8 ms·

Reminds me of a couple of married friends of mine. The wife played a classical musical instrument (e.g., not an electric guitar) and had her sights set on being

by ipsi 3y ago

Reminds me of a couple of married friends of mine. The wife played a classical musical instrument (e.g., not an electric guitar) and had her sights set on being a professional. While working towards that she did a lot of teaching/practising/etc, and her students would often say something along the lines of "I'm so envious of all this time you have to practice music! How are you able to do it?!" and her reply was always a bit of a let-down/reality check for them: "my husband works in tech." Not quite independently wealthy, but I imagine there's a fair few artists out there in a similar position.

gonehome 3y ago
Also pretty common with authors iirc - a spouse with an income that provides stability. That said, also easy for people to use this as an excuse.
- xen2xen1 3y ago
  The plot of Breaking Bad?
- softfalcon 3y ago
  Yup, my brother is literally doing this. He stays at home, plays video games, writes his book. His wife literally works a coal mine to fund his career.
Mistletoe 3y ago
One can think of music teachers as a zero interest rate phenomenon then by proxy, so maybe it wasn’t all bad (but most of it was).
- ketzo 3y ago
  Listen, can we all agree to stop calling any expenditure of money without a direct expectation of return a "zero interest rate phenomenon"? "Starving artists" have existed for millenia. The arts patronage system began either or thousands of years ago, depending on who you ask. People have paid lots of money for gold jewelry basically since we figured out how to pull it out of the ground. I saw someone call dog-walkers a ZIRP recently. No! It's just a luxury! There's a difference!
  - Mistletoe 3y ago
    But dog walking businesses weren’t getting $1.35 billion dollar valuations before the interest rates were zero for so many years in an unprecedented way. https://www.geekwire.com/2021/pet-sitting-marketplace-rover-grabs-bone-valued-1-3-billion-latest-spac-deal/ https://www.geekwire.com/2021/pet-sitting-marketplace-rover-... Hit max- https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate
    - ketzo 3y ago
      ....okay, sure, granted. But the business model of "I walk other people's dogs when they don't have time to" is not a ZIRP. It's just not. People might have hired more dogwalkers! Because ZIR might have created more affluent individuals! But that's a couple logical jumps from "dogwalking is a ZIRP"
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
      Yeah, but that could just be SoftBank and its desire to light money on fire. I heard a podcast about a different fund who wanted to invest in a dog walking business, but SoftBank offered a huge multiple on what this group thought the company was worth.
jiggywiggy 3y ago
I know a bunch of classical musicians, and while they study and work hard they all have steady gigs for one or more ensembles & orchestra's. From the outside it feels somewhat more doable to be a pro , then a band or solo-artist, since there are quite a few orchestra's around that hire people on a stable basis. Spots are limited, but it's not super hard.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  > Spots are limited, but it's not super hard. This depends on the instrument and your location. If you play a popular instrument (say the violin) in a metro area with just one orchestra (some have zero!) then you ain't getting on that orchestra any way short of nepotism. If you live within commuting distance of multiple orchestras, there are more spots, but you still aren't going to be playing violin in the orchestra, and it's even possible that nepotism won't help you.
  - abeppu 3y ago
    This is definitely not my area, but in other contexts I have heard of blind auditions as being a common practice in orchestras (i.e. people auditioning literally are hidden from view while they play and evaluations are then based only on hearing one play) which improved gender diversity in hiring, but not really racial diversity. How does nepotism work in this system?
    - underlipton 3y ago
      How do you find out about the audition? Also (though perhaps closer to a privilege issue than a nepotism issue): How did you find the teacher who helped you get ready for the audition? How did you "pay" for the practice time to prepare for the audition?
      - patmorgan23 3y ago
        Many orchestras will hold open auditions. They'd post them on their website and probably a few regional music target outlets/websites. Also networking, if you do gigs in the same region the orchestra is located you're bound to bump into a few of the members. You can also just email the orchestra and ask when they hold auditions.
lynx23 3y ago
There are exceptions to every rule of course, and the situaton has changed significantly with all-software productions, but... If you dig deeper into many electronic music producers bio, you realize they were sort of rich-kids. First and foremost, hardware costs real money. And this is gambling money, since you typically dont know what is going to come out of that project. And secondly, you need sare time on your hand, to be able to playfully explore the space... Both things are typically hard to find with the working class.
- softfalcon 3y ago
  I know some successful musicians, DJ's, photographers, and videographers. One thing they all have in common? Mommy and Daddy were loaded.
  - bigie35 3y ago
    Steve Aoki comes to mind as an example. His family founded the food chain Benihana.
digging 3y ago
my partner is a working artist and, though successful, would not be able to live in our city comfortably if they weren't with me (or someone else with similar income). it's depressing, although I'm thrilled to help. it means I can't easily quit if I want to pursue another interest. it means we both have incentive to stay together even if something goes wrong romantically. neither of these points are a problem for us right now, but I am sure many artists do struggle with them.
- austhrow743 3y ago
  How does that create incentive for you to stay with them if something goes wrong romantically?
  - jdmn73 3y ago
    Because there's a whole lot of room in between wanting to be in a romantic relationship with someone and wanting to see them homeless.
softfalcon 3y ago
Yeah, similar situation with: - My brother who is a writer while his wife works at an industrial job that pays exceedingly well - My friend who is an artist, whose husband owns an engineering firm with big medical device contracts - My other friend who is a nature photographer, whose husband works in tech - Yet another friend who is a musician, whose wife works in tech - Another friend who runs a dog shelter, whose husband is a high paid engineer - My other friend who is a writer, whose girlfriend is a real estate investment manager at a large bank - My friend who is a social worker helping at-risk youth, whose husband is an oil and gas executive - And yet another friend who makes jewelry and sews bags, whose wife owns an investment management firm - Finally, a friend who volunteers to catalogue deer populations for conservation, whose boyfriend just happens to be a big wig executive for the city I could go on, I see this phenomenon everywhere. There are no free lunches in life, someone is always footing the bill... just follow the money.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  "What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?" "Homeless."
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    I had to constantly remind myself, when my college friends were going off to do startups that they wouldn't be sleeping under a bridge if they failed. Even something as simple as a supportive family is a huge leg up compared to those who don't have it.
    - chmod600 3y ago
      “Even something as simple as a supportive family“ That’s a strange wording, isn’t a supportive family widely known to be an absolutely huge benefit?
      - jkingsman 3y ago
        I think the implication is that, as opposed to starting a romantic relationship with someone who can support you or a side hustle or etc., having a supportive family is much more passive (and somewhat a roll of the dice, but generally speaking if you were lucky/privileged enough to be born into a family who can emotionally and/or financially support you, there probably isn't much labor/effort you had to put into to make it that way). It's for sure a huge benefit; I think their point is that it's a huge benefit that doesn't require effort (just chance, or maintenance of good communication/relationship).
wealthdistrizzz 3y ago
[dead]
motohagiography 3y ago
Athletes as well. I don't see how a "husband works in tech" answer is a letdown though, as really, what's a marriage for except creating the circumstances from which to grow. Over the decades my tech jobs have supported grad students, authors, craftswomen, actresses, athletes, among others and it was a pleasure watching them level up and grow. If I were ever to be married, earning enough to support arts or athletic pursuits would be pretty ideal. They're how you make kids brilliant and not be boring.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  > what's a marriage for except creating the circumstances from which to grow This is absolutely not in line with how most people I interact with seem to view marriage nowadays, especially not my fellow university students back when I attended. From my perspective I think younger people mostly seem to view marriage as restricting, or backward and outdated, not an opportunity for something better. I especially think younger people don't like the idea that in order to have freedom to pursue the things you love, you might need to marry someone who supports you financially. Otherwise you will be too busy financially supporting yourself to have that same freedom.
  - viscanti 3y ago
    > younger people don't like the idea that in order to have freedom to pursue the things you love, you might need to marry someone who supports you financially. How many people have ever liked it? Hasn't it been one of the few avenues available for lots of people to pursue things they couldn't without financial help? What's a viable alternative?
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      I don't know about if people "liked" marrying in order to have financial support. My point was just that marrying someone to financially support you used to be culturally accepted, maybe even expected, and now it is less so. Especially since most marriages can't afford to keep the household on a single income anymore anyways.
klardotsh 3y ago
Similar/tangent, even working in tech, I sometimes mention to folks how completely out of touch and out of reach the real estate market in the PNW is. "How?", they ask, forgetting that a single person living alone pays the full share of rent, and then only has a single income to save towards real estate. Nearly 100% of the people I know under age 35 who own their dwelling are couples, with both employed (and an overwhelming majority of those couples have at least one STEM income in that "portfolio").

by ipsi 3y ago

gonehome 3y ago

Also pretty common with authors iirc - a spouse with an income that provides stability. That said, also easy for people to use this as an excuse.

xen2xen1 3y ago
The plot of Breaking Bad?
softfalcon 3y ago
Yup, my brother is literally doing this. He stays at home, plays video games, writes his book. His wife literally works a coal mine to fund his career.

Mistletoe 3y ago

One can think of music teachers as a zero interest rate phenomenon then by proxy, so maybe it wasn’t all bad (but most of it was).

ketzo 3y ago
Listen, can we all agree to stop calling any expenditure of money without a direct expectation of return a "zero interest rate phenomenon"? "Starving artists" have existed for millenia. The arts patronage system began either or thousands of years ago, depending on who you ask. People have paid lots of money for gold jewelry basically since we figured out how to pull it out of the ground. I saw someone call dog-walkers a ZIRP recently. No! It's just a luxury! There's a difference!
- Mistletoe 3y ago
  But dog walking businesses weren’t getting $1.35 billion dollar valuations before the interest rates were zero for so many years in an unprecedented way. https://www.geekwire.com/2021/pet-sitting-marketplace-rover-grabs-bone-valued-1-3-billion-latest-spac-deal/ https://www.geekwire.com/2021/pet-sitting-marketplace-rover-... Hit max- https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate
  - ketzo 3y ago
    ....okay, sure, granted. But the business model of "I walk other people's dogs when they don't have time to" is not a ZIRP. It's just not. People might have hired more dogwalkers! Because ZIR might have created more affluent individuals! But that's a couple logical jumps from "dogwalking is a ZIRP"
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    Yeah, but that could just be SoftBank and its desire to light money on fire. I heard a podcast about a different fund who wanted to invest in a dog walking business, but SoftBank offered a huge multiple on what this group thought the company was worth.

jiggywiggy 3y ago

I know a bunch of classical musicians, and while they study and work hard they all have steady gigs for one or more ensembles & orchestra's. From the outside it feels somewhat more doable to be a pro , then a band or solo-artist, since there are quite a few orchestra's around that hire people on a stable basis. Spots are limited, but it's not super hard.

aidenn0 3y ago
> Spots are limited, but it's not super hard. This depends on the instrument and your location. If you play a popular instrument (say the violin) in a metro area with just one orchestra (some have zero!) then you ain't getting on that orchestra any way short of nepotism. If you live within commuting distance of multiple orchestras, there are more spots, but you still aren't going to be playing violin in the orchestra, and it's even possible that nepotism won't help you.
- abeppu 3y ago
  This is definitely not my area, but in other contexts I have heard of blind auditions as being a common practice in orchestras (i.e. people auditioning literally are hidden from view while they play and evaluations are then based only on hearing one play) which improved gender diversity in hiring, but not really racial diversity. How does nepotism work in this system?
  - underlipton 3y ago
    How do you find out about the audition? Also (though perhaps closer to a privilege issue than a nepotism issue): How did you find the teacher who helped you get ready for the audition? How did you "pay" for the practice time to prepare for the audition?
    - patmorgan23 3y ago
      Many orchestras will hold open auditions. They'd post them on their website and probably a few regional music target outlets/websites. Also networking, if you do gigs in the same region the orchestra is located you're bound to bump into a few of the members. You can also just email the orchestra and ask when they hold auditions.

lynx23 3y ago

There are exceptions to every rule of course, and the situaton has changed significantly with all-software productions, but... If you dig deeper into many electronic music producers bio, you realize they were sort of rich-kids. First and foremost, hardware costs real money. And this is gambling money, since you typically dont know what is going to come out of that project. And secondly, you need sare time on your hand, to be able to playfully explore the space... Both things are typically hard to find with the working class.

softfalcon 3y ago
I know some successful musicians, DJ's, photographers, and videographers. One thing they all have in common? Mommy and Daddy were loaded.
- bigie35 3y ago
  Steve Aoki comes to mind as an example. His family founded the food chain Benihana.

digging 3y ago

my partner is a working artist and, though successful, would not be able to live in our city comfortably if they weren't with me (or someone else with similar income). it's depressing, although I'm thrilled to help. it means I can't easily quit if I want to pursue another interest. it means we both have incentive to stay together even if something goes wrong romantically. neither of these points are a problem for us right now, but I am sure many artists do struggle with them.

austhrow743 3y ago
How does that create incentive for you to stay with them if something goes wrong romantically?
- jdmn73 3y ago
  Because there's a whole lot of room in between wanting to be in a romantic relationship with someone and wanting to see them homeless.

softfalcon 3y ago

Yeah, similar situation with: - My brother who is a writer while his wife works at an industrial job that pays exceedingly well - My friend who is an artist, whose husband owns an engineering firm with big medical device contracts - My other friend who is a nature photographer, whose husband works in tech - Yet another friend who is a musician, whose wife works in tech - Another friend who runs a dog shelter, whose husband is a high paid engineer - My other friend who is a writer, whose girlfriend is a real estate investment manager at a large bank - My friend who is a social worker helping at-risk youth, whose husband is an oil and gas executive - And yet another friend who makes jewelry and sews bags, whose wife owns an investment management firm - Finally, a friend who volunteers to catalogue deer populations for conservation, whose boyfriend just happens to be a big wig executive for the city I could go on, I see this phenomenon everywhere. There are no free lunches in life, someone is always footing the bill... just follow the money.

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
"What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?" "Homeless."
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  I had to constantly remind myself, when my college friends were going off to do startups that they wouldn't be sleeping under a bridge if they failed. Even something as simple as a supportive family is a huge leg up compared to those who don't have it.
  - chmod600 3y ago
    “Even something as simple as a supportive family“ That’s a strange wording, isn’t a supportive family widely known to be an absolutely huge benefit?
    - jkingsman 3y ago
      I think the implication is that, as opposed to starting a romantic relationship with someone who can support you or a side hustle or etc., having a supportive family is much more passive (and somewhat a roll of the dice, but generally speaking if you were lucky/privileged enough to be born into a family who can emotionally and/or financially support you, there probably isn't much labor/effort you had to put into to make it that way). It's for sure a huge benefit; I think their point is that it's a huge benefit that doesn't require effort (just chance, or maintenance of good communication/relationship).

wealthdistrizzz 3y ago

[dead]

motohagiography 3y ago

Athletes as well. I don't see how a "husband works in tech" answer is a letdown though, as really, what's a marriage for except creating the circumstances from which to grow. Over the decades my tech jobs have supported grad students, authors, craftswomen, actresses, athletes, among others and it was a pleasure watching them level up and grow. If I were ever to be married, earning enough to support arts or athletic pursuits would be pretty ideal. They're how you make kids brilliant and not be boring.

bluefirebrand 3y ago
> what's a marriage for except creating the circumstances from which to grow This is absolutely not in line with how most people I interact with seem to view marriage nowadays, especially not my fellow university students back when I attended. From my perspective I think younger people mostly seem to view marriage as restricting, or backward and outdated, not an opportunity for something better. I especially think younger people don't like the idea that in order to have freedom to pursue the things you love, you might need to marry someone who supports you financially. Otherwise you will be too busy financially supporting yourself to have that same freedom.
- viscanti 3y ago
  > younger people don't like the idea that in order to have freedom to pursue the things you love, you might need to marry someone who supports you financially. How many people have ever liked it? Hasn't it been one of the few avenues available for lots of people to pursue things they couldn't without financial help? What's a viable alternative?
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    I don't know about if people "liked" marrying in order to have financial support. My point was just that marrying someone to financially support you used to be culturally accepted, maybe even expected, and now it is less so. Especially since most marriages can't afford to keep the household on a single income anymore anyways.

klardotsh 3y ago

Similar/tangent, even working in tech, I sometimes mention to folks how completely out of touch and out of reach the real estate market in the PNW is. "How?", they ask, forgetting that a single person living alone pays the full share of rent, and then only has a single income to save towards real estate. Nearly 100% of the people I know under age 35 who own their dwelling are couples, with both employed (and an overwhelming majority of those couples have at least one STEM income in that "portfolio").