5 ms·

There is a lot of reality in this post. Sadly, ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc.

There is a lot of reality in this post. Sadly, ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. A manager path is just a chiller life. No leetcode interviews, performance review is focused on hiring/firing/delivery rather than actual product building, maintenance etc. Managers create arbitrary processes for their team just to show to their bosses that they are doing something important. Managers also scapegoat ICs when their policies fail. It's a wild paradox. Companies want ICs, to develop and maintain but the corporate ladder is designed to favor/give power to managers. Wild!

eclectic29 3y ago
The important thing is to learn to play the same game your company plays (whether it's IC or mgmt) and start learning the mgmt ropes soon.
- sfn42 3y ago
  I just write code for the highest bidder. I'm not interested in management, I studied software development because that's what I want to do. If my company doesn't pay me competitive rates to do what I'm good at I'll go do it elsewhere. I don't see any reason to stop doing what I'm good at. I certainly don't see any reason why anyone should pay me more to do something I'm probably not good at.
jghn 3y ago
> A manager path is just a chiller life. As someone who has done both multiple times each, this statement comes off as someone who hasn't spent time in management. My stress levels are always much lower when I'm an IC. Even when I'm a high level IC. My blood pressure levels drop when I'm an IC. etc etc etc. This is not to say that everything about being a manager is harder than being an IC. Not at all. But they're just not directly comparable the way you're doing here. They require completely different skillsets, and come with different challenges. For me, it turns out that the hard parts of manager life stress me out, big time. Thus I prefer IC work.
- FlyingSnake 3y ago
  Exactly this. OP probably has not seen the grind of middle management and the stress that comes with it. They don’t call it manager-IC pendulum for nothing.
- akamia 3y ago
  I'm in the process of transitioning back to an IC role from a management position and that was one of the biggest factors. As a manager, the level of stress I felt just became unbearable. I'm wrapping up my management responsibilities right now but just knowing that I'll be back to IC work soon and won't have that management stress has had a huge positive impact on my daily life.
  - mattchamb 3y ago
    I am 2 weeks back as an IC after 3 years of management, so I went through the same thing. Take it slowly, youll have some management instincts that are hard to kick. I am really enjoying logging off and being uncontactable at the end of the day.
    - akamia 3y ago
      That's super helpful to hear. I'm also making the move after 3 years in management. Being able to be done at the end of the day is something I'm really looking forward to but it's going to take some time to get back into that mindset. As a manager, I felt like I was always on.
- treis 3y ago
  I think this is just differences in what people are naturally good at. Those naturally better at coding think IC is easier. Those naturally better at politics think being a manager is easier. IMHO manager has a lower minimum level of effort required. If things are running smoothly it's not a lot of hassle or time. The catch is that, at least at the EM & Director level, you have little control over whether or not things run smoothly. And if things aren't running smoothly you catch a lot of crap.
- 3y ago
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
Who defines the corporate ladder and decides who moves up it? Managers. Obviously it's going to be designed in the way that works best for them.
- twelve40 3y ago
  This and the parent thread sound kind of simplistic. In any non-trivial-size company, there are many managers, and the space on top is always limited. So lower and mid-levels have to compete with each other for that limited space, they can always be undercut, left behind over an outside hire, end up on a crappy project by bad luck, end up with a bad boss or the opposite, a team of incompetent ICs who fail to deliver while there is only so much a manager can do. Always have to beg for adequate resources and overall be at the mercy of a large number of random people. Saying that it's disneyland designed for easy promotions doesn't... really sound correct?
claudiulodro 3y ago
Let's switch industries for a more objective perspective: Does a general contractor have a chiller life than a framer? In some ways, sure, they don't have to climb ladders hauling 2x6s in the rain, however I don't think the framer would be more relaxed if they were dealing with permitting offices, sourcing reliable subcontractors, estimating and collecting payments from clients, etc. rather than framing. They're both necessary roles for large-scale projects.
vkou 3y ago
> ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. > A manager path is just a chiller life. Not quite correct. Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. When your immediate manager is at that point, they will absolutely twist your thumbs off, rather than have your failures be reflected on him. They aren't interested in your excuses, because their boss isn't interested in theirs. And if you aren't high up in management seniority, you still be standing in line to get a bucket of shit dumped on you (courtesy of the management fight I've described above), but it's also your responsibility to shield your team from it. How you do it is up to you, have fun. :) ... And once you've cleaned yourself and your team off, and think 'Gosh, that was bad, but hey, at least I survived getting through that messy place in the line', you'll discover that the line is actually circular.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  > Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. Guess whose fault it becomes once the line manager is being blamed from above.
  - vkou 3y ago
    He can blame you all he wants, but firing you is unlikely to ship whatever he wants faster.
    - nine_zeros 3y ago
      I still get fired, despite having done nothing wrong. The company doesn't want engineers fired for BS reasons. Only the manager wants it. Management games are detrimental to innovation.

eclectic29 3y ago

The important thing is to learn to play the same game your company plays (whether it's IC or mgmt) and start learning the mgmt ropes soon.

sfn42 3y ago
I just write code for the highest bidder. I'm not interested in management, I studied software development because that's what I want to do. If my company doesn't pay me competitive rates to do what I'm good at I'll go do it elsewhere. I don't see any reason to stop doing what I'm good at. I certainly don't see any reason why anyone should pay me more to do something I'm probably not good at.

jghn 3y ago

> A manager path is just a chiller life. As someone who has done both multiple times each, this statement comes off as someone who hasn't spent time in management. My stress levels are always much lower when I'm an IC. Even when I'm a high level IC. My blood pressure levels drop when I'm an IC. etc etc etc. This is not to say that everything about being a manager is harder than being an IC. Not at all. But they're just not directly comparable the way you're doing here. They require completely different skillsets, and come with different challenges. For me, it turns out that the hard parts of manager life stress me out, big time. Thus I prefer IC work.

FlyingSnake 3y ago
Exactly this. OP probably has not seen the grind of middle management and the stress that comes with it. They don’t call it manager-IC pendulum for nothing.
akamia 3y ago
I'm in the process of transitioning back to an IC role from a management position and that was one of the biggest factors. As a manager, the level of stress I felt just became unbearable. I'm wrapping up my management responsibilities right now but just knowing that I'll be back to IC work soon and won't have that management stress has had a huge positive impact on my daily life.
- mattchamb 3y ago
  I am 2 weeks back as an IC after 3 years of management, so I went through the same thing. Take it slowly, youll have some management instincts that are hard to kick. I am really enjoying logging off and being uncontactable at the end of the day.
  - akamia 3y ago
    That's super helpful to hear. I'm also making the move after 3 years in management. Being able to be done at the end of the day is something I'm really looking forward to but it's going to take some time to get back into that mindset. As a manager, I felt like I was always on.
treis 3y ago
I think this is just differences in what people are naturally good at. Those naturally better at coding think IC is easier. Those naturally better at politics think being a manager is easier. IMHO manager has a lower minimum level of effort required. If things are running smoothly it's not a lot of hassle or time. The catch is that, at least at the EM & Director level, you have little control over whether or not things run smoothly. And if things aren't running smoothly you catch a lot of crap.
3y ago

TheCoelacanth 3y ago

Who defines the corporate ladder and decides who moves up it? Managers. Obviously it's going to be designed in the way that works best for them.

twelve40 3y ago
This and the parent thread sound kind of simplistic. In any non-trivial-size company, there are many managers, and the space on top is always limited. So lower and mid-levels have to compete with each other for that limited space, they can always be undercut, left behind over an outside hire, end up on a crappy project by bad luck, end up with a bad boss or the opposite, a team of incompetent ICs who fail to deliver while there is only so much a manager can do. Always have to beg for adequate resources and overall be at the mercy of a large number of random people. Saying that it's disneyland designed for easy promotions doesn't... really sound correct?

claudiulodro 3y ago

Let's switch industries for a more objective perspective: Does a general contractor have a chiller life than a framer? In some ways, sure, they don't have to climb ladders hauling 2x6s in the rain, however I don't think the framer would be more relaxed if they were dealing with permitting offices, sourcing reliable subcontractors, estimating and collecting payments from clients, etc. rather than framing. They're both necessary roles for large-scale projects.

vkou 3y ago

> ICs have far too much scrutiny, starting from aggressive interviews, to onboarding, to performance reviews etc. > A manager path is just a chiller life. Not quite correct. Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. When your immediate manager is at that point, they will absolutely twist your thumbs off, rather than have your failures be reflected on him. They aren't interested in your excuses, because their boss isn't interested in theirs. And if you aren't high up in management seniority, you still be standing in line to get a bucket of shit dumped on you (courtesy of the management fight I've described above), but it's also your responsibility to shield your team from it. How you do it is up to you, have fun. :) ... And once you've cleaned yourself and your team off, and think 'Gosh, that was bad, but hey, at least I survived getting through that messy place in the line', you'll discover that the line is actually circular.

nine_zeros 3y ago
> Once you get to a point in management seniority, everything that goes wrong is your fault. Guess whose fault it becomes once the line manager is being blamed from above.
- vkou 3y ago
  He can blame you all he wants, but firing you is unlikely to ship whatever he wants faster.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    I still get fired, despite having done nothing wrong. The company doesn't want engineers fired for BS reasons. Only the manager wants it. Management games are detrimental to innovation.