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As a function of a beta release, I would consider the possibility that the alerts are not fully intended for consumers, and that they might in fact be included

As a function of a beta release, I would consider the possibility that the alerts are not fully intended for consumers, and that they might in fact be included in the beta only for the benefit of developers who are presumably testing with Sonoma to discover API calls that need updating in their own products. That might explain the inscrutable (to a non developer) wording, which may reflect a presumption that repeated messages are unnecessary for a developer with the tooling to bisect the code more efficiently.

bangonkeyboard 3y ago
I have learned never to assume that very obviously bad or broken behavior in Apple betas will go away by release.
- jmbwell 3y ago
  That is fair, and I’m with you. I gather from the thread that my comment above seems presumptuous, condescending, and mansplainy. I do think I overstated my thoughts. I only meant to say, “It looks to me like just a beta thing. Let’s hope it goes away.” It didn’t seem like the original article expressed that consideration (though it may well could have—I just missed it at the time), so I thought it might be a thought worth adding. But I over-composed the comment, and I hit the wrong tone. This doesn’t seem like an issue worth sorting people by level of authority or experience over. I suspect we all care a great deal about quality work and quality user experience. The OP is right that these dialogs suck, and you’re correct that Apple has released things that suck, and this might be one of those things. What each of us do in our own work is also not at issue. I’m in solidarity with those below who feel attacked. We shouldn’t have to have our credentials ready for inspection in order to post a worthwhile comment. In any case, for all we know and in all likelihood, the person who committed the change that enabled these notifications could be here in this thread. We don’t have to like the change, but I doubt the person who made it is any of the things they’re implicitly being accused of being.
saagarjha 3y ago
These alerts are useless for developers. They contain no detail as to what should be done and are non-actionable.
- isodev 3y ago
  An alert is hardly the place to list detailed code warnings. I think the prompts are enough to have one open their app in Xcode and review the specific depreciation warnings.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    They’re not. Pretty much every developer I’ve talked to has no idea what this warning means or what they should be doing in response to this. All of them are smart people who are longtime Mac developers. There are a bunch of ways to improve this: you could tell people to look in Console for logs, or name the deprecated API being used. What Apple did instead is they decided to shame apps by name but not tell them what they did wrong, and do so in a way that is quite broken because the warnings don’t even line up with deprecated API usage.
    - Cycl0p 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - lapcat 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Cycl0p 3y ago
        Don’t have to get so personal, I do not know saagarjha nor do I know of his various achievements writing software, and as a matter of fact, you do not know me either. I speak purely off experience, writing/porting software for macOS for more than 4 years, most of the time using Xcode.
lapcat 3y ago
The author of the article is a Mac developer, as am I. The alerts are inscrutable to developers too.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Right, but developers aren't expected to use this to track down the issue. I'm also a macOS developer - if I saw this I'd just turn on warnings in Xcode, wouldn't you? The author seems to say something about using this red alert box to 'bisect' their app to figure out what's wrong? Really? Chances are if this is a deprecation issue, they may just get to the start of their app's history... There is plenty of tooling for this in Xcode and the build system. This is just a nag to remind people to use it. Whether it's working right or not this is meant to nag on ATS and ATSUI which has been deprecated for 13 years.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > I'm also a macOS developer - if I saw this I'd just turn on warnings in Xcode, wouldn't you? Almost everyone has deprecation warnings enabled. They're enabled by default. I occasionally use #pragma clang diagnostic ignored "-Wdeprecated-declarations" for small sections of code, but you can easily search for those. Do you seriously think that Craig Hockenberry, longtime Mac and iOS developer, is so ignorant and dumb as to not understand deprecation warnings in Xcode? Apparently you do, but if so, you're grossly mistaken. > The author seems to say something about using this red alert box to 'bisect' their app to figure out what's wrong? Yes, I'd guess what he means is deleting code in the app until the alert disappears, which would be impossible if the alert appears only once. > Whether it's working right or not this is meant to nag on ATS and ATSUI which has been deprecated for 13 years. As saagarjha said, that’s not what it is. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659491
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      > Yes, I'd guess what he means is deleting code in the app until the alert disappears, which would be impossible if the alert appears only once. You really think that's a reasonable approach? Deleting parts of your app until it goes away? I can't stress this enough this is not a developer tool, and it wouldn't be any more of a developer tool if it appeared every time. > Do you seriously think that Craig Hockenberry, longtime Mac and iOS developer, is so ignorant and dumb as to not understand deprecation warnings in Xcode? Apparently you do, but if so, you're grossly mistaken. Respectfully, I've been developing for macOS longer than you have, I started in 2002. Granted it was my first platform, and I wasn't exactly aged at the time. However, I make mistakes and come to silly conclusions all the time (as folks here are quick to point out), which is why I try to avoid appeals to authority whether for or against my position. My position should stand on its own merits. People get mad about silly things all the time, I'm still mad about brushed metal and the unified toolbar.
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
>As a function of a beta release, I would consider the possibility that the alerts are not fully intended for consumers Read the message box copy, it’s consumer facing copy. Developer facing message box wouldn’t be warning me about another developers deprecated api and telling me to contact them.

bangonkeyboard 3y ago

I have learned never to assume that very obviously bad or broken behavior in Apple betas will go away by release.

jmbwell 3y ago
That is fair, and I’m with you. I gather from the thread that my comment above seems presumptuous, condescending, and mansplainy. I do think I overstated my thoughts. I only meant to say, “It looks to me like just a beta thing. Let’s hope it goes away.” It didn’t seem like the original article expressed that consideration (though it may well could have—I just missed it at the time), so I thought it might be a thought worth adding. But I over-composed the comment, and I hit the wrong tone. This doesn’t seem like an issue worth sorting people by level of authority or experience over. I suspect we all care a great deal about quality work and quality user experience. The OP is right that these dialogs suck, and you’re correct that Apple has released things that suck, and this might be one of those things. What each of us do in our own work is also not at issue. I’m in solidarity with those below who feel attacked. We shouldn’t have to have our credentials ready for inspection in order to post a worthwhile comment. In any case, for all we know and in all likelihood, the person who committed the change that enabled these notifications could be here in this thread. We don’t have to like the change, but I doubt the person who made it is any of the things they’re implicitly being accused of being.

saagarjha 3y ago

These alerts are useless for developers. They contain no detail as to what should be done and are non-actionable.

isodev 3y ago
An alert is hardly the place to list detailed code warnings. I think the prompts are enough to have one open their app in Xcode and review the specific depreciation warnings.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  They’re not. Pretty much every developer I’ve talked to has no idea what this warning means or what they should be doing in response to this. All of them are smart people who are longtime Mac developers. There are a bunch of ways to improve this: you could tell people to look in Console for logs, or name the deprecated API being used. What Apple did instead is they decided to shame apps by name but not tell them what they did wrong, and do so in a way that is quite broken because the warnings don’t even line up with deprecated API usage.
  - Cycl0p 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - lapcat 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Cycl0p 3y ago
        Don’t have to get so personal, I do not know saagarjha nor do I know of his various achievements writing software, and as a matter of fact, you do not know me either. I speak purely off experience, writing/porting software for macOS for more than 4 years, most of the time using Xcode.

lapcat 3y ago

The author of the article is a Mac developer, as am I. The alerts are inscrutable to developers too.

arcticbull 3y ago
Right, but developers aren't expected to use this to track down the issue. I'm also a macOS developer - if I saw this I'd just turn on warnings in Xcode, wouldn't you? The author seems to say something about using this red alert box to 'bisect' their app to figure out what's wrong? Really? Chances are if this is a deprecation issue, they may just get to the start of their app's history... There is plenty of tooling for this in Xcode and the build system. This is just a nag to remind people to use it. Whether it's working right or not this is meant to nag on ATS and ATSUI which has been deprecated for 13 years.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > I'm also a macOS developer - if I saw this I'd just turn on warnings in Xcode, wouldn't you? Almost everyone has deprecation warnings enabled. They're enabled by default. I occasionally use #pragma clang diagnostic ignored "-Wdeprecated-declarations" for small sections of code, but you can easily search for those. Do you seriously think that Craig Hockenberry, longtime Mac and iOS developer, is so ignorant and dumb as to not understand deprecation warnings in Xcode? Apparently you do, but if so, you're grossly mistaken. > The author seems to say something about using this red alert box to 'bisect' their app to figure out what's wrong? Yes, I'd guess what he means is deleting code in the app until the alert disappears, which would be impossible if the alert appears only once. > Whether it's working right or not this is meant to nag on ATS and ATSUI which has been deprecated for 13 years. As saagarjha said, that’s not what it is. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36659491
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > Yes, I'd guess what he means is deleting code in the app until the alert disappears, which would be impossible if the alert appears only once. You really think that's a reasonable approach? Deleting parts of your app until it goes away? I can't stress this enough this is not a developer tool, and it wouldn't be any more of a developer tool if it appeared every time. > Do you seriously think that Craig Hockenberry, longtime Mac and iOS developer, is so ignorant and dumb as to not understand deprecation warnings in Xcode? Apparently you do, but if so, you're grossly mistaken. Respectfully, I've been developing for macOS longer than you have, I started in 2002. Granted it was my first platform, and I wasn't exactly aged at the time. However, I make mistakes and come to silly conclusions all the time (as folks here are quick to point out), which is why I try to avoid appeals to authority whether for or against my position. My position should stand on its own merits. People get mad about silly things all the time, I'm still mad about brushed metal and the unified toolbar.

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

>As a function of a beta release, I would consider the possibility that the alerts are not fully intended for consumers Read the message box copy, it’s consumer facing copy. Developer facing message box wouldn’t be warning me about another developers deprecated api and telling me to contact them.