6 ms·

Shop Class 2.0: Rethinking High School to Accelerate Electrification

57 points by jeiden 3y ago

jeiden 3y ago
We'll be short 1M electricians by 2020. Bringing vocational training back into high schools will help us ditch fossil fuels, bridge the skilled workforce gap, and empower more young people to succeed.
- pirocks 3y ago
  1 million electricians strikes me as a lot of electricians. Also it already is 2020. Typo perhaps? Source?
- vkou 3y ago
  So, when will wage growth cover that 1M gap? It's 2023, already...
- passwordoops 3y ago
  Cool this guy has a time machine!! When you get back, put all your money in GME, but sell everything on January 17, 2021
- jeiden 3y ago
  Apologies all - *2030. Source is Rewiring America, page 40: https://downloads.ctfassets.net/v4qx5q5o44nj/4LvLQrqfbIcpgvkiMzI3pQ/64976597b0defff0c484d9aaa6049dbd/Electrify_My_Government_Dec_2022.pdf https://downloads.ctfassets.net/v4qx5q5o44nj/4LvLQrqfbIcpgvk...
ecshafer 3y ago
New York State has this program called BOCES, which are cooperative job training high schools that students can optionally go to part time in their Junior / Senior year of high school. So you can go and learn welding, mechanics, electrical, construction, it networking, cooking, etc. The schools usually are targeting students who aren't college bound. But it is a great program which I know a lot of people who were able to get solid careers going right out of high school.
photochemsyn 3y ago
Good idea - but practically, we'd have to raise the minimum wage to make these jobs attractive to young people, and a national infrastructure program would also be needed to provide the financing. Otherwise we'll just continue to slide towards a system of wealthy enclaves surrounded by miles of slums, and slum dwellers can't afford to pay for construction upgrades. Granted, wealthy enclave dwellers will be providing some jobs, but they'll probably be hiring contractors whose workforce consists of cheap immigrant labor, not recent graduates of American high schools. There are historical examples where electrification was accelerated, e.g. FDR New Deal programs like Rural Electrification and the WPA, but that would entail a complete restructuring of federal government priorities, increased taxes on the wealthy, redirection of military-industrial budgets to domestic infrastructure, etc. Seems unlikely in the current political climate, where oligarchs run both parties like sock puppets.
- ecshafer 3y ago
  Electricians and HVAC don't make minimum wage. I know HVAC workers making $100k a year in a LCOL area, which is more than many people with degrees or master's degrees make. Many of these areas require certifications as well, so you can't just have any person do it (if you are doing it legally).
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Plumber in the midwest I use for some properties just let me know their new rate is $160/hour. My electrician is booked months out. I had to trench 24-30" deep and lay 4" schedule 40 non metallic conduit (PVC) ~120 feet myself to upgrade the service entrance at a new property.
    - skullone 3y ago
      I like your username. I too had to trench for new utilities, and remodel half my house myself because no trades are available in time for movein
      - 3y ago
cptcobalt 3y ago
I work in renewable energy, and have started to get my hands on electrical work here and there—this is a serious space of opportunity for people starting their careers. Not every job needs to be (nor can be) a desk job, and with the advent of AI tools, you'll still have many hands-one roles in the field. Much of the difficulty of getting solar and home battery storage (like Powerwall) is because there is such a shortage of electricians.
- teeray 3y ago
  “Shop Class as Soulcraft” has a line that stuck in my memory: “You can’t hammer nails over the Internet.” Also, before the pedants go finding nail hammering robots, it’s a simplification to make the point that there will always be room for the trades in the real world.
- cinntaile 3y ago
  Installing solar och batteries yourself is not legal in most places I presume. It's not here at least.
  - reportingsjr 3y ago
    Not true in most of the US, you do need to get engineered drawings, permits, etc which can be challenging for the average person.
  - triyambakam 3y ago
    Where is here for you? Sweden?
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Something that really frustrates me is that modern society doesn't seem to provide many opportunities for balance when it comes to work. I don't think I'd enjoy (and can't currently afford to) be a full time electrician. But I think some mix of doing professional electrical work and building software sounds pretty great. But expertise is critical and it's hard to build it by splitting time.
BluePen7 3y ago
It's funny, in high school due to social perceptions I didn't align myself with the "shop kids", and took exclusively computer-based electives. It's led me to a lucrative career in programming, but now all my hobbiest time is actually spent learning the same hands-on skills I would have gotten in shop class, I love doing automotive repairs, I even learned how to fix my own AC system, and want to learn to weld. Electrical is the tricky one because it's the one with the most consequences for mistakes. I wish there was a "electrician lite" night school or something.
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  This is pretty common. If you sit at a desk typing all day, you get home and want to do something physical.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    The grass is always greener: Lots of people who work with their hands envy us sitting at our climate controlled desks all day (doing god-knows-what). Although they do often tell me "oh I could never actually do that, I'd lose my mind". Which of course many of us do :)
- munificent 3y ago
  My pandemic hobby was dabbling in electronics building synthesizer modules. You can learn a whole lot about electricity by working on small low voltage projects like that without any risk of harm to yourself.
- browningstreet 3y ago
  Both, he tried to tell us… Brian: I'm a **in' idiot because I can't make a lamp? Bender: No, you're a genius because you can't make a lamp. Brian: What do you know about Trigonometry? Bender: I could care less about Trigonometry. Brian: Bender, did you know without Trigonometry there'd be no engineering? Bender: Without lamps, there'd be no light.
  - cmollis 3y ago
fn-mote 3y ago
Just read the recent HN reponses to "The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice [...]" [1]. Until an article addresses that, it's just wishful thinking. This article does address the push for all kids to college. Read comments at [2] as well. Very useful comments about the barriers to entry: [3]. My own biggest concerns would be: 1. Popular anti-union perception: bad for recruitment, and bad once you're in. 2. Need to be in good financial shape by 40 so you don' I recently read a long thread explaining how hard it is to apprentice to an electrician, and how only the people at the top who own their own companies are really making good money. Too much work too dig it out.t ruin your body. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34262345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34262345 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34263317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34263317 [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34273605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34273605
- ender341341 3y ago
  > 1. Popular anti-union perception: bad for recruitment, and bad once you're in. The doublethink I hear on unions is crazy. I have multiple family in the trades that are un-unioned and their statements are along the lines of: - They constantly bitch about how horrible unions are - Oh, {insert company here} workers voted to unionize? the unions just gonna fuck 'em over - All the people they started with who moved to unions are retired with well funded retirement funds and they really should have gone union when they were young.
marpstar 3y ago
It's such an obvious problem. It's hard enough to get an electrician to come check your place for a basic job -- how do we expect to even simply build enough charging stations so that the average consumer doesn't need to think about taking a 500mi trip? I wonder if the average person thinks that something like a Tesla charging station is something that's manufactured somewhere far away from them and just plugged in to a the nearest power line. "We have electricity everywhere so it's just a matter of time" mentality. We drove kids to college under the guise of "you'll be fucked if you don't" while simultaneously sounding the alarm on climate change but didn't think to try and connect the two problems to anticipate the solution 30 years ago?
imtringued 3y ago
Why bother? Western countries doubled down on climate change as their immigration policy. There won't be a labor shortage in the future. The only shortage will be the number of guardsmen patrolling the border and the problem with those is that they need to be loyal and swiftly execute "permanent" orders or else their backlog will grow like that of a college student who constantly has to correct his homework and resubmit it.
prudentpomelo 3y ago
I took shop class in high school and was a welder for 9 years after I graduated. I think we can absolutely shorten the entry into the trades. I would have loved to work an entry level welding job in the summers once I turned 14. It would have been a whole lot better than all the dangerous shit I did working for farmers. There is so much untapped interest in the trades among teenagers. A neighbor kid I grew up with, struggled with acting out in school. His home life was massively disfunctional. However, he loved to tinker and play with all things mechanical. I think an apprenticeship in high school would have been life changing for kids like him.
PrivateButts 3y ago
At my high school taking trade classes would take up half your day, as you would have to take a bus to the regional facility that had all the trade classes. It was scheduled almost perfectly to overlap with the classes you would need if you wanted to get into college for a STEM degree. We had shop classrooms on site all kitted out to teach kids welding, carpentry, and fabrication skills, and even had the old shop teacher still on staff. Admin just didn't want to teach it anymore, and all that equipment sat gathering dust. It would have been sick to offer a beginner's welding class as a study hall alternative.
fatnoah 3y ago
I think this is an amazing idea. My high school was also home to a regional vocational trade center, meaning we had amazing facilities for any kind of trade, including a small restaurant. Students in the program actually built a complete house one year, and many of my friends took full advantage to jump directly into trade careers upon graduation. As a student on the honors track, all of this was completely inaccessible to me due to academic requirements. For example, to take Calculus as a senior, I had to have already complete 4 years of math classes (meaning doubling up one year). Calculus itself was a "lab" class, meaning it met 3 days a week for an hour, and 2 days a week for 2.5 hours. That left zero time for anything not "academic". As an adult, I use algebra and geometry frequently, and have to resort to Youtube to learn the plumbing, carpentry, and light electrical work I use almost every weekend to maintain my home. It would have been nice to have learned this at a younger age, so that I could do things efficiently and at a higher quality instead of fumbling around for hours.

57 points by jeiden 3y ago

We'll be short 1M electricians by 2020. Bringing vocational training back into high schools will help us ditch fossil fuels, bridge the skilled workforce gap, and empower more young people to succeed.

pirocks 3y ago
1 million electricians strikes me as a lot of electricians. Also it already is 2020. Typo perhaps? Source?
vkou 3y ago
So, when will wage growth cover that 1M gap? It's 2023, already...
passwordoops 3y ago
Cool this guy has a time machine!! When you get back, put all your money in GME, but sell everything on January 17, 2021
jeiden 3y ago
Apologies all - *2030. Source is Rewiring America, page 40: https://downloads.ctfassets.net/v4qx5q5o44nj/4LvLQrqfbIcpgvkiMzI3pQ/64976597b0defff0c484d9aaa6049dbd/Electrify_My_Government_Dec_2022.pdf https://downloads.ctfassets.net/v4qx5q5o44nj/4LvLQrqfbIcpgvk...

ecshafer 3y ago

New York State has this program called BOCES, which are cooperative job training high schools that students can optionally go to part time in their Junior / Senior year of high school. So you can go and learn welding, mechanics, electrical, construction, it networking, cooking, etc. The schools usually are targeting students who aren't college bound. But it is a great program which I know a lot of people who were able to get solid careers going right out of high school.

photochemsyn 3y ago

Good idea - but practically, we'd have to raise the minimum wage to make these jobs attractive to young people, and a national infrastructure program would also be needed to provide the financing. Otherwise we'll just continue to slide towards a system of wealthy enclaves surrounded by miles of slums, and slum dwellers can't afford to pay for construction upgrades. Granted, wealthy enclave dwellers will be providing some jobs, but they'll probably be hiring contractors whose workforce consists of cheap immigrant labor, not recent graduates of American high schools. There are historical examples where electrification was accelerated, e.g. FDR New Deal programs like Rural Electrification and the WPA, but that would entail a complete restructuring of federal government priorities, increased taxes on the wealthy, redirection of military-industrial budgets to domestic infrastructure, etc. Seems unlikely in the current political climate, where oligarchs run both parties like sock puppets.

ecshafer 3y ago
Electricians and HVAC don't make minimum wage. I know HVAC workers making $100k a year in a LCOL area, which is more than many people with degrees or master's degrees make. Many of these areas require certifications as well, so you can't just have any person do it (if you are doing it legally).
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Plumber in the midwest I use for some properties just let me know their new rate is $160/hour. My electrician is booked months out. I had to trench 24-30" deep and lay 4" schedule 40 non metallic conduit (PVC) ~120 feet myself to upgrade the service entrance at a new property.
  - skullone 3y ago
    I like your username. I too had to trench for new utilities, and remodel half my house myself because no trades are available in time for movein
    - 3y ago

cptcobalt 3y ago

I work in renewable energy, and have started to get my hands on electrical work here and there—this is a serious space of opportunity for people starting their careers. Not every job needs to be (nor can be) a desk job, and with the advent of AI tools, you'll still have many hands-one roles in the field. Much of the difficulty of getting solar and home battery storage (like Powerwall) is because there is such a shortage of electricians.

teeray 3y ago
“Shop Class as Soulcraft” has a line that stuck in my memory: “You can’t hammer nails over the Internet.” Also, before the pedants go finding nail hammering robots, it’s a simplification to make the point that there will always be room for the trades in the real world.
cinntaile 3y ago
Installing solar och batteries yourself is not legal in most places I presume. It's not here at least.
- reportingsjr 3y ago
  Not true in most of the US, you do need to get engineered drawings, permits, etc which can be challenging for the average person.
- triyambakam 3y ago
  Where is here for you? Sweden?
sanderjd 3y ago
Something that really frustrates me is that modern society doesn't seem to provide many opportunities for balance when it comes to work. I don't think I'd enjoy (and can't currently afford to) be a full time electrician. But I think some mix of doing professional electrical work and building software sounds pretty great. But expertise is critical and it's hard to build it by splitting time.

BluePen7 3y ago

It's funny, in high school due to social perceptions I didn't align myself with the "shop kids", and took exclusively computer-based electives. It's led me to a lucrative career in programming, but now all my hobbiest time is actually spent learning the same hands-on skills I would have gotten in shop class, I love doing automotive repairs, I even learned how to fix my own AC system, and want to learn to weld. Electrical is the tricky one because it's the one with the most consequences for mistakes. I wish there was a "electrician lite" night school or something.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago
This is pretty common. If you sit at a desk typing all day, you get home and want to do something physical.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  The grass is always greener: Lots of people who work with their hands envy us sitting at our climate controlled desks all day (doing god-knows-what). Although they do often tell me "oh I could never actually do that, I'd lose my mind". Which of course many of us do :)
munificent 3y ago
My pandemic hobby was dabbling in electronics building synthesizer modules. You can learn a whole lot about electricity by working on small low voltage projects like that without any risk of harm to yourself.
browningstreet 3y ago
Both, he tried to tell us… Brian: I'm a **in' idiot because I can't make a lamp? Bender: No, you're a genius because you can't make a lamp. Brian: What do you know about Trigonometry? Bender: I could care less about Trigonometry. Brian: Bender, did you know without Trigonometry there'd be no engineering? Bender: Without lamps, there'd be no light.
- cmollis 3y ago

fn-mote 3y ago

Just read the recent HN reponses to "The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice [...]" [1]. Until an article addresses that, it's just wishful thinking. This article does address the push for all kids to college. Read comments at [2] as well. Very useful comments about the barriers to entry: [3]. My own biggest concerns would be: 1. Popular anti-union perception: bad for recruitment, and bad once you're in. 2. Need to be in good financial shape by 40 so you don' I recently read a long thread explaining how hard it is to apprentice to an electrician, and how only the people at the top who own their own companies are really making good money. Too much work too dig it out.t ruin your body. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34262345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34262345 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34263317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34263317 [3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34273605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34273605

ender341341 3y ago
> 1. Popular anti-union perception: bad for recruitment, and bad once you're in. The doublethink I hear on unions is crazy. I have multiple family in the trades that are un-unioned and their statements are along the lines of: - They constantly bitch about how horrible unions are - Oh, {insert company here} workers voted to unionize? the unions just gonna fuck 'em over - All the people they started with who moved to unions are retired with well funded retirement funds and they really should have gone union when they were young.

marpstar 3y ago

It's such an obvious problem. It's hard enough to get an electrician to come check your place for a basic job -- how do we expect to even simply build enough charging stations so that the average consumer doesn't need to think about taking a 500mi trip? I wonder if the average person thinks that something like a Tesla charging station is something that's manufactured somewhere far away from them and just plugged in to a the nearest power line. "We have electricity everywhere so it's just a matter of time" mentality. We drove kids to college under the guise of "you'll be fucked if you don't" while simultaneously sounding the alarm on climate change but didn't think to try and connect the two problems to anticipate the solution 30 years ago?

imtringued 3y ago

Why bother? Western countries doubled down on climate change as their immigration policy. There won't be a labor shortage in the future. The only shortage will be the number of guardsmen patrolling the border and the problem with those is that they need to be loyal and swiftly execute "permanent" orders or else their backlog will grow like that of a college student who constantly has to correct his homework and resubmit it.

prudentpomelo 3y ago

I took shop class in high school and was a welder for 9 years after I graduated. I think we can absolutely shorten the entry into the trades. I would have loved to work an entry level welding job in the summers once I turned 14. It would have been a whole lot better than all the dangerous shit I did working for farmers. There is so much untapped interest in the trades among teenagers. A neighbor kid I grew up with, struggled with acting out in school. His home life was massively disfunctional. However, he loved to tinker and play with all things mechanical. I think an apprenticeship in high school would have been life changing for kids like him.

PrivateButts 3y ago

At my high school taking trade classes would take up half your day, as you would have to take a bus to the regional facility that had all the trade classes. It was scheduled almost perfectly to overlap with the classes you would need if you wanted to get into college for a STEM degree. We had shop classrooms on site all kitted out to teach kids welding, carpentry, and fabrication skills, and even had the old shop teacher still on staff. Admin just didn't want to teach it anymore, and all that equipment sat gathering dust. It would have been sick to offer a beginner's welding class as a study hall alternative.

fatnoah 3y ago

I think this is an amazing idea. My high school was also home to a regional vocational trade center, meaning we had amazing facilities for any kind of trade, including a small restaurant. Students in the program actually built a complete house one year, and many of my friends took full advantage to jump directly into trade careers upon graduation. As a student on the honors track, all of this was completely inaccessible to me due to academic requirements. For example, to take Calculus as a senior, I had to have already complete 4 years of math classes (meaning doubling up one year). Calculus itself was a "lab" class, meaning it met 3 days a week for an hour, and 2 days a week for 2.5 hours. That left zero time for anything not "academic". As an adult, I use algebra and geometry frequently, and have to resort to Youtube to learn the plumbing, carpentry, and light electrical work I use almost every weekend to maintain my home. It would have been nice to have learned this at a younger age, so that I could do things efficiently and at a higher quality instead of fumbling around for hours.