4 ms·

So if framework can let you reuse the "shell" for 2-3 upgrade cycles until they have to change the motherboard, that's a lot better than having to buy an entire

So if framework can let you reuse the "shell" for 2-3 upgrade cycles until they have to change the motherboard, that's a lot better than having to buy an entire new laptop. It's not about keeping the same form factor forever, that's unrealistic. It's about reducing the amount of stuff you have to buy for each upgrade. Opening and closing stuff is realistic, if it's easy. I've opened and upgraded various components of my steam deck half a dozen times in the last 6 months. It's reduce, reuse, recycle. I don't own a framework.

coldtea 3y ago
>It's not about keeping the same form factor forever, that's unrealistic. It's not that unrealistic, if we constraint forever to like 10-15 years. In a lot of laptops I'd rather they keep most of the ports (and just e.g. update USB2 to USB3, and add a few new ones) but keep the form factor the shape. Often new keyboards (Apple is notorious, but holds for others) are worse than in the previous form factor. And when they go and "make it thinner", beyond some point, I'd often rather they added more battery, or added a space for an extra use installable SSD, or put bigger speaker cones, or just leave the space inside for better thermal dissipation...
CraigJPerry 3y ago
>> So if framework can let you reuse the "shell" for 2-3 upgrade cycles I badly want the framework laptop idea to succeed - the idea of re-using your old laptop battery as a battery bank when you upgrade, that's just brilliant. The idea of taking your old motherboard and sticking it in a slim case that bolts to the vesa mount on the back of your monitor, beautiful. However, it's far more expensive that just buying a MacBook. I bought the base model M1 Air for £999 at launch. I just sold it, what's this, 3 years later, with 90% battery life remaining for £600 plus shipping, after eBay & paypal's cut I'm £537. That's £462 for 3 years of having faster single core / interactive responsiveness than anything else at comparable price on the market. How much more would I have had to pay over a similar time frame for a slower heavier framework with much much less battery life. I considered the framework for this laptop cycle but instead I just traded up to a second hand 16" M1 Pro/16Gb/1Tb with 16 cycles count on the battery - i.e. brand new. Sure it's 25% slower than the equiv £2800 M2 Pro version but this cost me just £1500 delivered in pristine condition. I'm feeling very confident I'm going to come out ahead again in total cost of ownership.
- aCoreyJ 3y ago
  Those comparisons work against any Windows business laptop though, which Framework competes well with on price and features. No doubt Apple Silicon has really exposed AMD/Intel and x86/64 in general
- the-grump 3y ago
  Too bad Apple's hardware doesn't play nice with Linux.
  - themadturk 3y ago
    It's not doing to badly with Asahi Linux. There are still shortcomings to work out, but there are people using Asahi on their Apple Silicon machines for their daily driver.
    - the-grump 3y ago
      Yeah but it's nowhere near the choice you get with a typical x86_64 laptop with an AMD/Intel chipset. I have minor problems with my Lenovos and Framework, but by and large they do work out of the box.
      - Gigachad 3y ago
        Asahi Linux basically works. The main issue is that Linux software, especially proprietary, does not play nice with ARM.
        mkesper 3y ago
        That can only be proprietary sw. Almost every program I know works on arm64, thanks to availability of the platform through raspberry pi.
        Gigachad 3y ago
        Discord, Spotify, and MS Teams desktop apps are not usable. Some of them you can use the web apps, but for things like Spotify, not even the web app works since the web DRM doesn't work on ARM. My point is that this isn't Apple's doing. The hardware works fine and is mostly unrestricted. It's the end user software that causes major issues.
neuralRiot 3y ago
Upgradeable hardware sounds great in theory but doesn’t work in real life, just like PCs you configure it once and it will be that HW until it is obsolete for your purpose.
- zacmps 3y ago
  Terrible example, a large proportion of gamers (including myself and almost everyone I know with a PC) builds their own. Upgrades are piecemeal and old components are variously sold, given to friends, or re-used in home servers.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > just like PCs you configure it once and it will be that HW until it is obsolete for your purpose. Nearly every PC I own has had its disk replaced at least once, and many have more RAM than they started with; both of these massively extend their useful lifespan.
  - musicale 3y ago
    RAM, storage, and GPU upgrades are great. Unfortunately CPU upgrades often require a new socket/motherboard.
    - nine_k 3y ago
      CPU upgrades on desktops did not make much sense for several years, until Zen came out.
- KronisLV 3y ago
  > Upgradeable hardware sounds great in theory but doesn’t work in real life, just like PCs you configure it once and it will be that HW until it is obsolete for your purpose. This isn't really the case for many folks out there. If I get a better CPU, the previous one might go to one of my homelab servers (consumer hardware). The same goes for motherboards, that's how I got a second homelab server (bought a mobo with more RAM slots for main PC). I occasionally swap out drives and now my homelab servers also have SSDs like my desktop. Once I bought faster RAM for my desktop, I moved some of the old sticks to the servers. You can easily replace homelab servers with a family PC or another machine that you have (or just spare parts in case something fails) in the example and it will still make sense. Actually a lot of that hardware is also second hand - since it was easier to just get affordable first gen Ryzens for my desktop, instead of saving up money for a while. Those homelab servers both also use 200GEs because of the low TDP, which others might consider obsolete, but which have a second life here.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
I'm a huge Framework fan but I worry that the upgradeability produces more e-waste rather than less. I already see Framework laptop owners tossing mainboards every generation. I think the e-waste angle is the weakest- I like the upgradeability because it saves me money. As a cheap bastard I almost see it as a challenge to use my devices for as long as possible.
- LUmBULtERA 3y ago
  You know people who are literally tossing old mainboards? I’d be happy to take one off of someone’s hands if they’d otherwise be throwing it away.
- squarefoot 3y ago
  > I already see Framework laptop owners tossing mainboards every generation. That would be extremely stupid, especially after they released the case to turn the Framework mainboard into a mini PC. https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
pnpnp 3y ago
I love that they’re doing this. However, in my use-case I keep a laptop 5+ years now. At that point, it’s pretty worn out and usually warrants a total replacement. All the individual components keep me happy for so darn long now. After 5+ years, there have usually been pretty big improvements in every area.

coldtea 3y ago

>It's not about keeping the same form factor forever, that's unrealistic. It's not that unrealistic, if we constraint forever to like 10-15 years. In a lot of laptops I'd rather they keep most of the ports (and just e.g. update USB2 to USB3, and add a few new ones) but keep the form factor the shape. Often new keyboards (Apple is notorious, but holds for others) are worse than in the previous form factor. And when they go and "make it thinner", beyond some point, I'd often rather they added more battery, or added a space for an extra use installable SSD, or put bigger speaker cones, or just leave the space inside for better thermal dissipation...

CraigJPerry 3y ago

>> So if framework can let you reuse the "shell" for 2-3 upgrade cycles I badly want the framework laptop idea to succeed - the idea of re-using your old laptop battery as a battery bank when you upgrade, that's just brilliant. The idea of taking your old motherboard and sticking it in a slim case that bolts to the vesa mount on the back of your monitor, beautiful. However, it's far more expensive that just buying a MacBook. I bought the base model M1 Air for £999 at launch. I just sold it, what's this, 3 years later, with 90% battery life remaining for £600 plus shipping, after eBay & paypal's cut I'm £537. That's £462 for 3 years of having faster single core / interactive responsiveness than anything else at comparable price on the market. How much more would I have had to pay over a similar time frame for a slower heavier framework with much much less battery life. I considered the framework for this laptop cycle but instead I just traded up to a second hand 16" M1 Pro/16Gb/1Tb with 16 cycles count on the battery - i.e. brand new. Sure it's 25% slower than the equiv £2800 M2 Pro version but this cost me just £1500 delivered in pristine condition. I'm feeling very confident I'm going to come out ahead again in total cost of ownership.

aCoreyJ 3y ago
Those comparisons work against any Windows business laptop though, which Framework competes well with on price and features. No doubt Apple Silicon has really exposed AMD/Intel and x86/64 in general
the-grump 3y ago
Too bad Apple's hardware doesn't play nice with Linux.
- themadturk 3y ago
  It's not doing to badly with Asahi Linux. There are still shortcomings to work out, but there are people using Asahi on their Apple Silicon machines for their daily driver.
  - the-grump 3y ago
    Yeah but it's nowhere near the choice you get with a typical x86_64 laptop with an AMD/Intel chipset. I have minor problems with my Lenovos and Framework, but by and large they do work out of the box.
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      Asahi Linux basically works. The main issue is that Linux software, especially proprietary, does not play nice with ARM.
      - mkesper 3y ago
        That can only be proprietary sw. Almost every program I know works on arm64, thanks to availability of the platform through raspberry pi.
        Gigachad 3y ago
        Discord, Spotify, and MS Teams desktop apps are not usable. Some of them you can use the web apps, but for things like Spotify, not even the web app works since the web DRM doesn't work on ARM. My point is that this isn't Apple's doing. The hardware works fine and is mostly unrestricted. It's the end user software that causes major issues.

neuralRiot 3y ago

Upgradeable hardware sounds great in theory but doesn’t work in real life, just like PCs you configure it once and it will be that HW until it is obsolete for your purpose.

zacmps 3y ago
Terrible example, a large proportion of gamers (including myself and almost everyone I know with a PC) builds their own. Upgrades are piecemeal and old components are variously sold, given to friends, or re-used in home servers.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> just like PCs you configure it once and it will be that HW until it is obsolete for your purpose. Nearly every PC I own has had its disk replaced at least once, and many have more RAM than they started with; both of these massively extend their useful lifespan.
- musicale 3y ago
  RAM, storage, and GPU upgrades are great. Unfortunately CPU upgrades often require a new socket/motherboard.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    CPU upgrades on desktops did not make much sense for several years, until Zen came out.
KronisLV 3y ago
> Upgradeable hardware sounds great in theory but doesn’t work in real life, just like PCs you configure it once and it will be that HW until it is obsolete for your purpose. This isn't really the case for many folks out there. If I get a better CPU, the previous one might go to one of my homelab servers (consumer hardware). The same goes for motherboards, that's how I got a second homelab server (bought a mobo with more RAM slots for main PC). I occasionally swap out drives and now my homelab servers also have SSDs like my desktop. Once I bought faster RAM for my desktop, I moved some of the old sticks to the servers. You can easily replace homelab servers with a family PC or another machine that you have (or just spare parts in case something fails) in the example and it will still make sense. Actually a lot of that hardware is also second hand - since it was easier to just get affordable first gen Ryzens for my desktop, instead of saving up money for a while. Those homelab servers both also use 200GEs because of the low TDP, which others might consider obsolete, but which have a second life here.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

I'm a huge Framework fan but I worry that the upgradeability produces more e-waste rather than less. I already see Framework laptop owners tossing mainboards every generation. I think the e-waste angle is the weakest- I like the upgradeability because it saves me money. As a cheap bastard I almost see it as a challenge to use my devices for as long as possible.

LUmBULtERA 3y ago
You know people who are literally tossing old mainboards? I’d be happy to take one off of someone’s hands if they’d otherwise be throwing it away.
squarefoot 3y ago
> I already see Framework laptop owners tossing mainboards every generation. That would be extremely stupid, especially after they released the case to turn the Framework mainboard into a mini PC. https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case

pnpnp 3y ago

I love that they’re doing this. However, in my use-case I keep a laptop 5+ years now. At that point, it’s pretty worn out and usually warrants a total replacement. All the individual components keep me happy for so darn long now. After 5+ years, there have usually been pretty big improvements in every area.