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> Sure Apple sells the Mac Mini. But the entire Mac line is only 10% of Apple’s revenue and most of that is laptops The 10% figure is spot-on and that really t

> Sure Apple sells the Mac Mini. But the entire Mac line is only 10% of Apple’s revenue and most of that is laptops The 10% figure is spot-on and that really threw me - I was expecting something like 25-30%: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/FY22_Q4_Consolidated_Financial_Statements.pdf https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/FY22_Q4_Consolidated_Fin... It’s unnerving that Apple is effectively dependent on a single product line to subsidise everything: Apple Silicon must have cost tens (hundreds?) of billions of dollars to get to where the M2 chip is today (including acquisitions) - but it only exists today all because of the A-series SoC in the iPhone: without the iPhone Apple would likely be still dependent on Intel for Mac chips. The iPhone isn’t going away any time soon - but when/if that day comes, Apple is going to be faced with having to maintain all those iPhone-originated projects with no easy way to walk them down (e.g. switching from Apple Silicon back to Intel - or stock ARM - is going to damage Apple’s credibility for years). I’m concerned Apple might be painting themselves into a corner by continuing to shed businesses it isn’t interested in that might be a useful lifeline in a post-iPhone world, like their XServe hardware - or even their MacPro workstations: Apple has seemingly intentionally priced themselves out of reach of smaller and indie creative-types - while at the high-end (movies, etc) the great migration from FCP-on-Mac to Avid-on-Windows took place almost a decade ago - and the lack of PCI-Ex GPUs in the 2023 M2 MacPro is further evidence, to me at-least, that Apple is increasingly uninterested in the Workstation market - which leaves them with less access to trend-setting professionals - which erodes their ability to compete, long-term, imo. Intel killing-off the NUC is unfortunate, but ultimately is not Intel’s core business (chipmaking) which remains their priority. I don’t blame Intel for doing that; but it would be the same thing if Apple killed-off their Mac Studio line (they even look-alike): it isn’t their (current) core-business - but as Apple sheds - or neglects - its old core-businesses (i.e. computers) it leaves them with fewer contingency options.

scarface_74 3y ago
> It’s unnerving that Apple is effectively dependent on a single product line to subsidise everything From 1977 - 1988 Apple was totally dependent on the Apple //e (the Mac was losing money) From 1992-2003 Apple was totally dependent on the Mac (the iPod was just a meaningful contributor to revenue when iTunes came to Windows.) When Apple depended on the Mac for revenue, they consistently failed to keep up with Intel - first with the 68K and then with the Mac. If the iPhone fails, the Mac no matter what would never keep up.
whynotminot 3y ago
> Apple has seemingly intentionally priced themselves out of reach of smaller and indie creative-types I don't think this take makes any sense. Sure, you can spec out an insanely expensive Mac today. That's always been the case. But with Apple Silicon, there's actually never been a better price to performance ratio at the bottom end of their lineup, perhaps in Apple's entire history. An entry-level Mac Mini or MacBook Air can give an indie creator tremendous power and performance per dollar. I think you're right that Apple has lost a lot of creative professionals over the years who migrated to Windows, and the lack of plug and play GPUs may well keep some of those professionals away. But I think it's actually precisely the indies that represent Apple's best chance at making inroads into the space again over the long run. If you're a kid trying to bootstrap a new YouTube channel or experimenting with filmography and building a portfolio, it's hard to recommend a better combo than FCP and a Mac Mini for performance and cost.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > But with Apple Silicon, there's actually never been a better price to performance ratio at the bottom end of their lineup, perhaps in Apple's entire history. An entry-level Mac Mini or MacBook Air can give an indie creator tremendous power and performance per dollar. The frustrating thing is just how quickly value decays with Apple's pricing strategy. When it comes to the Mac Mini/Studio, outside of some extremely niche applications, it really only makes sense to get base models. It is infuriating how much Apple charges for additional ram.
  - whynotminot 3y ago
    Yeah, I can agree with you that Apple's general pricing ladder is annoying. But I'll also say as a software engineer, the MacBook Pro 16 with an M1 Max is the best tool I've ever used for my work. I dock into a thunderbolt setup with a couple high resolution monitors. I have docker running. Often multiple IDE instances with large codebases. Multiple Chrome windows with dozens if not hundreds of tabs. Zoom calls running screen shares. The machine barely gets warm and I never hear the fans. My prior work laptops would have been howling and begging for mercy. I often forget that I leave applications running, only to remember later "maybe you should kill those processes". With past work machines, I'd routinely have to hunt for processes to kill to claw back CPU cycles and quiet down the spinning fans. And then I unplug it from the dock and do all of this at the airport for a few hours. Still silent, cool, and performant. I've never seen anything like it before. And while it's not "thin and light" it's also not the heaviest workstation quality laptop I've ever used. Not sure how this fits into your personal value propositions, but I can tell you I'd pay far more than I did for this quality of a machine.
giantrobot 3y ago
> which leaves them with less access to trend-setting professionals - which erodes their ability to compete, long-term, imo Those people all have MacBook Pros or Mac Studios. The Mac Pro has been a niche of a niche item for a decade.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And if Apple “fails” with “trendsetting professionals” which is only a tiny market and the Mac itself is only 10% of Apple’s revenue, does it matter? The entire global PC market is around 286 million: https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-01-11-gartner-says-worldwide-pc-shipments-declined-28-percent-in-fourth-quarter-of-2022-and-16-percent-for-the-year#:~:text=For%20the%20year%2C%20PC%20shipments,a%2016.2%25%20decrease%20from%202021 https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-01-1.... Compared to 1.5 billion+ phones https://www.sellcell.com/how-many-mobile-phones-are-sold-each-year/ https://www.sellcell.com/how-many-mobile-phones-are-sold-eac... “Trendsetting professionals who buy PCs” don’t even move the needle.
  - giantrobot 3y ago
    > And if Apple “fails” with “trendsetting professionals” which is only a tiny market and the Mac itself is only 10% of Apple’s revenue, does it matter? Only in that Apple would need a platform to develop for iOS. But at that future Mac failure point that dev platform would just be iPadOS or something. I would be disappointed if Macs went away, Windows is garbage and no Linux desktop experience is as good (for me) as the Mac's but Apple wouldn't really notice in terms of revenue. However I don't think there's any foreseeable reason for the Mac to go away. Most of the Apple's development effort is shared between macOS and iOS with even more iOS things being ported to the Mac side. Even hardware development is shared between the platforms and will be shared with the Vision platform. Even with 10% of the company's revenues the Mac is nowhere near 10% of Apple's OpEx so it definitely makes more money than it costs to develop and maintain.
    - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
      > Windows is garbage I accept that as an ex-MSFTie I am biased - but I'm honestly curious what Windows did to you that put you off it. Can you share? (Though I agree Windows 11 is ... not good, so I'm sticking with Windows 10 - though I am starting to experiment with a Slackware desktop too).
tcmart14 3y ago
The one major flaw I would like to point out here. Don't look at development on apple silicon as only development on Apple silicon. They base the architecture off their A-series processors in their phones, but scaled up. So all the research money for Apple Silicon is also research money for their in house A-series processors for their phones.
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  Yes, that’s my very point.

scarface_74 3y ago

> It’s unnerving that Apple is effectively dependent on a single product line to subsidise everything From 1977 - 1988 Apple was totally dependent on the Apple //e (the Mac was losing money) From 1992-2003 Apple was totally dependent on the Mac (the iPod was just a meaningful contributor to revenue when iTunes came to Windows.) When Apple depended on the Mac for revenue, they consistently failed to keep up with Intel - first with the 68K and then with the Mac. If the iPhone fails, the Mac no matter what would never keep up.

whynotminot 3y ago

> Apple has seemingly intentionally priced themselves out of reach of smaller and indie creative-types I don't think this take makes any sense. Sure, you can spec out an insanely expensive Mac today. That's always been the case. But with Apple Silicon, there's actually never been a better price to performance ratio at the bottom end of their lineup, perhaps in Apple's entire history. An entry-level Mac Mini or MacBook Air can give an indie creator tremendous power and performance per dollar. I think you're right that Apple has lost a lot of creative professionals over the years who migrated to Windows, and the lack of plug and play GPUs may well keep some of those professionals away. But I think it's actually precisely the indies that represent Apple's best chance at making inroads into the space again over the long run. If you're a kid trying to bootstrap a new YouTube channel or experimenting with filmography and building a portfolio, it's hard to recommend a better combo than FCP and a Mac Mini for performance and cost.

nordsieck 3y ago
> But with Apple Silicon, there's actually never been a better price to performance ratio at the bottom end of their lineup, perhaps in Apple's entire history. An entry-level Mac Mini or MacBook Air can give an indie creator tremendous power and performance per dollar. The frustrating thing is just how quickly value decays with Apple's pricing strategy. When it comes to the Mac Mini/Studio, outside of some extremely niche applications, it really only makes sense to get base models. It is infuriating how much Apple charges for additional ram.
- whynotminot 3y ago
  Yeah, I can agree with you that Apple's general pricing ladder is annoying. But I'll also say as a software engineer, the MacBook Pro 16 with an M1 Max is the best tool I've ever used for my work. I dock into a thunderbolt setup with a couple high resolution monitors. I have docker running. Often multiple IDE instances with large codebases. Multiple Chrome windows with dozens if not hundreds of tabs. Zoom calls running screen shares. The machine barely gets warm and I never hear the fans. My prior work laptops would have been howling and begging for mercy. I often forget that I leave applications running, only to remember later "maybe you should kill those processes". With past work machines, I'd routinely have to hunt for processes to kill to claw back CPU cycles and quiet down the spinning fans. And then I unplug it from the dock and do all of this at the airport for a few hours. Still silent, cool, and performant. I've never seen anything like it before. And while it's not "thin and light" it's also not the heaviest workstation quality laptop I've ever used. Not sure how this fits into your personal value propositions, but I can tell you I'd pay far more than I did for this quality of a machine.

giantrobot 3y ago

> which leaves them with less access to trend-setting professionals - which erodes their ability to compete, long-term, imo Those people all have MacBook Pros or Mac Studios. The Mac Pro has been a niche of a niche item for a decade.

scarface_74 3y ago
And if Apple “fails” with “trendsetting professionals” which is only a tiny market and the Mac itself is only 10% of Apple’s revenue, does it matter? The entire global PC market is around 286 million: https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-01-11-gartner-says-worldwide-pc-shipments-declined-28-percent-in-fourth-quarter-of-2022-and-16-percent-for-the-year#:~:text=For%20the%20year%2C%20PC%20shipments,a%2016.2%25%20decrease%20from%202021 https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-01-1.... Compared to 1.5 billion+ phones https://www.sellcell.com/how-many-mobile-phones-are-sold-each-year/ https://www.sellcell.com/how-many-mobile-phones-are-sold-eac... “Trendsetting professionals who buy PCs” don’t even move the needle.
- giantrobot 3y ago
  > And if Apple “fails” with “trendsetting professionals” which is only a tiny market and the Mac itself is only 10% of Apple’s revenue, does it matter? Only in that Apple would need a platform to develop for iOS. But at that future Mac failure point that dev platform would just be iPadOS or something. I would be disappointed if Macs went away, Windows is garbage and no Linux desktop experience is as good (for me) as the Mac's but Apple wouldn't really notice in terms of revenue. However I don't think there's any foreseeable reason for the Mac to go away. Most of the Apple's development effort is shared between macOS and iOS with even more iOS things being ported to the Mac side. Even hardware development is shared between the platforms and will be shared with the Vision platform. Even with 10% of the company's revenues the Mac is nowhere near 10% of Apple's OpEx so it definitely makes more money than it costs to develop and maintain.
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    > Windows is garbage I accept that as an ex-MSFTie I am biased - but I'm honestly curious what Windows did to you that put you off it. Can you share? (Though I agree Windows 11 is ... not good, so I'm sticking with Windows 10 - though I am starting to experiment with a Slackware desktop too).

tcmart14 3y ago

The one major flaw I would like to point out here. Don't look at development on apple silicon as only development on Apple silicon. They base the architecture off their A-series processors in their phones, but scaled up. So all the research money for Apple Silicon is also research money for their in house A-series processors for their phones.

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
Yes, that’s my very point.