5 ms·

> Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productiv

by Fiahil 3y ago

> Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. > except for emergencies, where you're paying them overtime They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour.

chmod775 3y ago
> Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? > They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour. If you're not compensating them for the overtime, then you're taking those hours away somewhere else, i.e. giving them time off. In my contract, which is less than "full time", I get paid for overtime up to 40 hours / week. Eventually anyhow if I didn't compensate the hours somewhere else.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  > As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? One thing I noticed about German office culture (I worked with a bunch of multinationals) is that there's much less chit-chat and more focus on the work to be done, relatively to Anglosphere (Irish/Uk at least) office culture. I could certainly see how this would lead to approximately the same output even with less hours.
mathisfun123 3y ago
>Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, F to doubt. I'm not some jingoist but it seems obvious to me that if Germans were more productive then I'd be able to name at least one FAANG tier company based on Germany.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  That's not how developer productivity works. US has more FAANGs than Germany because they have a lot more money, and because the ones with the money (investors and VCs) are a lot more likely to invest it in starting SW companies than in Germany where investors are a lot more conservative with their money and don't take any risks.
  - mathisfun123 3y ago
    > That's not how developer productivity works So me pointing out that there are no FAANGs is reductive but claiming 32 hours is peak productivity isn't being reductive? Hmmm. I hate to break it to you but productivity is measured not by wishful thinking but by capital markets. If German devs were more productive then capital would move to Germany.
    - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
      No, it's because you're massively confusing capital accumulation with worker productivity and you boiled your argument down to "that neighborhood is full of McMansions, while the other neighborhood is full of slums, therefore that neighborhood must be full of hard working productive people and the other must be full of lazy bums who aren't as productive otherwise they'd also have McMansions too". Capital accumulation is much more than worker productivity, it depends on historical factors, the local banking sector, time in the market, investor mentality and risk taking, local laws and regulations for both workers and investors, and most importantly taxes, both on workers and on investors. Worker efficiency is only a small part of that. As a productive worker I have no control of the other factors that attract investors to my city/country like political instability, corruption, geography, wars on my border, banking, taxes and laws.
      - mathisfun123 3y ago
        > You're massively confusing capital accumulation with worker productivity. No I think it's you who is confused about the difference between capital, which can be moved, is fungible, and property (like mcmansions). The whole point, literally the whole point, of capital markets is enabling people to move their money opportunistically in a way that's impossible with property. > it depends on historical factors, the local banking sector, time in the market Do you realize you're talking about Western Europe here and not like some developing nation? And Bavaria no less? Like I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the extant banks in the area go all the way back to knights of templar. > As a productive worker I have no control of the other factors that attract investors to my city/country like political instability, corruption, geography, wars on my border, banking, taxes and laws. Again, Western Europe, not LA or subsaharan Africa or whatever. Germany is without a doubt top 5 in terms of both stability and lack of corruption.
- kgeist 3y ago
  >I'd be able to name at least one FAANG tier company based on Germany SAP? >SAP is the largest non-American software company by revenue, the world's third-largest publicly traded software company by revenue
  - mathisfun123 3y ago
    >company by revenue This is dissembling by picking the metric that measures literally the exact opposite of productivity. SAP has the same number of employees (more?) as eg FB but its net income is 1/10th.
    - kgeist 3y ago
      Are there companies with FB-like metrics outside of US at all?
      - mathisfun123 3y ago
        I guess not (honestly don't know) but if there aren't then that seems to be more evidence in favor the idea that American devs are more productive, not less.
        arp242 3y ago
        You can't just map metrics/profit to employee productivity; it should be obvious there are so many other factors.
- rjmunro 3y ago
  I don't think companies reach "FAANG tier" due to national average developer productivity. It's far more about the business culture than the developers.
- EddieJLSH 3y ago
  Which company has full self-driving permissions in California and Nevada again?

by Fiahil 3y ago

chmod775 3y ago

> Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? > They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour. If you're not compensating them for the overtime, then you're taking those hours away somewhere else, i.e. giving them time off. In my contract, which is less than "full time", I get paid for overtime up to 40 hours / week. Eventually anyhow if I didn't compensate the hours somewhere else.

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
> As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? One thing I noticed about German office culture (I worked with a bunch of multinationals) is that there's much less chit-chat and more focus on the work to be done, relatively to Anglosphere (Irish/Uk at least) office culture. I could certainly see how this would lead to approximately the same output even with less hours.

mathisfun123 3y ago

>Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, F to doubt. I'm not some jingoist but it seems obvious to me that if Germans were more productive then I'd be able to name at least one FAANG tier company based on Germany.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
That's not how developer productivity works. US has more FAANGs than Germany because they have a lot more money, and because the ones with the money (investors and VCs) are a lot more likely to invest it in starting SW companies than in Germany where investors are a lot more conservative with their money and don't take any risks.
- mathisfun123 3y ago
  > That's not how developer productivity works So me pointing out that there are no FAANGs is reductive but claiming 32 hours is peak productivity isn't being reductive? Hmmm. I hate to break it to you but productivity is measured not by wishful thinking but by capital markets. If German devs were more productive then capital would move to Germany.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    No, it's because you're massively confusing capital accumulation with worker productivity and you boiled your argument down to "that neighborhood is full of McMansions, while the other neighborhood is full of slums, therefore that neighborhood must be full of hard working productive people and the other must be full of lazy bums who aren't as productive otherwise they'd also have McMansions too". Capital accumulation is much more than worker productivity, it depends on historical factors, the local banking sector, time in the market, investor mentality and risk taking, local laws and regulations for both workers and investors, and most importantly taxes, both on workers and on investors. Worker efficiency is only a small part of that. As a productive worker I have no control of the other factors that attract investors to my city/country like political instability, corruption, geography, wars on my border, banking, taxes and laws.
    - mathisfun123 3y ago
      > You're massively confusing capital accumulation with worker productivity. No I think it's you who is confused about the difference between capital, which can be moved, is fungible, and property (like mcmansions). The whole point, literally the whole point, of capital markets is enabling people to move their money opportunistically in a way that's impossible with property. > it depends on historical factors, the local banking sector, time in the market Do you realize you're talking about Western Europe here and not like some developing nation? And Bavaria no less? Like I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the extant banks in the area go all the way back to knights of templar. > As a productive worker I have no control of the other factors that attract investors to my city/country like political instability, corruption, geography, wars on my border, banking, taxes and laws. Again, Western Europe, not LA or subsaharan Africa or whatever. Germany is without a doubt top 5 in terms of both stability and lack of corruption.
kgeist 3y ago
>I'd be able to name at least one FAANG tier company based on Germany SAP? >SAP is the largest non-American software company by revenue, the world's third-largest publicly traded software company by revenue
- mathisfun123 3y ago
  >company by revenue This is dissembling by picking the metric that measures literally the exact opposite of productivity. SAP has the same number of employees (more?) as eg FB but its net income is 1/10th.
  - kgeist 3y ago
    Are there companies with FB-like metrics outside of US at all?
    - mathisfun123 3y ago
      I guess not (honestly don't know) but if there aren't then that seems to be more evidence in favor the idea that American devs are more productive, not less.
      - arp242 3y ago
        You can't just map metrics/profit to employee productivity; it should be obvious there are so many other factors.
rjmunro 3y ago
I don't think companies reach "FAANG tier" due to national average developer productivity. It's far more about the business culture than the developers.
EddieJLSH 3y ago
Which company has full self-driving permissions in California and Nevada again?