4 ms·

€50k before taxes for the employee comes usually somewhere around €85k for the company. Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess.

chmod775 3y ago
> Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. For instance it's unlikely you're getting more than ~32 hours / week out of a German software engineer on average, due to caps on working hours and paid days off. That puts the upper limit below what is likely to be the average in the states. Obviously this doesn't translate perfectly into productivity, but it is something you may want to keep in mind as an employer.
- Fiahil 3y ago
  > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. > except for emergencies, where you're paying them overtime They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? > They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour. If you're not compensating them for the overtime, then you're taking those hours away somewhere else, i.e. giving them time off. In my contract, which is less than "full time", I get paid for overtime up to 40 hours / week. Eventually anyhow if I didn't compensate the hours somewhere else.
    - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
      > As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? One thing I noticed about German office culture (I worked with a bunch of multinationals) is that there's much less chit-chat and more focus on the work to be done, relatively to Anglosphere (Irish/Uk at least) office culture. I could certainly see how this would lead to approximately the same output even with less hours.
  - mathisfun123 3y ago
    >Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, F to doubt. I'm not some jingoist but it seems obvious to me that if Germans were more productive then I'd be able to name at least one FAANG tier company based on Germany.
    - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
      That's not how developer productivity works. US has more FAANGs than Germany because they have a lot more money, and because the ones with the money (investors and VCs) are a lot more likely to invest it in starting SW companies than in Germany where investors are a lot more conservative with their money and don't take any risks.
      - mathisfun123 3y ago
        > That's not how developer productivity works So me pointing out that there are no FAANGs is reductive but claiming 32 hours is peak productivity isn't being reductive? Hmmm. I hate to break it to you but productivity is measured not by wishful thinking but by capital markets. If German devs were more productive then capital would move to Germany.
        ChuckNorris89 3y ago
        No, it's because you're massively confusing capital accumulation with worker productivity and you boiled your argument down to "that neighborhood is full of McMansions, while the other neighborhood is full of slums, therefore that neighborhood must be full of hard working productive people and the other must be full of lazy bums who aren't as productive otherwise they'd also have McMansions too". Capital accumulation is much more than worker productivity, it depends on historical factors, the local banking sector, time in the market, investor mentality and risk taking, local laws and regulations for both workers and investors, and most importantly taxes, both on workers and on investors. Worker efficiency is only a small part of that. As a productive worker I have no control of the other factors that attract investors to my city/country like political instability, corruption, geography, wars on my border, banking, taxes and laws.
- xii23 3y ago
  You're getting around 34 hours per week for German employees assuming they don't get sick. US employees in these tech companies either get unlimited time off or generous vacation time anyways, and in average I doubt they take less than 15 days off a year (versus 25 per law in Germany). I don't know how many public holidays you get in the US per law, if any, but still --- the wages in the US are basically double what you'd get in Germany, so I don't think this day difference would justify it.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    > (versus 25 per law in Germany). Most software engineer position in Germany have around 30 if they're at all competitive on the market. In total you get around 220 days where they actually work, vs. 260 days you're paying them for (assuming no sick days).
    - xii23 3y ago
      That's not my experience! I'm currently on a very competitive on the market company (I'm paid way more than most devs I know), but since it's an American company and they can't offer unlimited time off in Germany by law, it seems the amount of days was an afterthought and they just went for 25.
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    After having worked they my US colleagues for over a year now, I can safely say: Americans have more time off than people in Northern Europe. They more public holidays, contractually they have more vacation time, because it's assumed that the vacation required by law in Europe is always very high, so when your country falls below that expectation, then you easily end up with tech companies being more generous in the US.
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      Seriously? In eg Finland the legal minimum is 5 weeks and it's very common for people to take a month off in summer. I've yet to see a US company that matches that ("unlimited" vacation doesn't count), much less one where it's normal for people to completely disconnect for a month.
- Raed667 3y ago
  > software engineers in the states tend to work more hours This is mostly performative presenteeism[0], sitting more hours in a chair does not mean you're producing more. I find that being paid by the day/month, instead of the hour shifts your approach to labor. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism
  - koheripbal 3y ago
    This is not my experience at all, but I can see it in an environment with poor morale
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    Americans also take far less vacation time. Performative daily work or not.

chmod775 3y ago

> Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. For instance it's unlikely you're getting more than ~32 hours / week out of a German software engineer on average, due to caps on working hours and paid days off. That puts the upper limit below what is likely to be the average in the states. Obviously this doesn't translate perfectly into productivity, but it is something you may want to keep in mind as an employer.

Fiahil 3y ago
> Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. > except for emergencies, where you're paying them overtime They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour.
- chmod775 3y ago
  > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? > They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour. If you're not compensating them for the overtime, then you're taking those hours away somewhere else, i.e. giving them time off. In my contract, which is less than "full time", I get paid for overtime up to 40 hours / week. Eventually anyhow if I didn't compensate the hours somewhere else.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    > As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? One thing I noticed about German office culture (I worked with a bunch of multinationals) is that there's much less chit-chat and more focus on the work to be done, relatively to Anglosphere (Irish/Uk at least) office culture. I could certainly see how this would lead to approximately the same output even with less hours.
- mathisfun123 3y ago
  >Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, F to doubt. I'm not some jingoist but it seems obvious to me that if Germans were more productive then I'd be able to name at least one FAANG tier company based on Germany.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    That's not how developer productivity works. US has more FAANGs than Germany because they have a lot more money, and because the ones with the money (investors and VCs) are a lot more likely to invest it in starting SW companies than in Germany where investors are a lot more conservative with their money and don't take any risks.
    - mathisfun123 3y ago
      > That's not how developer productivity works So me pointing out that there are no FAANGs is reductive but claiming 32 hours is peak productivity isn't being reductive? Hmmm. I hate to break it to you but productivity is measured not by wishful thinking but by capital markets. If German devs were more productive then capital would move to Germany.
      - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
        No, it's because you're massively confusing capital accumulation with worker productivity and you boiled your argument down to "that neighborhood is full of McMansions, while the other neighborhood is full of slums, therefore that neighborhood must be full of hard working productive people and the other must be full of lazy bums who aren't as productive otherwise they'd also have McMansions too". Capital accumulation is much more than worker productivity, it depends on historical factors, the local banking sector, time in the market, investor mentality and risk taking, local laws and regulations for both workers and investors, and most importantly taxes, both on workers and on investors. Worker efficiency is only a small part of that. As a productive worker I have no control of the other factors that attract investors to my city/country like political instability, corruption, geography, wars on my border, banking, taxes and laws.
xii23 3y ago
You're getting around 34 hours per week for German employees assuming they don't get sick. US employees in these tech companies either get unlimited time off or generous vacation time anyways, and in average I doubt they take less than 15 days off a year (versus 25 per law in Germany). I don't know how many public holidays you get in the US per law, if any, but still --- the wages in the US are basically double what you'd get in Germany, so I don't think this day difference would justify it.
- chmod775 3y ago
  > (versus 25 per law in Germany). Most software engineer position in Germany have around 30 if they're at all competitive on the market. In total you get around 220 days where they actually work, vs. 260 days you're paying them for (assuming no sick days).
  - xii23 3y ago
    That's not my experience! I'm currently on a very competitive on the market company (I'm paid way more than most devs I know), but since it's an American company and they can't offer unlimited time off in Germany by law, it seems the amount of days was an afterthought and they just went for 25.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  After having worked they my US colleagues for over a year now, I can safely say: Americans have more time off than people in Northern Europe. They more public holidays, contractually they have more vacation time, because it's assumed that the vacation required by law in Europe is always very high, so when your country falls below that expectation, then you easily end up with tech companies being more generous in the US.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Seriously? In eg Finland the legal minimum is 5 weeks and it's very common for people to take a month off in summer. I've yet to see a US company that matches that ("unlimited" vacation doesn't count), much less one where it's normal for people to completely disconnect for a month.
Raed667 3y ago
> software engineers in the states tend to work more hours This is mostly performative presenteeism[0], sitting more hours in a chair does not mean you're producing more. I find that being paid by the day/month, instead of the hour shifts your approach to labor. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism
- koheripbal 3y ago
  This is not my experience at all, but I can see it in an environment with poor morale
- vineyardmike 3y ago
  Americans also take far less vacation time. Performative daily work or not.