8 ms·

New in Chrome 115

63 points by feross 3y ago

Link- 3y ago
> The Topics API enables interest-based advertising (IBA) without tracking the sites a user visits. The browser observes and records topics that appear to be of interest to the user, based on their browsing activity. This information is recorded on the user's device. > For example, the API might suggest the topic "Fiber & Textile Arts" for a user who visits the website knitting.example. Hmm.. That doesn't sound good.
- sourthyme 3y ago
  Yeah I want to know what my topics are and when they change, and if I can disable or fudge my topics.
  - hbn 3y ago
    You'd figure it would be a pretty easy thing for a fork to just... not implement? I'll assume they won't be so polite as to allow extension to disable this "feature"
    - madeofpalk 3y ago
      Just as easy for any browser to just not implement third party cookies.
  - eli 3y ago
    Not sure if it landed yet, but being able to edit/disable individual topics was an announced feature. FWIW most ad networks already let you do this. Here's google's https://myadcenter.google.com/home https://myadcenter.google.com/home
    - davidjade 3y ago
      From the FAQ: Why can't I block sensitive topics entirely? We’ll do our best not to show you ads about the topics you limit. In some cases, you might still see an ad containing images related to the topic you’ve limited. For example, you might see an airline ad featuring someone holding a glass of champagne. This isn’t an alcohol ad, even though the ad shows alcohol. In other cases, you might still see an ad about a topic you’ve limited if you search for info about one of those topics or you watch a video related to those topics. So I can make suggestions to Google for ads but not truly disable topics.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - eli 3y ago
        I mean, the point is about profiling you for ads. If you search "buy a car" and get car ads that isn't really about the personal profile Google built up about you over time.
  - eis 3y ago
    There is an internal page chrome://topics-internals where you can see the topics but I don't think you can fudge them https://developer.chrome.com/docs/privacy-sandbox/topics/#observed-topics https://developer.chrome.com/docs/privacy-sandbox/topics/#ob...
    - _boffin_ 3y ago
      There will be some sqlite database that you’ll be able to mess around with, just like the history sqlite database.
- kgwxd 3y ago
  At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they announce the "User-Agent" request header will be "Google-Agent" going forward.
- sixothree 3y ago
  Yeah. That's sounds icky and gross.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  Dunno, seems useful. Build a zero effort dmoz by visiting individual sites with a clean headless browser and then querying the topic API.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 3y ago
  I guess I don't understand how it is different or better from Google's perspective for its users. Is the main benefit you don't know the exact site you visited but the type of site and basically all the contents or "topics" of it? Not looking to flame. Genuinely looking for just the rundown explanation // privacy benefits // etc..
- GordonS 3y ago
  I actually think something like the Topics API could work - but with some pretty big changes. Firstly, it's a "hell no" from me on my browser recording what I'm doing and insinuating my interests. At the very least, I'd want to be able to disable that. Secondly, I want to be able to see the topics that are chosen. Finally, I want to be able to edit/set these topics myself.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    If you can edit/set these, what's the point in having any of this? If they want to know your interests they could just ask and accept no as a valid answer. The iOS changes proved that people do not want to be tracked, I think.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      The point would be standardisation - you set preferences once in your browser, rather than on several sites in several different ways. FWIW, I too do not want to be tracked, and so I use an ad blocker etc. I'm thinking more along the lines of improving things for those that don't mind so much - those that accept the "deal" of ads in exchange for content.
- superfrank 3y ago
  I know a lot of people don't like the Topics API and FLoC (which I believe is dead now, but was kind of the MVP for Topics) and I'm not saying it's perfect, but from everything I've read on it, it seems like a massive improvement over third party cookies. Am I wrong in thinking this way? I realize there are plenty of people out there who just don't want to be tracked at all, but I don't think that option was really ever on the table for Chrome users. To me this seems like a step in the right direction. If there's anyone who can explain the downsides of this new API and has an alternative other than "don't track me" I would honestly love to hear it. I'm sure there are some, but I'm struggling to think of them.
  - candiddevmike 3y ago
    Why have either? What _user_ wants this? I really struggle to find people that want to be tracked, even anonymously, that have no ties to said tracking companies.
    - tomComb 3y ago
      I want to use internet services that have no paywall. I want them to get paid, with a minimum of ads. And I prefer ads that might be relevant to me, and which might provide value even for small advertisers (as opposed to brand advertising). That all requires data collection and that’s ok with me as long as they handle it responsibly (oddly the ones that handle users data responsibly – never selling or leaking yet - seem to be the most hated). I have no ties to said tracking companies, or any other skin in this game.
      - candiddevmike 3y ago
        Do you think that ads will provide them with enough revenue? Based on the current status-quo, ad-supported only services seem to be waning. Businesses would much prefer paying customers vs ad-supported, I think.
      - SllX 3y ago
        If that’s a choice you get to make without that choice being forced upon me because I clicked a link, great! We’re both happy. I don’t mind a consent wall, or a paywall, but what I do mind is that the second I click a link, the page is already trying to turn my user agent against me to glean as much information about me as possible.
- 98codes 3y ago
  It's like Google is trying to give the government evidence of browser / ad vendor bundling effects
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Please elaborate? It seems a terrific idea.
- jawns 3y ago
  A few years ago, I worked for a company that helped retailers infer user intent. And you would not believe the lengths that they would go to to infer simple things like sex (for clothing sites with male and female sections). I kept saying, "Wouldn't it be great if, you know, we just asked people?" And everyone said, "Oh, no, people are never going to volunteer that. They want privacy!" So, great, now we get a Topics API to help advertisers extract this info involuntarily. But without a Shopping API or similar method of volunteering info that's actually useful and makes my browsing experience easier, I have to re-apply the same filters incessantly on every online shopping site I visit, even though I really don't care if anyone knows that I'm a Men's Large with a 36-inch waist.
  - ssss11 3y ago
    Yeah you’re right - just ask the user. They can say no, or they can tell you what you want to know. I think companies know that most ppl don’t want to hand over info. This current opaque adtech system coupled with dark pattern ‘options’ to appear like they care is insulting and arrogant.
- hiccuphippo 3y ago
  So who decides which topics exist and which topics match to which websites? Will the browser send all websites you visit to Google and get back the list of topics?
dvt 3y ago
Fenced frames seem so over-engineered. Why not just add a `fenced` attribute to a regular `iframe` which we can toggle on or off? Looking at the Chromium source, the `fenced_frame.cc` implementation is almost literally copy-pasted from `iframe` anyway.
andrewstuart 3y ago
When does webgpu come for Linux?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  As per Khronos meeting yesterday, really soon now. So are the priorities of MountainView for desktop Linux, it is literally the last platform on Chrome roadmap support for WebGPU.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
billyhoffman 3y ago
So they created a new event so people can use JS to create "reading indicators which move as you scroll." You know what else can do that? Scroll bars. In the browser. That don't disappear. Those tell you how far you are in the document as well.
- hbn 3y ago
  It's hard to rely on the scrollbar if the website either loads the article as you scroll (I think Ars Technica does this) or you know whether or not there's a comments section. Or sometimes there is a comments section but it doesn't load until you scroll it into view. I find myself frequently jumping to the bottom of the article to see if the small scrollbar is due to the article length or a comments section.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    Websites that are doing obviously wrong things shouldn't be used to justify another layer of bad features being added. There's never any justification for deferring loading of the rest of an article until you scroll. The images, maybe, but definitely not the text.
  - ComputerGuru 3y ago
    I don’t think the new scroll timeline fixes the lazy loading issue.
- eyelidlessness 3y ago
  There are already JS solutions for scroll-based behaviors and styling (the actual scroll event, IntersectionObserver which performs better because it’s non-blocking and batched). Scroll Timeline is a CSS-only solution. And it’s kind of a misnomer, it’s really a position-based styling mechanism that can be used without any scrolling at all[1]. At minimum, this API will allow existing functionality that relies on scroll position to perform better (first by integrating with the rest of the CSS-paint pipeline, next IIUC by offloading to GPU where possible), which itself is welcome. But it also unlocks a bunch of other styling possibilities that are either impossible without JS or rather brittle. 1: https://kizu.dev/position-driven-styles/ https://kizu.dev/position-driven-styles/
londons_explore 3y ago
> Fenced Frames Fenced frames seem to break the 3rd party cookie isolation that has become standard in web browsers. Sure, they put protections in place... But nothing stops the forums on shadysite.com putting a fenced frame to this34yearoldmalehasanipof1234andsessionidof7775.advertiser.com I predict that this move is worth multiple billions to Googles advertising team...
- tgv 3y ago
  That plus "topics" makes for another great day to switch to Firefox or Safari.
- akomtu 3y ago
  So it's a backdoor for advertisers. This explained why they couldn't just extend the iframe. Should we call them adframes instead?
parhamn 3y ago
Anyone know if fenced frames honor the No frame header? No reason they should now, right?
_boffin_ 3y ago
How will I be able to disable this? If it’s not possible, I won’t be upgrading.
- dphnx 3y ago
  I'm not sure. There could be a setting or maybe something in chrome://flags, but purely on principle I'm voting with my feet and switching to Firefox.
Aardwolf 3y ago
> For example you can create reading indicators which move as you scroll: You know, scroll bars used to do that. Why are they not shown, or if shown extremely thin, on mobile devices?
- bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
  In fairness, scroll bars must account for lots of non-content stuff on the page, like comments. A reading indicator can reflect where in the primary content the reader is.
  - cosmotic 3y ago
    Reading indicator can also distract and drive the reader crazy, especially when it is perpendicular to the scroll direction.
paulddraper 3y ago
> Fenced frames Okay, seems cool, but....why? > With a fenced frame, the publisher could display an ad which matches visitor interests, but the src and interest group will be known only to the advertiser in the frame. The publisher could not access this information. Ah, okay there we go.
solarkraft 3y ago
Are they adding more proprietary APIs?
fillipvt 3y ago
I find the shared storage to be naively useful to share info between sites. But... You know, that will never be possible.
LinAGKar 3y ago
These scroll-based animations are a plague. Just let scroll be scroll and show the whole image when you get to it
eimrine 3y ago
I would like to have an LTS version of browser with no experimenting options where user is acknowledged that websites more complicated than HN will not run and show "update your browser" notification instead, but at least it has to be safe from 0day exploits.
- extra88 3y ago
  Depending on your definition of "L" in "LTS," that sounds like Firefox ESR (Extended Support Release). "Extended Support Release (ESR): receives major updates on average every 42 weeks with minor updates such as crash fixes, security fixes and policy updates as needed, but at least every four weeks." https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/#product-desktop-esr https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/#product-desktop-e...
cxcorp 3y ago
I like that ScrollTimeline is coming, I hope to get rid of JS scroll listeners for good. Can't wait to use this in like 5 years when all browsers finally support it.

63 points by feross 3y ago

> The Topics API enables interest-based advertising (IBA) without tracking the sites a user visits. The browser observes and records topics that appear to be of interest to the user, based on their browsing activity. This information is recorded on the user's device. > For example, the API might suggest the topic "Fiber & Textile Arts" for a user who visits the website knitting.example. Hmm.. That doesn't sound good.

sourthyme 3y ago
Yeah I want to know what my topics are and when they change, and if I can disable or fudge my topics.
- hbn 3y ago
  You'd figure it would be a pretty easy thing for a fork to just... not implement? I'll assume they won't be so polite as to allow extension to disable this "feature"
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Just as easy for any browser to just not implement third party cookies.
- eli 3y ago
  Not sure if it landed yet, but being able to edit/disable individual topics was an announced feature. FWIW most ad networks already let you do this. Here's google's https://myadcenter.google.com/home https://myadcenter.google.com/home
  - davidjade 3y ago
    From the FAQ: Why can't I block sensitive topics entirely? We’ll do our best not to show you ads about the topics you limit. In some cases, you might still see an ad containing images related to the topic you’ve limited. For example, you might see an airline ad featuring someone holding a glass of champagne. This isn’t an alcohol ad, even though the ad shows alcohol. In other cases, you might still see an ad about a topic you’ve limited if you search for info about one of those topics or you watch a video related to those topics. So I can make suggestions to Google for ads but not truly disable topics.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - eli 3y ago
      I mean, the point is about profiling you for ads. If you search "buy a car" and get car ads that isn't really about the personal profile Google built up about you over time.
- eis 3y ago
  There is an internal page chrome://topics-internals where you can see the topics but I don't think you can fudge them https://developer.chrome.com/docs/privacy-sandbox/topics/#observed-topics https://developer.chrome.com/docs/privacy-sandbox/topics/#ob...
  - _boffin_ 3y ago
    There will be some sqlite database that you’ll be able to mess around with, just like the history sqlite database.
kgwxd 3y ago
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they announce the "User-Agent" request header will be "Google-Agent" going forward.
sixothree 3y ago
Yeah. That's sounds icky and gross.
marginalia_nu 3y ago
Dunno, seems useful. Build a zero effort dmoz by visiting individual sites with a clean headless browser and then querying the topic API.
WORMS_EAT_WORMS 3y ago
I guess I don't understand how it is different or better from Google's perspective for its users. Is the main benefit you don't know the exact site you visited but the type of site and basically all the contents or "topics" of it? Not looking to flame. Genuinely looking for just the rundown explanation // privacy benefits // etc..
GordonS 3y ago
I actually think something like the Topics API could work - but with some pretty big changes. Firstly, it's a "hell no" from me on my browser recording what I'm doing and insinuating my interests. At the very least, I'd want to be able to disable that. Secondly, I want to be able to see the topics that are chosen. Finally, I want to be able to edit/set these topics myself.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  If you can edit/set these, what's the point in having any of this? If they want to know your interests they could just ask and accept no as a valid answer. The iOS changes proved that people do not want to be tracked, I think.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    The point would be standardisation - you set preferences once in your browser, rather than on several sites in several different ways. FWIW, I too do not want to be tracked, and so I use an ad blocker etc. I'm thinking more along the lines of improving things for those that don't mind so much - those that accept the "deal" of ads in exchange for content.
superfrank 3y ago
I know a lot of people don't like the Topics API and FLoC (which I believe is dead now, but was kind of the MVP for Topics) and I'm not saying it's perfect, but from everything I've read on it, it seems like a massive improvement over third party cookies. Am I wrong in thinking this way? I realize there are plenty of people out there who just don't want to be tracked at all, but I don't think that option was really ever on the table for Chrome users. To me this seems like a step in the right direction. If there's anyone who can explain the downsides of this new API and has an alternative other than "don't track me" I would honestly love to hear it. I'm sure there are some, but I'm struggling to think of them.
- candiddevmike 3y ago
  Why have either? What _user_ wants this? I really struggle to find people that want to be tracked, even anonymously, that have no ties to said tracking companies.
  - tomComb 3y ago
    I want to use internet services that have no paywall. I want them to get paid, with a minimum of ads. And I prefer ads that might be relevant to me, and which might provide value even for small advertisers (as opposed to brand advertising). That all requires data collection and that’s ok with me as long as they handle it responsibly (oddly the ones that handle users data responsibly – never selling or leaking yet - seem to be the most hated). I have no ties to said tracking companies, or any other skin in this game.
    - candiddevmike 3y ago
      Do you think that ads will provide them with enough revenue? Based on the current status-quo, ad-supported only services seem to be waning. Businesses would much prefer paying customers vs ad-supported, I think.
    - SllX 3y ago
      If that’s a choice you get to make without that choice being forced upon me because I clicked a link, great! We’re both happy. I don’t mind a consent wall, or a paywall, but what I do mind is that the second I click a link, the page is already trying to turn my user agent against me to glean as much information about me as possible.
98codes 3y ago
It's like Google is trying to give the government evidence of browser / ad vendor bundling effects
paulddraper 3y ago
Please elaborate? It seems a terrific idea.
jawns 3y ago
A few years ago, I worked for a company that helped retailers infer user intent. And you would not believe the lengths that they would go to to infer simple things like sex (for clothing sites with male and female sections). I kept saying, "Wouldn't it be great if, you know, we just asked people?" And everyone said, "Oh, no, people are never going to volunteer that. They want privacy!" So, great, now we get a Topics API to help advertisers extract this info involuntarily. But without a Shopping API or similar method of volunteering info that's actually useful and makes my browsing experience easier, I have to re-apply the same filters incessantly on every online shopping site I visit, even though I really don't care if anyone knows that I'm a Men's Large with a 36-inch waist.
- ssss11 3y ago
  Yeah you’re right - just ask the user. They can say no, or they can tell you what you want to know. I think companies know that most ppl don’t want to hand over info. This current opaque adtech system coupled with dark pattern ‘options’ to appear like they care is insulting and arrogant.
hiccuphippo 3y ago
So who decides which topics exist and which topics match to which websites? Will the browser send all websites you visit to Google and get back the list of topics?

dvt 3y ago

Fenced frames seem so over-engineered. Why not just add a `fenced` attribute to a regular `iframe` which we can toggle on or off? Looking at the Chromium source, the `fenced_frame.cc` implementation is almost literally copy-pasted from `iframe` anyway.

andrewstuart 3y ago

When does webgpu come for Linux?

pjmlp 3y ago
As per Khronos meeting yesterday, really soon now. So are the priorities of MountainView for desktop Linux, it is literally the last platform on Chrome roadmap support for WebGPU.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

billyhoffman 3y ago

So they created a new event so people can use JS to create "reading indicators which move as you scroll." You know what else can do that? Scroll bars. In the browser. That don't disappear. Those tell you how far you are in the document as well.

hbn 3y ago
It's hard to rely on the scrollbar if the website either loads the article as you scroll (I think Ars Technica does this) or you know whether or not there's a comments section. Or sometimes there is a comments section but it doesn't load until you scroll it into view. I find myself frequently jumping to the bottom of the article to see if the small scrollbar is due to the article length or a comments section.
- wtallis 3y ago
  Websites that are doing obviously wrong things shouldn't be used to justify another layer of bad features being added. There's never any justification for deferring loading of the rest of an article until you scroll. The images, maybe, but definitely not the text.
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  I don’t think the new scroll timeline fixes the lazy loading issue.
eyelidlessness 3y ago
There are already JS solutions for scroll-based behaviors and styling (the actual scroll event, IntersectionObserver which performs better because it’s non-blocking and batched). Scroll Timeline is a CSS-only solution. And it’s kind of a misnomer, it’s really a position-based styling mechanism that can be used without any scrolling at all[1]. At minimum, this API will allow existing functionality that relies on scroll position to perform better (first by integrating with the rest of the CSS-paint pipeline, next IIUC by offloading to GPU where possible), which itself is welcome. But it also unlocks a bunch of other styling possibilities that are either impossible without JS or rather brittle. 1: https://kizu.dev/position-driven-styles/ https://kizu.dev/position-driven-styles/

londons_explore 3y ago

> Fenced Frames Fenced frames seem to break the 3rd party cookie isolation that has become standard in web browsers. Sure, they put protections in place... But nothing stops the forums on shadysite.com putting a fenced frame to this34yearoldmalehasanipof1234andsessionidof7775.advertiser.com I predict that this move is worth multiple billions to Googles advertising team...

tgv 3y ago
That plus "topics" makes for another great day to switch to Firefox or Safari.
akomtu 3y ago
So it's a backdoor for advertisers. This explained why they couldn't just extend the iframe. Should we call them adframes instead?

parhamn 3y ago

Anyone know if fenced frames honor the No frame header? No reason they should now, right?

_boffin_ 3y ago

How will I be able to disable this? If it’s not possible, I won’t be upgrading.

dphnx 3y ago
I'm not sure. There could be a setting or maybe something in chrome://flags, but purely on principle I'm voting with my feet and switching to Firefox.

Aardwolf 3y ago

> For example you can create reading indicators which move as you scroll: You know, scroll bars used to do that. Why are they not shown, or if shown extremely thin, on mobile devices?

bobbylarrybobby 3y ago
In fairness, scroll bars must account for lots of non-content stuff on the page, like comments. A reading indicator can reflect where in the primary content the reader is.
- cosmotic 3y ago
  Reading indicator can also distract and drive the reader crazy, especially when it is perpendicular to the scroll direction.

paulddraper 3y ago

> Fenced frames Okay, seems cool, but....why? > With a fenced frame, the publisher could display an ad which matches visitor interests, but the src and interest group will be known only to the advertiser in the frame. The publisher could not access this information. Ah, okay there we go.

solarkraft 3y ago

Are they adding more proprietary APIs?

fillipvt 3y ago

I find the shared storage to be naively useful to share info between sites. But... You know, that will never be possible.

LinAGKar 3y ago

These scroll-based animations are a plague. Just let scroll be scroll and show the whole image when you get to it

eimrine 3y ago

I would like to have an LTS version of browser with no experimenting options where user is acknowledged that websites more complicated than HN will not run and show "update your browser" notification instead, but at least it has to be safe from 0day exploits.

extra88 3y ago
Depending on your definition of "L" in "LTS," that sounds like Firefox ESR (Extended Support Release). "Extended Support Release (ESR): receives major updates on average every 42 weeks with minor updates such as crash fixes, security fixes and policy updates as needed, but at least every four weeks." https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/#product-desktop-esr https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all/#product-desktop-e...

cxcorp 3y ago

I like that ScrollTimeline is coming, I hope to get rid of JS scroll listeners for good. Can't wait to use this in like 5 years when all browsers finally support it.