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This product has opened my eyes to "AR" glasses in general, but I think its way overkill for what I want to do.. My use case is being able to code with a giant

This product has opened my eyes to "AR" glasses in general, but I think its way overkill for what I want to do.. My use case is being able to code with a giant screen anywhere (plane, hotel room, etc). I just want a few giant editor windows and terminals open. I don't care about gaming, AR gimmicks, etc. From what I understand, there are a number of sub $500 options. (xreal air, rokud air, TCL NXTWEAR, etc). However they all get very mixed reviews. I wish there was a retailer that had demo units, as this is something I'd very much like to try before I buy.

SkyPuncher 3y ago
I have the xreal airs. I’m very happy with them as an “on-the go” screen or “I don’t have my desk”, but I certainly prefer my desk setup (triple monitor). I think the price is right for what they do.
- drewg123 3y ago
  Do you use them on an M1 macbook with Nebula? I'm curious if Nebula supports running terminal windows, or is just a web browser or something..
  - SkyPuncher 3y ago
    Yep, on occasion. They work just like a normal monitor. I've had code/terminals/etc open while watching Netflix on a side monitor. When Nebula is open, they simulate 3 individual monitors. Nebula is simply responsible for positioning the screens in space and keeping them where you want.
hordehamhill 3y ago
So what about this product opened your eyes that the previous 15 years of VR/AR did not? Just Apple's marketing power? Or is there something specific about this device that made it click for you?
- drewg123 3y ago
  I had always looked at things like Oculus as a "gaming" accessory. And I demoed Google Glass about 10 years ago, and it didn't present a virtual screen. When seeing the Apple goggles, it clicked for me that this was basically a mac environment, and I started thinking how amazing it would be to run terminals in it, then I started googling for any options that were available now..
  - hordehamhill 3y ago
    Crazy. That's the power of marketing eh. Almost as soon as the DK1 was available, people were running desktop envs inside VR. 3D modelling, CAD, multiple floating desktops, watching movies videos in 3D or big fake theaters, panoramic photos... Google even had a 3D paintbrush program demo on their cardboard product half a decade or more ago. This is stuff all been explored before.
    - threeseed 3y ago
      You do understand that there is a difference between a Toyota and a Porsche and whilst they are both cars it isn't just about marketing. Because yes those features have been available on other devices but what's important and different is how those features have been implemented. And those that have used other headsets and the Vision Pro all say that there is a jump in the quality of experience that hasn't existed before.
      - hordehamhill 3y ago
        Apple is which car in this comparison?
        mcpackieh 3y ago
        Must be the Toyota, since the meme is that Apple products just work. I would have used Honda for this comparison, but Toyota is fine.
    - 3y ago
steveBK123 3y ago
If it was easy to do well on the cheap it would already have been done. Apple seems to have maxed out every possible spec and put a ton of research and software into making a great experience. Probably will see it move down price points from here (it already has Pro in name so presumably that’s the top). The parts will get cheaper over time as well which will help.
- XorNot 3y ago
  While true... That doesn't mean it will actually be any good at what it's trying to do. VR/AR is truly at the edge of our current technological abilities - Apple can have done everything to the best standard possible and still not be good enough here.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Agree. Nor is their a guarantee that its even a viable market at scale. Apple is too big to serve niches (see how they let some product lines wilt like Mac Pro, Apple TV hardware) and needs to sell 10s of millions of units in the near term.
akira2501 3y ago
> My use case is being able to code with a giant screen anywhere I've tried this on other platforms. The device gets heavy and your eyes get hot and sweaty, and dealing with an extension cord running from your head to a battery pack just adds insult to the inconvenience. It's not fun and it was not a major boost to productivity. Plus.. for $3,500 I can just buy quite a few nice monitors.
- threeseed 3y ago
  > I can just buy quite a few nice monitors But you're not taking those monitors anywhere.
  - justinator 3y ago
    Is it really all that hard? https://sidetrak.com/products/swivel-pro-triple-13-3 https://sidetrak.com/products/swivel-pro-triple-13-3
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      ... you cant be serious.
    - teruakohatu 3y ago
      That is a very clever solution. I have seen a person take out a standard moniter, laptop stand, keyboard and mouse from their carry on and set it up on an airport table.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        It’s clever but I’ve never felt a burning need for more than a laptop screen while traveling and don’t even try to work on planes unless it’s just reading.
    - threeseed 3y ago
      Perfect solution for cafes, planes, trains etc. Why even bother with the laptop when you can bring a desktop and diesel generator.
Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
Text editing is actually a harder problem than gaming. For gaming you can very well do with relatively low resolution and big bright objects to shoot at. But displaying clear text requires way higher resolution. I tried Pico 4 headset, and gaming-wise it is fine, you almost forget you are not in your room anymore, but run a browser, and eyes start bleeding out from horrible font rendering. It is somewhat better on Quest 2, but still too bad.
- rcarr 3y ago
  It's true that the text isn't great out of the box on the current batch of 1080p versions. Personally, I just stick the zoom level to 110% / 120% and then find it fine to use though.
- bemmu 3y ago
  I also tried replacing my monitors with a Quest 2. While the idea of not needing space for monitors and have your setup anywhere with you is cool, the resolution just wasn't there yet.
  - jachee 3y ago
    Yeah, this is where the Vision Pro has most of my interest and excitement. The reported[0][1] 3400PPI resolution on the thing is going to be next-level. My main use-case for it will be as a productivity device, and everything else will be a bonus. [0] https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-display-specs-leaked-heres-what-you-get https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-display-spec... [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/apple-vision-pro https://spectrum.ieee.org/apple-vision-pro
    - realharo 3y ago
      What matters for direct comparison with physical monitors is the PPI of the virtual "monitors", not of the tiny screens in the headset. If you have roughly 4K per eye in the headset that renders everything you see, then you can't expect the virtual equivalent of a 4K monitor that only takes up a part of your vision. Lower PPI virtual screens should be usable, but the text may still look bad on those when you can't do things like subpixel antialiasing (macOS on 27" 1440p also suffers from this). Especially if you need to render small text at an angle. If you only work with fairly large text or with pictures/video, that would probably be fine.
tmikaeld 3y ago
The alternatives have the whole unit in the headset in the front, which makes it very warm, sweaty and heavy for the neck - they're also nowhere near the required resolution for comfortably reading text in AR/VR, something that Apple seems to have solved.
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
Try a few first, not everyone's eyes can manage long exposure to have a screen strapped to it. Kids under 11 are generally not allowed to use it for that reason
- CHY872 3y ago
  It's also worth noting that this is dependent on model. E.g. I can handle an HP Reverb G2 indefinitely, but a Meta Quest Pro for only about 30 minutes before I feel ill.
BiteCode_dev 3y ago
I'm rooting for the simula one because of this.
crooked-v 3y ago
I think the factor you're missing is that even the Vision Pro is still only about hitting the bare minimum to be able to comfortably do what you're looking for in terms of specs (and maybe not even then in terms of weight). It's 'overkill' in terms of pricing, but only because we're still years if not decades away from the tech advances needed for true standalone AR glasses.
- bookofjoe 3y ago
  First Macintosh cost $7,400 in today's dollars when introduced after "Big Brother" Super Bowl ad in 1984
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Though most “real” computers were quite expensive by todays standards at the time. The editor in chief of PC Magazine coined Machrones Law—the computer you want always costs $5000 dollars and that I held pretty well for a long time.
    - robocat 3y ago
      There's still a similar pattern in sports - the initial entry-level outlay for a variety of individual sports is $x. And the enthusiast price is similar across very different sports.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        There's clearly a lot more variety in sports though. It's probably hard to have a big entry-level outlay for running or even racquet sports though for the latter you'll often benefit from lessons and there can easily be ongoing costs for club memberships and the like. Whereas SCUBA, mountain biking, golf will be significant and we won't even talk about horseback riding, yachting, etc.
nocontextpls 3y ago
[dead]
fox86 3y ago
yes exactly - so many options with so many games and apps and social media related experiences and all I (and im sure many others) want is a solution to “how can i travel or be in a hotel and open vi/emacs/terminal and code as comfortably as with a huge monitor(s) home setup that’s impractical to haul around”. Even hauling around 16” laptops with a solid keyboard is a pain and can’t compete with a huge monitor(s) at home setup
ketzo 3y ago
Apple’s thesis seems to be that it is not overkill — that, in fact, every other option is significantly underkill, and that’s why you don’t use them despite knowing they exist.
nomel 3y ago
This is also my use case. I use a quest pro for this. It requires relatively large font. If the rumors about the pixels per degree are true, I’ll have trouble keeping my wallet in my pocket.
Vinnl 3y ago
Simula is targeting that use case: https://simulavr.com https://simulavr.com
ip26 3y ago
Do we have any indication whether it’s going to be responsive and fast enough for AR in sports? Maybe it’s a solution looking for a problem, but the best use of AR has always seemed to be for activities that require full attention. Flying a plane, driving a car, riding a bike, etc.
- elishah 3y ago
  Flying a plane, driving a car, and probably riding a bike seem like a poor match when any system malfunction can render you instantly blind. There might be some point in the future at which the risk/benefit tradeoff lands in favorable territory, but I wouldn't bet on it being any time soon.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Closest thing I can think of would be Big Screen Beyond, which I believe will support 3DOF mode without trackers at some point (you should confirm this), and according to YouTuber “Sadly It’s Bradley” is decent for productivity work. But actually resolution is extremely important for that kind of work and only the highest resolution headsets available today can actually work well for that.

SkyPuncher 3y ago

I have the xreal airs. I’m very happy with them as an “on-the go” screen or “I don’t have my desk”, but I certainly prefer my desk setup (triple monitor). I think the price is right for what they do.

drewg123 3y ago
Do you use them on an M1 macbook with Nebula? I'm curious if Nebula supports running terminal windows, or is just a web browser or something..
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  Yep, on occasion. They work just like a normal monitor. I've had code/terminals/etc open while watching Netflix on a side monitor. When Nebula is open, they simulate 3 individual monitors. Nebula is simply responsible for positioning the screens in space and keeping them where you want.

hordehamhill 3y ago

So what about this product opened your eyes that the previous 15 years of VR/AR did not? Just Apple's marketing power? Or is there something specific about this device that made it click for you?

drewg123 3y ago
I had always looked at things like Oculus as a "gaming" accessory. And I demoed Google Glass about 10 years ago, and it didn't present a virtual screen. When seeing the Apple goggles, it clicked for me that this was basically a mac environment, and I started thinking how amazing it would be to run terminals in it, then I started googling for any options that were available now..
- hordehamhill 3y ago
  Crazy. That's the power of marketing eh. Almost as soon as the DK1 was available, people were running desktop envs inside VR. 3D modelling, CAD, multiple floating desktops, watching movies videos in 3D or big fake theaters, panoramic photos... Google even had a 3D paintbrush program demo on their cardboard product half a decade or more ago. This is stuff all been explored before.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    You do understand that there is a difference between a Toyota and a Porsche and whilst they are both cars it isn't just about marketing. Because yes those features have been available on other devices but what's important and different is how those features have been implemented. And those that have used other headsets and the Vision Pro all say that there is a jump in the quality of experience that hasn't existed before.
    - hordehamhill 3y ago
      Apple is which car in this comparison?
      - mcpackieh 3y ago
        Must be the Toyota, since the meme is that Apple products just work. I would have used Honda for this comparison, but Toyota is fine.
  - 3y ago

steveBK123 3y ago

If it was easy to do well on the cheap it would already have been done. Apple seems to have maxed out every possible spec and put a ton of research and software into making a great experience. Probably will see it move down price points from here (it already has Pro in name so presumably that’s the top). The parts will get cheaper over time as well which will help.

XorNot 3y ago
While true... That doesn't mean it will actually be any good at what it's trying to do. VR/AR is truly at the edge of our current technological abilities - Apple can have done everything to the best standard possible and still not be good enough here.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Agree. Nor is their a guarantee that its even a viable market at scale. Apple is too big to serve niches (see how they let some product lines wilt like Mac Pro, Apple TV hardware) and needs to sell 10s of millions of units in the near term.

akira2501 3y ago

> My use case is being able to code with a giant screen anywhere I've tried this on other platforms. The device gets heavy and your eyes get hot and sweaty, and dealing with an extension cord running from your head to a battery pack just adds insult to the inconvenience. It's not fun and it was not a major boost to productivity. Plus.. for $3,500 I can just buy quite a few nice monitors.

threeseed 3y ago
> I can just buy quite a few nice monitors But you're not taking those monitors anywhere.
- justinator 3y ago
  Is it really all that hard? https://sidetrak.com/products/swivel-pro-triple-13-3 https://sidetrak.com/products/swivel-pro-triple-13-3
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    ... you cant be serious.
  - teruakohatu 3y ago
    That is a very clever solution. I have seen a person take out a standard moniter, laptop stand, keyboard and mouse from their carry on and set it up on an airport table.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      It’s clever but I’ve never felt a burning need for more than a laptop screen while traveling and don’t even try to work on planes unless it’s just reading.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    Perfect solution for cafes, planes, trains etc. Why even bother with the laptop when you can bring a desktop and diesel generator.

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago

Text editing is actually a harder problem than gaming. For gaming you can very well do with relatively low resolution and big bright objects to shoot at. But displaying clear text requires way higher resolution. I tried Pico 4 headset, and gaming-wise it is fine, you almost forget you are not in your room anymore, but run a browser, and eyes start bleeding out from horrible font rendering. It is somewhat better on Quest 2, but still too bad.

rcarr 3y ago
It's true that the text isn't great out of the box on the current batch of 1080p versions. Personally, I just stick the zoom level to 110% / 120% and then find it fine to use though.
bemmu 3y ago
I also tried replacing my monitors with a Quest 2. While the idea of not needing space for monitors and have your setup anywhere with you is cool, the resolution just wasn't there yet.
- jachee 3y ago
  Yeah, this is where the Vision Pro has most of my interest and excitement. The reported[0][1] 3400PPI resolution on the thing is going to be next-level. My main use-case for it will be as a productivity device, and everything else will be a bonus. [0] https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-display-specs-leaked-heres-what-you-get https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-vision-pro-display-spec... [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/apple-vision-pro https://spectrum.ieee.org/apple-vision-pro
  - realharo 3y ago
    What matters for direct comparison with physical monitors is the PPI of the virtual "monitors", not of the tiny screens in the headset. If you have roughly 4K per eye in the headset that renders everything you see, then you can't expect the virtual equivalent of a 4K monitor that only takes up a part of your vision. Lower PPI virtual screens should be usable, but the text may still look bad on those when you can't do things like subpixel antialiasing (macOS on 27" 1440p also suffers from this). Especially if you need to render small text at an angle. If you only work with fairly large text or with pictures/video, that would probably be fine.

tmikaeld 3y ago

The alternatives have the whole unit in the headset in the front, which makes it very warm, sweaty and heavy for the neck - they're also nowhere near the required resolution for comfortably reading text in AR/VR, something that Apple seems to have solved.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago

Try a few first, not everyone's eyes can manage long exposure to have a screen strapped to it. Kids under 11 are generally not allowed to use it for that reason

CHY872 3y ago
It's also worth noting that this is dependent on model. E.g. I can handle an HP Reverb G2 indefinitely, but a Meta Quest Pro for only about 30 minutes before I feel ill.

BiteCode_dev 3y ago

I'm rooting for the simula one because of this.

crooked-v 3y ago

I think the factor you're missing is that even the Vision Pro is still only about hitting the bare minimum to be able to comfortably do what you're looking for in terms of specs (and maybe not even then in terms of weight). It's 'overkill' in terms of pricing, but only because we're still years if not decades away from the tech advances needed for true standalone AR glasses.

bookofjoe 3y ago
First Macintosh cost $7,400 in today's dollars when introduced after "Big Brother" Super Bowl ad in 1984
- ghaff 3y ago
  Though most “real” computers were quite expensive by todays standards at the time. The editor in chief of PC Magazine coined Machrones Law—the computer you want always costs $5000 dollars and that I held pretty well for a long time.
  - robocat 3y ago
    There's still a similar pattern in sports - the initial entry-level outlay for a variety of individual sports is $x. And the enthusiast price is similar across very different sports.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      There's clearly a lot more variety in sports though. It's probably hard to have a big entry-level outlay for running or even racquet sports though for the latter you'll often benefit from lessons and there can easily be ongoing costs for club memberships and the like. Whereas SCUBA, mountain biking, golf will be significant and we won't even talk about horseback riding, yachting, etc.

nocontextpls 3y ago

[dead]

fox86 3y ago

yes exactly - so many options with so many games and apps and social media related experiences and all I (and im sure many others) want is a solution to “how can i travel or be in a hotel and open vi/emacs/terminal and code as comfortably as with a huge monitor(s) home setup that’s impractical to haul around”. Even hauling around 16” laptops with a solid keyboard is a pain and can’t compete with a huge monitor(s) at home setup

ketzo 3y ago

Apple’s thesis seems to be that it is not overkill — that, in fact, every other option is significantly underkill, and that’s why you don’t use them despite knowing they exist.

nomel 3y ago

This is also my use case. I use a quest pro for this. It requires relatively large font. If the rumors about the pixels per degree are true, I’ll have trouble keeping my wallet in my pocket.

Vinnl 3y ago

Simula is targeting that use case: https://simulavr.com https://simulavr.com

ip26 3y ago

Do we have any indication whether it’s going to be responsive and fast enough for AR in sports? Maybe it’s a solution looking for a problem, but the best use of AR has always seemed to be for activities that require full attention. Flying a plane, driving a car, riding a bike, etc.

elishah 3y ago
Flying a plane, driving a car, and probably riding a bike seem like a poor match when any system malfunction can render you instantly blind. There might be some point in the future at which the risk/benefit tradeoff lands in favorable territory, but I wouldn't bet on it being any time soon.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

Closest thing I can think of would be Big Screen Beyond, which I believe will support 3DOF mode without trackers at some point (you should confirm this), and according to YouTuber “Sadly It’s Bradley” is decent for productivity work. But actually resolution is extremely important for that kind of work and only the highest resolution headsets available today can actually work well for that.