad that Serena Williams did so much better than you did, but you only played tennis on the weekends with your friend.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    10xer can play disk golf too. They might sleep 8 hours and shower too.
    - 40yearoldman 3y ago
      Yah for sure. But if you are not a 10x and want to be. Then you got to prioritize what you spend your time on.
      - quickthrower2 3y ago
        True. Now this is where ymmv but time away from the screen and sleep, while slowing down productivity this week is better long term. Not because it is healthy (it is) but programming in a nonlinear endeavour. During downtime you can realize the thing you are even working on is not the best thing. Or reevaluate overall strategy.
- I_am_uncreative 3y ago
  Everything you do in life should be focused on becoming better at computers. All hail computers.
justrealist 3y ago
I think we can be honest that neither extreme is correct here. A lot of people choose to be mediocre developers, but likewise a lot of people try very hard to be good but simply don't have the cognitive capacity or organization to excel.
- echelon 3y ago
  This rings so true. (Cognitive Ability) * (Engineering Ability) * (Problem Solving Ability) * (Attention to Correct Details) * (Eagerness to Labor and Work) There are real 10x engineers. And there are also 0.1x engineers. And plenty in between. And lots of things impact job performance. Burnout, life satisfaction, interesting problems, ...
- smcleod 3y ago
  Yes! Absolutely. It is not all or nothing, it very rarely is and the internet is quick to forget that.
- antupis 3y ago
  Also environment has lot to do, give that mystical 10x developer boring ops/feature-factory job and watch him become 0.1x developer.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    Give him rich parents and watch him start a company.
smcleod 3y ago
I meant more the term 10x engineer and what it's come to stand for over the years. If we're just talking about the simple root premise some people are 10x more effective / efficient or simply deliver 10x the output at the same or better quality - sure yes I absolutely know those people and while I wouldn't consider myself one of them I certainly tend to get a lot more done than the average engineer I work with. However - I don't agree with you that _anyone_ can be 10x "better" than the average person as I regularly encounter people that do not have innate logic and troubleshooting skills nor the curiosity required. I do agree that plenty of folks are content with mediocrity - most of them have ended up in "enterprise" companies.
ramraj07 3y ago
Your first statement is true. But the Ratatouille quote applies here; "Not everyone can become a great artist; but a great artist can come from anywhere" The majority don't prefer mediocrity. That's all they really can do. We just don't know which of the majority actually has the mythical 10x ability that easily.
- Sterm 3y ago
  No, the majority are not prepared for the absolute obliteration of their ego they will suffer to become a 10x engineer. The problem isn't one of time, ability or whatever ineffable quality, but one of character. Ironically enough I think that a boot camp with the emotional abuse the marines used to get in the 50s while going through Knuth's papers would produce a lot of 10x programmers.
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    None of the 10x engineers I know (maybe some are 5x) try that hard. They didn't need to be abused. They were just naturally good at coding. I don't believe you can abuse someone into 10x abilities.

40yearoldman 3y ago

I think we just got it wrong. In my experience, the “10x” developers are just doing their job. Maybe we should focus on the dev/10 people, they just make people who are gitting stuff done look amazing. The reality is a subset of engineers are just better, quicker and faster. They known things and can do things faster. I have worked a verity of teams. However gross it is to you the person pulling in 30k of line of code in a complex system in 3 weeks is definitely something more than the average developer. I know I know. Everybody is going now pile on with some crazy assumptions about code quality shit. Let me stop you. You were not there, the code was amazing and the code ran rock solid. Also this was not a one off. Every project I worked with this person simply was the same way. 15 min sync, 3 days later amazing features, 90%+ unit test coverage, all while doing 9-5 and cooking dinner for her family after destroying that PR button. So whatever you want to call them, they exist, and they are likely better than you in every metric you can measure. Get over it do better.

jstanley 3y ago
To write 30k lines of code in 3 weeks, you're averaging 2k lines/day. At 8 hour days, that's 250 lines/hour. 6 lines/minute. 1 line of code every 10 seconds, for 8 hours straight, for 3 weeks straight. It's definitely possible to type that fast, but I can't imagine what programming that way would feel like.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kazinator 3y ago
  You don't have to type that fast if you have a multiplying gearbox: IDE autocomplete, and copy-paste.
travisgriggs 3y ago
This 52yearoldman agrees much with what you say. The fact is, that for many young people, programming has been “realtor boom” for many years. I’ve been actively involved with my faith’s various youth group offerings over the years, and I have watched a lot of young people I have known grow up and head down various paths, only to pivot from all kinds of career aspirations to software development. They connect with me because I’m an old timer in the same industry as them now. But very few of them “get into it” the way I have for my career. It’s a well paying job that has relatively low entry cost (either degreed or boot camped) and allows them to support their youthful adventures or aspirations to start families.

quickthrower2 3y ago

That description is not a 1x. Probably a 5x or more. (by the way 1x is the worst, 3x average and 10x best. The 10x is best vs. worst comparison)

brigadier132 3y ago

A trend I've noticed is that people that use words like "gross" tend to use arguments driven by emotion rather than logic. The "argument" in that link is a complete strawman. If they are a "10x engineer" but actually make people less productive because their code sucks they aren't actually a "10x engineer".

smcleod 3y ago
There's no need to be rude and make personal attacks on someone's use of language.