7 ms·

Bending Spoons is an Italian company. Most of their job postings are Milan, Italy, or fully remote, with the preference for those in between GMT-2 and GMT+3 tim

by srg0 3y ago

Bending Spoons is an Italian company. Most of their job postings are Milan, Italy, or fully remote, with the preference for those in between GMT-2 and GMT+3 time zones. Assuming they want to continue Evernote as a product, I wonder if they laid off US and Chile stuff, because it was difficult to manage two teams in different time zones, or just it is cheaper to gather an equivalent EU-only team (Their entry-level positions are approx €50k/year, though the cost for the employer is higher).

saiya-jin 3y ago
I can't imagine a similar position would cost 50k in Chile. Also, offering remote in EU gives you access to places like Romania, Slovakia or Bulgaria, where you can get good enough talent for half of that. It can also be 100% of the sum and just use them as contractors (with benefit of quick & easy firing if needed, no lengthy HR dances).
that_guy_iain 3y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if entry-level positions are lower than 50k a year. Especially in Italy.
- mmkos 3y ago
  Not sure what currency you have in mind, but I'm in Europe and I know it is. In fact, I just checked and it is a meagre €26k according to Glassdoor (median). I don't know why that is. First thought would be that European countries' economies are still mostly based on old industries and so the value of software isn't as big here? I'd like to know.
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    Salaries just aren't as a large by default the average dev salary for an experienced in the US is 100k. In the UK for example it's about 35k GBP. Germany about 50k EUR. Entry-level in Germany is 35-40k for a developer. I hear that italy has lower salaries. France might have higher.
    - ffhhttt 3y ago
      So the average salary for an experienced developer in Britain is just barely above the national median? That’s a bit surprising..
    - siquick 3y ago
      > In the UK for example it's about 35k GBP Any source for this as it’s very different to what I’ve seen.
      - that_guy_iain 3y ago
        Experience. A UK average takes in all the various spots. Like Manchester is about 50k. London about 80-90k. But all those small little companies with developers in the middle of nowhere bring the average down. Then all the digital agencies paying pennies brings the average down. I had a remote contract in the UK at the start of the year that was 80k. So I know good pay is available but I also have an inbox full of 24-40k a year roles from recruiters.
    - legulere 3y ago
      Median salary for all software developers in Germany (not just experienced) was 64.584€ in 2021 and should have risen quite a lot with current inflation by now. https://web.arbeitsagentur.de/entgeltatlas/beruf/15260 https://web.arbeitsagentur.de/entgeltatlas/beruf/15260
- ffhhttt 3y ago
  They seem to list ~ 50k as the bottom range on their site
- srg0 3y ago
  Indeed, entry level positions in Italy are much lower in general, but that's what Bending Spoons advertise on their website [1]. Milan is an expensive city, the average wage 2.5x the national average, and they're kind of a cool employer, so I suppose they can be more selective. [1]: https://jobs.bendingspoons.com/positions/63eb93a4a9adba3723834b68 https://jobs.bendingspoons.com/positions/63eb93a4a9adba37238...
Raed667 3y ago
€50k before taxes for the employee comes usually somewhere around €85k for the company. Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess.
- chmod775 3y ago
  > Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. For instance it's unlikely you're getting more than ~32 hours / week out of a German software engineer on average, due to caps on working hours and paid days off. That puts the upper limit below what is likely to be the average in the states. Obviously this doesn't translate perfectly into productivity, but it is something you may want to keep in mind as an employer.
  - Fiahil 3y ago
    > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. > except for emergencies, where you're paying them overtime They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour.
    - chmod775 3y ago
      > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? > They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour. If you're not compensating them for the overtime, then you're taking those hours away somewhere else, i.e. giving them time off. In my contract, which is less than "full time", I get paid for overtime up to 40 hours / week. Eventually anyhow if I didn't compensate the hours somewhere else.
      - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        > As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? One thing I noticed about German office culture (I worked with a bunch of multinationals) is that there's much less chit-chat and more focus on the work to be done, relatively to Anglosphere (Irish/Uk at least) office culture. I could certainly see how this would lead to approximately the same output even with less hours.
nickserv 3y ago
Probably both. Having been there, managing a development team with more than 2-3 hours difference is a real pain, especially if peak usage is not in the developers' time zone. It's almost always a cost saving measure (off shoring). Add to that the exorbitant salaries of Bay area developers and it's pretty much a no-brainer. In my personal/anecdotal experience, Italian developers are about the same as US developers, even if Italian management is a different story;-)
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  The thing that is never said about remote, is that a lot of employers work with employees that are neither very good nor motivated. Now you could say that it's a management problem, that as to be solved. But meanwhile, this is the situation right now. And employees that are not very good nor motivated are not very productive remotely, and are difficult to manager from a distance or with time zone differences.
  - ChuckNorris89 3y ago
    >The thing that is never said about remote, is that a lot of employers work with employees that are neither very good nor motivated. Nothing to do with remote. In-office companies are also filled with people who are not good nor motivated, but need to be there because they have to eat and pay rent/mortgage, and that job was their best option. For most workers, remote or otherwise, unless they have significant skin in the game in terms of sizable equity, their job is just a paycheck and they'll optimize for doing as little work as possible, for the biggest paycheck possible. Companies only push for in-office work to better surveil and micromanage workers, thinking in-office builds attachment to the work and workplace, not to motivate people more. You motivate people with money, equity, time off and interesting work.
    - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
      > Nothing to do with remote. A lot of those people are comfortable slacking off when noone see them, but will work when being at work.
dathinab 3y ago
From my experience: 1. there is a humongous difference between remote work in (roughly) the same time zone and fully distributed work across the globe 2. having non EU employees as a EU company without having a daughter company in the country the employees are in, without them moving to the EU during the employment, without them being self employees/free lancers it a complete nightmare to get legally right. Worse a nightmare which not only changes between any country pairing (different EU countries have different employment laws) in case of the US might even change depending on the US state.... AFIK all companies either only hire freelancers, do have non-EU daughter companies, do hire through a proxy firm (there are firms exactly for this, but there are their own legal mess), or do it not fully legally right. At the same time having a US daughter company also comes as a cost (many a way more complex legal structure). And all of this method still have high book keeping/complexity/fee cost. 3. legal hassles of data protection and having e.g. sys admin outside of the EU (and in case of dev ops that can easily extend to large parts of the team depending on how it was implemented). So from a business POV it can make a lot of sense, especially if they plane to mostly milk Evernote. Through without question it has a very high potential for disruption of Evernote development and operation. > approx €50k/year, though the cost for the employer is higher yes WAY higher, and you also pay a good amount of the 50k in taxes but together this then covers pension, unemployment and health insurance around 20 payed vacation days and additional payed holiday days, various child benefits if you have one depending on country and in most cases reasonable employee and employer rights and protections trying to avoid power abuse in both directions (through mainly protecting the employed person).

by srg0 3y ago

saiya-jin 3y ago

I can't imagine a similar position would cost 50k in Chile. Also, offering remote in EU gives you access to places like Romania, Slovakia or Bulgaria, where you can get good enough talent for half of that. It can also be 100% of the sum and just use them as contractors (with benefit of quick & easy firing if needed, no lengthy HR dances).

that_guy_iain 3y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if entry-level positions are lower than 50k a year. Especially in Italy.

mmkos 3y ago
Not sure what currency you have in mind, but I'm in Europe and I know it is. In fact, I just checked and it is a meagre €26k according to Glassdoor (median). I don't know why that is. First thought would be that European countries' economies are still mostly based on old industries and so the value of software isn't as big here? I'd like to know.
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  Salaries just aren't as a large by default the average dev salary for an experienced in the US is 100k. In the UK for example it's about 35k GBP. Germany about 50k EUR. Entry-level in Germany is 35-40k for a developer. I hear that italy has lower salaries. France might have higher.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    So the average salary for an experienced developer in Britain is just barely above the national median? That’s a bit surprising..
  - siquick 3y ago
    > In the UK for example it's about 35k GBP Any source for this as it’s very different to what I’ve seen.
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      Experience. A UK average takes in all the various spots. Like Manchester is about 50k. London about 80-90k. But all those small little companies with developers in the middle of nowhere bring the average down. Then all the digital agencies paying pennies brings the average down. I had a remote contract in the UK at the start of the year that was 80k. So I know good pay is available but I also have an inbox full of 24-40k a year roles from recruiters.
  - legulere 3y ago
    Median salary for all software developers in Germany (not just experienced) was 64.584€ in 2021 and should have risen quite a lot with current inflation by now. https://web.arbeitsagentur.de/entgeltatlas/beruf/15260 https://web.arbeitsagentur.de/entgeltatlas/beruf/15260
ffhhttt 3y ago
They seem to list ~ 50k as the bottom range on their site
srg0 3y ago
Indeed, entry level positions in Italy are much lower in general, but that's what Bending Spoons advertise on their website [1]. Milan is an expensive city, the average wage 2.5x the national average, and they're kind of a cool employer, so I suppose they can be more selective. [1]: https://jobs.bendingspoons.com/positions/63eb93a4a9adba3723834b68 https://jobs.bendingspoons.com/positions/63eb93a4a9adba37238...

Raed667 3y ago

€50k before taxes for the employee comes usually somewhere around €85k for the company. Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess.

chmod775 3y ago
> Which is still cheaper than a US hire I guess. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. For instance it's unlikely you're getting more than ~32 hours / week out of a German software engineer on average, due to caps on working hours and paid days off. That puts the upper limit below what is likely to be the average in the states. Obviously this doesn't translate perfectly into productivity, but it is something you may want to keep in mind as an employer.
- Fiahil 3y ago
  > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to work more hours. Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. > except for emergencies, where you're paying them overtime They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    > Don't forget that software engineers in the states tend to be much less productive than their German counterparts, to continue on your example. As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? > They're not paid overtime, because they're not paid by the hour. If you're not compensating them for the overtime, then you're taking those hours away somewhere else, i.e. giving them time off. In my contract, which is less than "full time", I get paid for overtime up to 40 hours / week. Eventually anyhow if I didn't compensate the hours somewhere else.
    - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
      > As a German software engineer I've got to ask: are we? One thing I noticed about German office culture (I worked with a bunch of multinationals) is that there's much less chit-chat and more focus on the work to be done, relatively to Anglosphere (Irish/Uk at least) office culture. I could certainly see how this would lead to approximately the same output even with less hours.

nickserv 3y ago

Probably both. Having been there, managing a development team with more than 2-3 hours difference is a real pain, especially if peak usage is not in the developers' time zone. It's almost always a cost saving measure (off shoring). Add to that the exorbitant salaries of Bay area developers and it's pretty much a no-brainer. In my personal/anecdotal experience, Italian developers are about the same as US developers, even if Italian management is a different story;-)

BiteCode_dev 3y ago
The thing that is never said about remote, is that a lot of employers work with employees that are neither very good nor motivated. Now you could say that it's a management problem, that as to be solved. But meanwhile, this is the situation right now. And employees that are not very good nor motivated are not very productive remotely, and are difficult to manager from a distance or with time zone differences.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  >The thing that is never said about remote, is that a lot of employers work with employees that are neither very good nor motivated. Nothing to do with remote. In-office companies are also filled with people who are not good nor motivated, but need to be there because they have to eat and pay rent/mortgage, and that job was their best option. For most workers, remote or otherwise, unless they have significant skin in the game in terms of sizable equity, their job is just a paycheck and they'll optimize for doing as little work as possible, for the biggest paycheck possible. Companies only push for in-office work to better surveil and micromanage workers, thinking in-office builds attachment to the work and workplace, not to motivate people more. You motivate people with money, equity, time off and interesting work.
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    > Nothing to do with remote. A lot of those people are comfortable slacking off when noone see them, but will work when being at work.

dathinab 3y ago

From my experience: 1. there is a humongous difference between remote work in (roughly) the same time zone and fully distributed work across the globe 2. having non EU employees as a EU company without having a daughter company in the country the employees are in, without them moving to the EU during the employment, without them being self employees/free lancers it a complete nightmare to get legally right. Worse a nightmare which not only changes between any country pairing (different EU countries have different employment laws) in case of the US might even change depending on the US state.... AFIK all companies either only hire freelancers, do have non-EU daughter companies, do hire through a proxy firm (there are firms exactly for this, but there are their own legal mess), or do it not fully legally right. At the same time having a US daughter company also comes as a cost (many a way more complex legal structure). And all of this method still have high book keeping/complexity/fee cost. 3. legal hassles of data protection and having e.g. sys admin outside of the EU (and in case of dev ops that can easily extend to large parts of the team depending on how it was implemented). So from a business POV it can make a lot of sense, especially if they plane to mostly milk Evernote. Through without question it has a very high potential for disruption of Evernote development and operation. > approx €50k/year, though the cost for the employer is higher yes WAY higher, and you also pay a good amount of the 50k in taxes but together this then covers pension, unemployment and health insurance around 20 payed vacation days and additional payed holiday days, various child benefits if you have one depending on country and in most cases reasonable employee and employer rights and protections trying to avoid power abuse in both directions (through mainly protecting the employed person).