6 ms·

Facebook turns over chats to police resulting in abortion charges (2022)

54 points by mdhb 3y ago

poasdfere 3y ago
[flagged]
andrewfromx 3y ago
wow, "Celeste Burgess, who was 28 weeks pregnant at the time, and her mother Jessica Burgess, who allegedly performed an abortion without a licensed doctor present. The investigation began after police received a tip that the pair had illegally buried a stillborn child." This is in Nebraska FYI. And Meta emphasized that the search warrant it received was legal and valid and did not specifically mention abortion. All it said was "a stillborn baby being burned and buried" so...
- uberman 3y ago
  I was expecting to be outraged at Facebook, but reading how the warrant was cleverly phrased, I dont belive they did anything questionable.
  - andrewfromx 3y ago
    and 28 weeks vs 40 weeks makes no difference? Some would debate "a still born baby" implies full term?
    - readthenotes1 3y ago
      24 weeks is viable nowadays. 37 is full term So yeah, baby.
  - isodev 3y ago
    Handing over someone’s chats isn’t questionable? Let’s at least try not to normalize surveillance.
    - andrewfromx 3y ago
      wow, such good arguments on both sides. I need to re-watch 1984.
  - traviswt 3y ago
    It shouldn't be possible for them to turn over the chats. E2E encryption is tables stakes for messaging, but they won't do it because there's profit to be had in understanding users through their private messages. So yes, Facebook is still in the wrong here.
    - gmerc 3y ago
      They do offer an E2E platform Whatsapp which is wildly popular in the rest of the world AND the ability to have e2e encrypted chats on messenger too. So really what more to expect?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      How would E2E encryption stop law enforcement from subpoenaing data at-rest?
      - LargeTomato 3y ago
        I think E2E is encrypted at rest. Technically, all data over TLS is encrypted while in transit.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        E2EE strictly means that it is encrypted between endpoints. It makes no promises about how the keys are handled, how the data is protected at rest, or how secure either endpoint is. TLS is a version of this, but also demonstrates how useless such a version of encryption is if either endpoint is malicious. This is one of the reasons homomorphic encryption is interesting. It should enable this kinda of "total user control" over your data, but it's highly unlikely consumer systems will implement it.
    - fsociety 3y ago
      They have been rolling out E2E chats in messenger for a while now. So yes, they will and are doing it.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Facebook complies with legal warrant
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gmerc 3y ago
[flagged]
- andrewfromx 3y ago
  sounds like if the Burgess just did the same thing at 19 weeks this would be a non-story?
mhluongo 3y ago
Needs a (2022)
monetus 3y ago
When a company like FB disputes a warrant, what happens? What sort of precedents are there around that?
gremlinsinc 3y ago
I support a woman's right to choose but this is a nothing burger because they literally broke the law, and I mean they had plenty of time before 20 weeks to terminate. This had nothing to do with roe v Wade in any way and is just a click bait title.
- myko 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    Which is also the case for post delivery abortions, and they cannot understand why there is such a difference in opposition between the two
    - frob 3y ago
      What the actual fuck is a "post delivery abortion"?
      - KingLancelot 3y ago
        [dead]
      - ajhurliman 3y ago
        It’s possible to deliver at 28 weeks, use your imagination.
        frob 3y ago
        Stop using innuendo and say what you mean. It really helps with getting your point across. What I am assuming you mean is that doctors in the USA are killing live babies post delivery because the mother doesn't want them. That is infanticide. It is illegal. Full stop. And it is not happening at any sort or rate worth mentioning. The only place it happens is in the fever dreams of right-wing politicians who want to scare up support to ban abortion and the rubes who believe them. It is a lie designed to get people to react with disgust to something that isn't happening so that they can be manipulated into supporting conservative causes.
realitythreek 3y ago
The way to look at this is that this is what happens when you don’t have safe and legal medical abortions. Also this is one of the reasons why e2e encryption is so important. Meta had to comply with a warrant and wouldn’t have had to comply if it was impossible for them to.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  End-to-end encryption only prevents in-flight access of the data by your ISP. At either "end" that data can be trivially decrypted, and probably isn't even stored on an encrypted server to boot. It would require a lot more than E2EE to meaningfully resist government surveillance.
  - realitythreek 3y ago
    Just to clarify one possible misconception, the two ends would be the mother and daughter’s phones in this case. Meta shouldn’t have the key to decrypt accessible to them. You’re absolutely correct that it can be decrypted on either end but Meta should resist putting a backdoor in their app that allows this. If no other reason than it compels them to be in the middle of this criminal case. Also Facebook Messenger already enables this (https://www.facebook.com/help/messenger-app/1084673321594605 https://www.facebook.com/help/messenger-app/1084673321594605) but it’s not the default. It should be. This is just basic privacy and for sure won’t protect you from a focused government attack but it’s a start.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      This is the part where things get ambiguous and it's hard to say how things go. On paper, you are correct and I 100% agree with everything in this comment. In practice, I have no reason to believe anything Facebook says correlates with the implementation of their encryption. I want to believe it's a safe system, but as-always it comes down to trusting trust. Without accountability, it's hard to take WhatsApp or iMessage or any E2EE service at face value. E2EE leaves so many exploits on the table that I basically treat it as marketing fluff.
- 3y ago
temptemptemp111 3y ago
[dead]
mhluongo 3y ago
Even worse than Facebook chats... the most popular period tracking apps can be mass surveilled, and at least one has been fined by the FTC for selling menstrual data. My partner, a menstrual health advocate, decided to do something about it. She's launching a local-first, encrypted period tracking app later this summer [0]. We'd love feedback as the beta goes live! [0] - https://embody.space https://embody.space
- Dig1t 3y ago
  The Apple Health app does this already. Everything in HealthKit is e2e encrypted.
  - mhluongo 3y ago
    A few of my tech guy friends have given this knee-jerk response. However... Flo isn't. Clue isn't. Most apps women actually use aren't. HealthKit is cool, but we need apps that aren't sending data home *and* that solve common menstrual needs, and Apple's stuff barely scratches the surface.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  Why does menstual data have to be encrypted in the first place? Why can it not just live on the device? There are FOSS trackers (I've tried them; not a woman but I used them to help teach my wife to track her cycle) and they work wonders. There's one called Log28 on f-droid for anyone interested, that's the best one I found.
  - mhluongo 3y ago
    In states like Texas...? Like the article mentions, this data is sensitive and prosecutors are going after it. If your phone is in custody and doesn't have a strong passphrase, or uses touch ID... not great. I agree open source and local-only are great! Defense in depth is ideal
    - friend_and_foe 3y ago
friend_and_foe 3y ago
So, 1) this was after 20 weeks, which in their state was already illegal even before Roe v Wade was overturned, and 2) a warrant was issued by a judge for the information, which Facebook has an obligation to comply with. This is neither a case of abortion restrictions "in a post Roe America" nor is it a case of Facebook willy nilly turning information over to law enforcement on request. This article is an attempt to drum up controversy where there is none, or at Tue very least associate it with a controversial issue it has nothing to do with.
ssss11 3y ago
Does fb messenger claim e2e encryption? Does WhatsApp have e2e encryption? Are any of the chat apps truly e2e encrypted if the provider created your private key for you?

54 points by mdhb 3y ago

[flagged]

wow, "Celeste Burgess, who was 28 weeks pregnant at the time, and her mother Jessica Burgess, who allegedly performed an abortion without a licensed doctor present. The investigation began after police received a tip that the pair had illegally buried a stillborn child." This is in Nebraska FYI. And Meta emphasized that the search warrant it received was legal and valid and did not specifically mention abortion. All it said was "a stillborn baby being burned and buried" so...

uberman 3y ago
I was expecting to be outraged at Facebook, but reading how the warrant was cleverly phrased, I dont belive they did anything questionable.
- andrewfromx 3y ago
  and 28 weeks vs 40 weeks makes no difference? Some would debate "a still born baby" implies full term?
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    24 weeks is viable nowadays. 37 is full term So yeah, baby.
- isodev 3y ago
  Handing over someone’s chats isn’t questionable? Let’s at least try not to normalize surveillance.
  - andrewfromx 3y ago
    wow, such good arguments on both sides. I need to re-watch 1984.
- traviswt 3y ago
  It shouldn't be possible for them to turn over the chats. E2E encryption is tables stakes for messaging, but they won't do it because there's profit to be had in understanding users through their private messages. So yes, Facebook is still in the wrong here.
  - gmerc 3y ago
    They do offer an E2E platform Whatsapp which is wildly popular in the rest of the world AND the ability to have e2e encrypted chats on messenger too. So really what more to expect?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    How would E2E encryption stop law enforcement from subpoenaing data at-rest?
    - LargeTomato 3y ago
      I think E2E is encrypted at rest. Technically, all data over TLS is encrypted while in transit.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        E2EE strictly means that it is encrypted between endpoints. It makes no promises about how the keys are handled, how the data is protected at rest, or how secure either endpoint is. TLS is a version of this, but also demonstrates how useless such a version of encryption is if either endpoint is malicious. This is one of the reasons homomorphic encryption is interesting. It should enable this kinda of "total user control" over your data, but it's highly unlikely consumer systems will implement it.
  - fsociety 3y ago
    They have been rolling out E2E chats in messenger for a while now. So yes, they will and are doing it.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

Facebook complies with legal warrant

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

gmerc 3y ago

[flagged]

andrewfromx 3y ago
sounds like if the Burgess just did the same thing at 19 weeks this would be a non-story?

mhluongo 3y ago

Needs a (2022)

monetus 3y ago

When a company like FB disputes a warrant, what happens? What sort of precedents are there around that?

gremlinsinc 3y ago

I support a woman's right to choose but this is a nothing burger because they literally broke the law, and I mean they had plenty of time before 20 weeks to terminate. This had nothing to do with roe v Wade in any way and is just a click bait title.

myko 3y ago
[flagged]
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  Which is also the case for post delivery abortions, and they cannot understand why there is such a difference in opposition between the two
  - frob 3y ago
    What the actual fuck is a "post delivery abortion"?
    - KingLancelot 3y ago
      [dead]
    - ajhurliman 3y ago
      It’s possible to deliver at 28 weeks, use your imagination.
      - frob 3y ago
        Stop using innuendo and say what you mean. It really helps with getting your point across. What I am assuming you mean is that doctors in the USA are killing live babies post delivery because the mother doesn't want them. That is infanticide. It is illegal. Full stop. And it is not happening at any sort or rate worth mentioning. The only place it happens is in the fever dreams of right-wing politicians who want to scare up support to ban abortion and the rubes who believe them. It is a lie designed to get people to react with disgust to something that isn't happening so that they can be manipulated into supporting conservative causes.

realitythreek 3y ago

The way to look at this is that this is what happens when you don’t have safe and legal medical abortions. Also this is one of the reasons why e2e encryption is so important. Meta had to comply with a warrant and wouldn’t have had to comply if it was impossible for them to.

smoldesu 3y ago
End-to-end encryption only prevents in-flight access of the data by your ISP. At either "end" that data can be trivially decrypted, and probably isn't even stored on an encrypted server to boot. It would require a lot more than E2EE to meaningfully resist government surveillance.
- realitythreek 3y ago
  Just to clarify one possible misconception, the two ends would be the mother and daughter’s phones in this case. Meta shouldn’t have the key to decrypt accessible to them. You’re absolutely correct that it can be decrypted on either end but Meta should resist putting a backdoor in their app that allows this. If no other reason than it compels them to be in the middle of this criminal case. Also Facebook Messenger already enables this (https://www.facebook.com/help/messenger-app/1084673321594605 https://www.facebook.com/help/messenger-app/1084673321594605) but it’s not the default. It should be. This is just basic privacy and for sure won’t protect you from a focused government attack but it’s a start.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    This is the part where things get ambiguous and it's hard to say how things go. On paper, you are correct and I 100% agree with everything in this comment. In practice, I have no reason to believe anything Facebook says correlates with the implementation of their encryption. I want to believe it's a safe system, but as-always it comes down to trusting trust. Without accountability, it's hard to take WhatsApp or iMessage or any E2EE service at face value. E2EE leaves so many exploits on the table that I basically treat it as marketing fluff.
3y ago

temptemptemp111 3y ago

[dead]

mhluongo 3y ago

Even worse than Facebook chats... the most popular period tracking apps can be mass surveilled, and at least one has been fined by the FTC for selling menstrual data. My partner, a menstrual health advocate, decided to do something about it. She's launching a local-first, encrypted period tracking app later this summer [0]. We'd love feedback as the beta goes live! [0] - https://embody.space https://embody.space

Dig1t 3y ago
The Apple Health app does this already. Everything in HealthKit is e2e encrypted.
- mhluongo 3y ago
  A few of my tech guy friends have given this knee-jerk response. However... Flo isn't. Clue isn't. Most apps women actually use aren't. HealthKit is cool, but we need apps that aren't sending data home *and* that solve common menstrual needs, and Apple's stuff barely scratches the surface.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Why does menstual data have to be encrypted in the first place? Why can it not just live on the device? There are FOSS trackers (I've tried them; not a woman but I used them to help teach my wife to track her cycle) and they work wonders. There's one called Log28 on f-droid for anyone interested, that's the best one I found.
- mhluongo 3y ago
  In states like Texas...? Like the article mentions, this data is sensitive and prosecutors are going after it. If your phone is in custody and doesn't have a strong passphrase, or uses touch ID... not great. I agree open source and local-only are great! Defense in depth is ideal
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago

friend_and_foe 3y ago

So, 1) this was after 20 weeks, which in their state was already illegal even before Roe v Wade was overturned, and 2) a warrant was issued by a judge for the information, which Facebook has an obligation to comply with. This is neither a case of abortion restrictions "in a post Roe America" nor is it a case of Facebook willy nilly turning information over to law enforcement on request. This article is an attempt to drum up controversy where there is none, or at Tue very least associate it with a controversial issue it has nothing to do with.

ssss11 3y ago

Does fb messenger claim e2e encryption? Does WhatsApp have e2e encryption? Are any of the chat apps truly e2e encrypted if the provider created your private key for you?